front end flex

[2_door]

in my relentless pursuit of more flex, I am turning my attention to front end flex out of my D1.

Has anyone got any experience in using lower shock towers and if so, will the combination of long shocks, lower towers (within reason and calculated properly) really work to their full potential with the standard control arms or will the front control arms max out before the the shocks do :confused:

any help appreciated ;)

[TonyC]

in my relentless pursuit of more flex, I am turning my attention to front end flex out of my D1.

Has anyone got any experience in using lower shock towers and if so, will the combination of long shocks, lower towers (within reason and calculated properly) really work to their full potential with the standard control arms or will the front control arms max out before the the shocks do :confused:

any help appreciated ;)

To get more travel you need HIGHER, not lower towers to accommodate the longer closed length of the longer shocks, you get the increased travel due to the longer stroke.
You'll also need softer or slotted radius arms bushes to get the flex, and they will wear faster and/or result in worse on road handling.

Tony

[discowhite]

in my relentless pursuit of more flex, I am turning my attention to front end flex out of my D1.

Has anyone got any experience in using lower shock towers and if so, will the combination of long shocks, lower towers (within reason and calculated properly) really work to their full potential with the standard control arms or will the front control arms max out before the the shocks do :confused:

any help appreciated ;)

in short NO!
one thing a rover front end dose ok is flex UP...why do you want to limit up travell???
listen to tonyC

cheers phil

[long stroke]

go a 3 link setup:cool:

[Tusker]

The more you free up the front end, the more on-road drivability deteriorates.

There's a few threads on here about how the geometry of the radius arms act as an anti-roll bar on the axle housing.

In short:

First the bushes bind. Sort that out.

Then the shocks max out. Go longer etc etc.

Then the bushes are at their limit again.

Repeat until you run out of money and/or energy.

Regards
Max P

[HangOver]

i can understand the lower mount idea as the only time i loose traction is when the wheel drops into a rut or whole and the shocker isnt long enough.

The shorter mount is a cheap way so you dont need new shocks.

I guess best way though would be very long shocks and longer tower but would cost more.

Hmmm wouldn't a longer shock and moving it UP be the same as a standard shock at the original height for down travel?

[Slunnie]

Hmmm wouldn't a longer shock and moving it UP be the same as a standard shock at the original height for down travel?
No.

Lets say:
A 8" travel shock has a closed length of 14" (open length is then 22") - something close to original.
A 12" travel shock has a closed length of 18" (open length is then 30")

To fit the 12" travel shocks then you would raise the upper mount by 4" so that the closed position of the lower shock mount is then in the same position as it would be for a standard setup. The longer shock has an additional 4" of travel which will be found when the axle is fully dropped, so the suspension would drop 4" further than a standard setup which gives 4" of additional suspension travel.

Please also note that increased suspension travel doesn't necessarily mean that you will see improved articulation. They are different.

[SPROVER]

What is the best way to extend the front shock mount? Its something i have to do because my shockers are topping out.They are longer travel EFS ones.

[Cap]

More flex??? You got lockers front and back dude... you sure got some flex issues :D ;)

[Grimace]

You could fit some short body 10" travel shocks and holey bushes into the radius arms and away you go. That's all Fluffy has at the moment and it's sweet!

EDIT: I am looking to fit 12" short bodys in the near future but that will involve raised turrets.
Also anything more then 12" on the front radius arm design is over kill on a Landy.

[Dougal]

In a classic rangie the shock towers are already longer than they need to be. As a result 80 series landcruiser shocks fit in nicely.
They give 2" more stroke, but also have a closed length which fits the front end better.
The result is 3-4" more suspension travel than stock without tower modifications.

You will need longer brake lines too.

[HangOver]

You could fit some short body 10".

what are short body shock? I could just google :)

[HangOver]

In a classic rangie the shock towers are already longer than they need to be. As a result 80 series landcruiser shocks fit in nicely.

Is that the STANDARD 80 series shocks?

[Dougal]

Is that the STANDARD 80 series shocks?

I'm using Koni's for an 80 series.

[Slunnie]

what are short body shock? I could just google :)
Bilstein do the short bodys.

[Grimace]

Bilstein do the short bodys.

That's correct bilstein to have a shock branded as 'short body' unfortunately these are all eye to eye (not pin to pin like the rover front end), but in my case I was trying to imply that some shocks are longer compressed for the same given stroke.

There is quiet a few shock manufacturers that would have approx 10" travel shock that would fit well in a rangie using the standard turrets.

I beleive a compressed length of upto 350mm (base of pin to base of pin) is viable in a classic rangie (not sure on the discos), but it has been a long time since I got my own figures so I could be mistaken.

All my calculations I done in the past were based on a slow crawling type princible and no allowance for fast offroad. In fast paced scenarios it would be possible to compress a bumpstop enough to do damage to any shock that 'just' fits.

[Grimace]

I'm using Koni's for an 80 series.

Id be interested to find otu what the compressed and extended length is for these Konis. And other 80series shocks for that matter.

[Dougal]

Id be interested to find otu what the compressed and extended length is for these Konis. And other 80series shocks for that matter.

Why didn't you ask sooner?

80 series lexus landcruiser front
13.9" compressed (353mm)
24.2" extended (615mm)
rear
14.6/24.4"

My 80 series konis
580mm extended, 230mm stroke


RRC Stock
10" compressed 254mm
18" extended 454mm


VEHICLE.........OPEN....CLOSED..TRAVEL..MOUNT top / bot

(SNIP)
Nissan GQ F.....478.....293.....185.....Pin / Pin
Nissan GQ R.....620.....390.....230.....Eye / Eye
Nissan GU F.....478.....293.....185.....Pin / Pin
Nissan GU R.....622.....390.....232.....Eye / Eye

[Slunnie]

Those Koni lengths are not the same for all manufacturers.

I'm pretty sure Billy and Rancho GQ/GU rears are about 650-655 open

[Dougal]

Those Koni lengths are not the same for all manufacturers.

I'm pretty sure Billy and Rancho GQ/GU rears are about 650-655 open

Only the ones I've listed as "my 80 series koni" are konis which I measured from the first step on the pin to the step on the other pin. The ones called "RRC Stock" are some red unbranded things measured the same way.
The other data is from various sources.

[Tombie]

Why didn't you ask sooner?

80 series lexus landcruiser front
13.9" compressed (353mm)
24.2" extended (615mm)
rear
14.6/24.4"

My 80 series konis
580mm 22.8" extended, 230mm stroke So they're shorter than other aftermarket?


RRC Stock Sorry - This ones incorrect
10" compressed 254mm
18" extended 454mm


VEHICLE.........OPEN....CLOSED..TRAVEL..MOUNT top / bot

(SNIP)
Nissan GQ F.....478.....293.....185.....Pin / Pin
Nissan GQ R.....620.....390.....230.....Eye / Eye
Nissan GU F.....478.....293.....185.....Pin / Pin
Nissan GU R.....622.....390.....232.....Eye / Eye

OME (ARB) shock - 23.7" 602mm open (front)
OME (ARB) shock - 23.0" 584mm open (rear)

GENUINE shock - 21.5" 546mm open (front)
GENUINE shock - 21.7" 551mm open (rear)

[HangOver]

Why didn't you ask sooner?

My 80 series konis
580mm extended, 230mm stroke


I Assume you needed longer bump stops?

[Tusker]

The need for bigger bump stops is factored in with the shock towers. Raising the top mount? Std bump stop might be ok. Putting a longer shock in the standard tower? Definitely.

Regards
Max P

[HangOver]

The need for bigger bump stops is factored in with the shock towers. Raising the top mount? Std bump stop might be ok. Putting a longer shock in the standard tower? Definitely.

Regards
Max P

Man this is getting confusing, so if you put a longer shock in to get EXTRA travel you have to either raise the mount or use a bigger bump stop which REDUCES the travel?

I suppose as long as the extra travel you get is more than the higher turret or longer than the bump stop then you benefit.

[Dougal]

I Assume you needed longer bump stops?

I have 1 inch longer bumpstops because I have a big diesel hiding under the bonnet. But that's not related to the longer shocks.

The stock shock towers are longer than they should be, this lets you fit a longer shock without packing bottomout bumpers.
Regardless, you need to do a lot of careful measuring before you decide to change anything with your suspension.

[Dougal]

OME (ARB) shock - 23.7" 602mm open (front)
OME (ARB) shock - 23.0" 584mm open (rear)

GENUINE shock - 21.5" 546mm open (front)
GENUINE shock - 21.7" 551mm open (rear)

Who makes the genuine shocks and what do they look like?
The shocks that were fitted to the front of mine (as measured above) are red and have "made in England" stamped into them. No other useful markings.

How are you measuring those those shocks?

[Slunnie]

Man this is getting confusing, so if you put a longer shock in to get EXTRA travel you have to either raise the mount or use a bigger bump stop which REDUCES the travel?

I suppose as long as the extra travel you get is more than the higher turret or longer than the bump stop then you benefit.
Go back to page 1.

The reason that either the turret is raised, or the bumpstop is lowered is so that the shock isn't asked to close more than its designed closed length - thats the only reason.


No.

Lets say:
A 8" travel shock has a closed length of 14" (open length is then 22") - something close to original.
A 12" travel shock has a closed length of 18" (open length is then 30")

To fit the 12" travel shocks then you would raise the upper mount by 4" so that the closed position of the lower shock mount is then in the same position as it would be for a standard setup. The longer shock has an additional 4" of travel which will be found when the axle is fully dropped, so the suspension would drop 4" further than a standard setup which gives 4" of additional suspension travel.

Please also note that increased suspension travel doesn't necessarily mean that you will see improved articulation. They are different.

[D110V8D]

I've just been through this. My goal was to get the most out of the front without modding towers or brake lines etc.

I went with Pro Comp shocks front and rear.

Front open/closed 600 -- 370 (Springs are Les Richmond purple yellow 220 pound 15.5" free length)
Rear open/closed 600 -- 375 (springs are Les Richmond Orange green 320 pound 17" free length)

They're actually listed as 610 open on the website but when I measured them they're closer to 600 base of pin to base of pin and centre of eye to base of pin.

Anyway the way I worked it out was (hope it's right. No doubt I'll be told it's not) resting height of shock is 520 base of pin to base of pin, minus the bumpstop clearance which is 130, minus an extra 20mm for compression is 370 compressed. So according to this all that is needed for peace of mind is to space the bumpstop down by 10mm or so just in case.

I did the same calculation on the rear and came up with 530 resting height minus 140 bumpstop clearance minus extra 20mm which gives 370mm compressed. I haven't taken into account the angle of the rear shock though I believe it'll be fine as is.

With the front fully extended (only done on the high lift jack mind you not in real world yet) that is the shock is topped out the brake lines feel fine and the spring only just starts to dislocate.

On the rear fully extended brake line is absolutely fine and spring only just starts to dislocate as well.

Going bush next week so will test it all out but I'm pretty confident it'll be fine.:)

[Dougal]

I've just been through this. My goal was to get the most out of the front without modding towers or brake lines etc.

I went with Pro Comp shocks front and rear.

Front open/closed 600 -- 370 (Springs are Les Richmond purple yellow 220 pound 15.5" free length)
Rear open/closed 600 -- 375 (springs are Les Richmond Orange green 320 pound 17" free length)

How are you running standard brake lines with shocks that length?
I went 2" extended and they're just okay.

Why soo firm with the springs? I once had 240lb/in front and 340 lb/in rear and hated it.
I'm currently running 180 lb/in front and 240lb/in rear. This with a 4BD1 holding the front end down.

[D110V8D]

Brake lines are extended but not to the point of breaking....well according to the grab and shake method of testing that is!:eek::D:D
Like I said I lifted it up till it was hanging in the wind so to speak and it seems fine. Under real world conditions it may not be, that is when fully crossed up there may be extra? travel either side? Does that make sense?:D


Too firm? I like it. Front springs are a hand me down from my old rangie. The 110 has a winch and bar etc on front as did the ranga.

Rear's I have only just up graded from 270 pound 17" free length to the 320's because they were sagging a little and the car was pulling mono's when I hooked up the trailer.:eek: Fridge, tools, spares, recovery gear, drawer unit etc all live permanently in the back.

[Dougal]

Brake lines are extended but not to the point of breaking....well according to the grab and shake method of testing that is!:eek::D:D
Like I said I lifted it up till it was hanging in the wind so to speak and it seems fine. Under real world conditions it may not be, that is when fully crossed up there may be extra? travel either side? Does that make sense?:D


Too firm? I like it. Front springs are a hand me down from my old rangie. The 110 has a winch and bar etc on front as did the ranga.

Rear's I have only just up graded from 270 pound 17" free length to the 320's because they were sagging a little and the car was pulling mono's when I hooked up the trailer.:eek: Fridge, tools, spares, recovery gear, drawer unit etc all live permanently in the back.

Did you check full lock at full extension too? That's where it gets tightest.

I didn't notice you were running a 110, I'm running a rangie so the spring rates make sense now.

[D110V8D]

Did you check full lock at full extension too? That's where it gets tightest.

I didn't notice you were running a 110, I'm running a rangie so the spring rates make sense now.

:eek::eek: Uhh....well....uhh.....NO! lol.....I'm going to have to go and check it all again now. Dang it.:D:D:D

It's like I always say to Fred Smith.....if it's all set up right and doesn't look butchered I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!:D

[rick130]

<snip>

Repeat until you run out of money and/or energy.

Regards
Max P

:lol2:

:twobeers:

[long stroke]

I'm not shore if you have seen this link, but i have been following it since the start, i think it is a major break through in the endless journey to get more flex out of the front radious arms in a rover:cool:

Outer Limits 4x4 Board :: View topic - Rover front end mega flex (http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic192668.php)
Enjoy.

TIM.

[INter674]

hi mark

we went there and tried all of the above suggestion, eg., holy bushes, yes flexed more but they lasted only a few months before they collapsed, longer shocks, did not work because the bushes limited the travel anyway. The best solution is a 3 link I'd say, but as Stooge said, why bother with lockers, you might also get very scary body roll, even scarier than now!!!

[HangOver]

ok so whats this three link thing?
i looked on the net and it appears you remove the radius arms and put an arm to the top of the diff housing.
does that about sum it up?

[rovercare]

ok so whats this three link thing?
i looked on the net and it appears you remove the radius arms and put an arm to the top of the diff housing.
does that about sum it up?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/74734-discowhites-d1-ute-23.html

[HangOver]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/74734-discowhites-d1-ute-23.html

thanks for the link, so yes more or less, looks a fair bit of work though.
Are they legal?

[HBWC]

collar taff next time you see his he has one ih the frontof his 90

[Slunnie]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/74734-discowhites-d1-ute-23.html

Thats the Safarigard way of doing it.

The stronger way to do it is by running 2 lower links to locate the axle and take the forces, 1 upper link to prevent rotation and a panhard rod for lateral location. This is the way that I would go about doing it. Well, actually for the road I would probably do 5-link which is the same with an additional upper (ie 1 upper on each side) as I understand it is a more stable setup and it still produces excellent flex. The 3-link is about outright articulation and would require rose joints (heims) for it to track straight on the road as a regular 2-lower, 1-offset upper setup.