Hand cranking a Holden 186

[TJWA]

Landy Andy <---- his fault :wasntme:gave me a crank handle a while back so I though I'd try it out the other day on my LWB Holden 6. WELL! I swear if I was human it would have broken my arm as it kicked back like a mule (I know, I'm one of those people who just has to try stupid things). Is there a proper or should I say say "safe" technique to hand cranking an engine, and is it actually possible with a red motor? I'm a little worried about trying it again. It would be handy if my starter motor ever gave in though and I was stuck in the middle of nowhere.:cool:

[chazza]

G'day Travis,
It is quite possible to hand start any engine provided that:
1. The ignition timing is perfectly set (might be why you are having difficulties).
2. The choke is engaged (if the engine is cold) and there is fresh fuel in the carburettor.
3. The ignition is turned on.
4. Make sure that your thumb is outside the handle in case it kicks back :eek:

I used to make the driving students start the Army International trucks with the starting handle, all of them were successful,

Cheers Charlie

[Shonky]

1. Don't wrap your thumbs around the handle.
2. Pull, don't push.
3. Make sure it is in Neutral... :p

I don't see why you couldn't crank a 186. Just last weekend I watched someone crank start an early Rangie, and previously I have seen a 101 crank started (same engine).

Although he was unsuccessful, I was also present while Steve D. tried crank starting a Centurion at Corowa - now THAT is a challenge!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I'm surprised that anyone fitted the cranking dog to the Holden engine in the first place!

You obviously don't have the engine driven fans, as they usually cross the path of the crankshaft centre line and I'm surprised that the front of your engine is low enough to get the starting handle under the bottom of the radiator.

At the AMVCS Winter Rally all the LR101 people had starting handle practice on their vehicles and all of them got going without a problem. Something that surprised me.


<snip> Although he was unsuccessful, I was also present while Steve D. tried crank starting a Centurion at Corowa - now THAT is a challenge!Was Steve starting the V12 Meteor engine or the 4 cyl APU engine in the Cent'?

Maybe it wouldn't start because not enough people supplied petrol to keep it running.

Diana

[Bigbjorn]

You would need to retard the ignition timing on the Holden to stop it kicking back when hand-cranking. It probably has about 10 degrees initial advance, too much to easily hand crank. About one degree retard would be good. Old cars in the days of crank handles had manual advance/retard distributors. One fully retarded the timing before hand cranking.

I too am surprised than anyone bothered to fit a crank dog to a late model engine.

[Shonky]

Was Steve starting the V12 Meteor engine or the 4 cyl APU engine in the Cent'?

Maybe it wouldn't start because not enough people supplied petrol to keep it running.


The meteor IIRC... :eek:

Certainly the amount of exertion put in was commensurate with cranking a V12 - and Steve is no pip-squeak!

[TJWA]

I'm surprised that anyone fitted the cranking dog to the Holden engine in the first place!

You obviously don't have the engine driven fans, as they usually cross the path of the crankshaft centre line and I'm surprised that the front of your engine is low enough to get the starting handle under the bottom of the radiator.

At the AMVCS Winter Rally all the LR101 people had starting handle practice on their vehicles and all of them got going without a problem. Something that surprised me.

Was Steve starting the V12 Meteor engine or the 4 cyl APU engine in the Cent'?

Maybe it wouldn't start because not enough people supplied petrol to keep it running.

Diana

Yep, looks like a previous owner went to the trouble. I can confirm the fan has been removed in place of a thermo. It does also appear to sit low in the engine bay, I compared it to my Ex Army LWB Holden 6 and noticed the engine is about two inches higher and the centre of the crank does not line up with the hole.

OK, so the consensus so far is to:

1. The ignition timing is perfectly set or retarded?
2. The choke is engaged (if the engine is cold) and there is fresh fuel in the carburettor.
3. The ignition is turned on.
4. Make sure it is in Neutral... :p
5. Make sure that your thumb is outside the handle in case it kicks back :eek:
6. Pull, don't push

[Scouse]

the 4 cyl APU engine in the Cent'?

I've cranked quite a few of those over the years :D.

[Shonky]

I've cranked quite a few of those over the years :D.

:lol2:

:D

[Veryan]

Ok, dont mean to confuse you even more...but when I was round at Lieutenant Rovers joint, we successfully crank started his S2a...he showed me a trick or two...

1; Give the accelerator a few dabs to get some fresh fuel into the carbie
2; Keep thumbs outside,
3; We did pushed it over, until you could feel it compressing, and then...
4...gave it a good push....

Im sure this would work the same as if you pulled it....

Now...anyone game enough to have tried crank starting a 2.25 Diesel? 23:1 compression ratio??!!! Is there any way of reducing the compression to start one on the handle???

[HBWC]

yep had to do it regualy when i was living in qld once warm it was easy when cold we useto loosen of acopple of the glow plugs

[Blknight.aus]

I do it by inserting washers under the exhaust valve rockers (stops them from closing completly) on 3 of the cylinders then leaving the glow plugs on while I crank it over with the hand throttle set.

While Im doing that I have the propane torch heating the inlet manifold.

when it catches on the one cylinder you just pull the wire tabs on the washers to get the valves to operate normally then put the rocker cover back on.

Its no fun but its doable if you have to.

[chazza]

I'm surprised that anyone fitted the cranking dog to the Holden engine in the first place!

Diana

If starting is all that is required, I see your point; however; don't forget that a starting handle is extremely useful when: setting the points; setting the valve clearances; moving an immobilised car short distances (remove the spark plugs and leave in top gear),

Cheers Charlie

[rfurzer]

I had a crank handle on my old rangie. I never attempted to start it 'tho.
It was very useful for setting the timing.
I even used it to get out of a nasty bog- took out the plugs and wound it out in reverse/ LR.

My Stage 1 series 3 Isuzu has the spot in the grille for the handle. There isnt (of course) the dog on the crank pulley 'tho. That would be interesting to crank start (olympic sport).

[mick88]

Many years ago I had a Suzuki Two Stroke 540cc 4WD and it could be hand started by jacking one rear wheel off the ground and then giving the wheel a flick whilst the vehicle was in top gear. They jump around a bit on the jack, but if you are stuck out in the bush it's better than a long walk home. Wouldn't want the "Worksafe" man looking over your shoulder though.

Mick :)

[reubsrover]

Hi Mick,

Someone was telling me more about this technique just the other day. Do you know any more details? You only need one wheel off the ground? I suppose that would depend on your diff. And then it's a quick run around to the clutch before it slips off the jack...:(

What I really want to know is apart from the obvious safety concern of vehicle slipping off jack or axel stands is it realatively safe?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Mick,
<snip>
What I really want to know is apart from the obvious safety concern of vehicle slipping off jack or axel stands is it realatively safe?It's best done with someone in the drivers seat and no it's not safe as you can lose fingers and break arms etc if they get caught by the wheel kicking back or the engine starting with your arms still on the wheel.

It is far better to push start the vehicle.

[JDNSW]

Ok, dont mean to confuse you even more...but when I was round at Lieutenant Rovers joint, we successfully crank started his S2a...he showed me a trick or two...

1; Give the accelerator a few dabs to get some fresh fuel into the carbie
2; Keep thumbs outside,
3; We did pushed it over, until you could feel it compressing, and then...
4...gave it a good push....

Im sure this would work the same as if you pulled it....

Now...anyone game enough to have tried crank starting a 2.25 Diesel? 23:1 compression ratio??!!! Is there any way of reducing the compression to start one on the handle???

Pushing on a crankhandle is very dangerous, as if the engine kicks, it is almost certain to break bones. If it kicks while pulling, and with the thumb on the same side of the handle as the fingers, it will simply pull out of your hand, at the very worst losing a bit of skin. If pushing, and it kicks, with your arm braced straight and your weight behind it, you can expect that the sudden lack of resistance when your wrist or arm breaks is likely to see your face coming in unpleasantly close contact with the crank handle as you fall forward into it.

The first fifty years or so of motoring, when crank starting was commonplace saw many such incidents, and led to the rule to never push on the crankhandle.

As an aside, the owners manual for the Cadillac V16 of the early thirties allegedly read "A starting handle is not provided, as it is impractical to turn this engine by hand".

Series 3 Landrovers would seem to be among the last production cars to come with a crankhandle, which, as pointed out, are useful for other things than starting.

Having learnt to drive on a Ford T, I was taught crank starting as part of my initial driver education when I was about twelve.

John

[reubsrover]

It's best done with someone in the drivers seat and no it's not safe as you can lose fingers and break arms etc if they get caught by the wheel kicking back or the engine starting with your arms still on the wheel.

It is far better to push start the vehicle.


Yes I'd think all other options should be exhausted first but stuck somewhere where push starting is impossible (sand) out in the middle of nowhere it'd be nice to be able to get the vehicle going anyway possible.

So if you're stuck in valley (push starting impossible) miles from help, battery's dead, and you need help fast is this your last option to get the car going?

[mick88]

Well...How Safe is Safe?
Every time you drive out the front gate do you really know if you are going to make it back alive or, in one piece......the roads are a "warzone"
so we risk our life every day.
Like I said its an emergency starting strategy than can be applied when other options like towing, jump starting, pushing or cranking are not available. A hand throttle or even manual choke are a bonus to to just sneak the idle speed up a touch so the vehicle doesn't chug and rock around so much...remember it's in top gear. As for how many wheels you have to jack off the ground, well that depends on the type of differential fitted to the vehicle.

cheers, Mick :)

[Bigbjorn]

Pushing on a crankhandle is very dangerous, as if the engine kicks, it is almost certain to break bones. If it kicks while pulling, and with the thumb on the same side of the handle as the fingers, it will simply pull out of your hand, at the very worst losing a bit of skin. If pushing, and it kicks, with your arm braced straight and your weight behind it, you can expect that the sudden lack of resistance when your wrist or arm breaks is likely to see your face coming in unpleasantly close contact with the crank handle as you fall forward into it.

The first fifty years or so of motoring, when crank starting was commonplace saw many such incidents, and led to the rule to never push on the crankhandle.

As an aside, the owners manual for the Cadillac V16 of the early thirties allegedly read "A starting handle is not provided, as it is impractical to turn this engine by hand".

Series 3 Landrovers would seem to be among the last production cars to come with a crankhandle, which, as pointed out, are useful for other things than starting.

Having learnt to drive on a Ford T, I was taught crank starting as part of my initial driver education when I was about twelve.

John

Memories of learning to drive on 1920's and 1930's cars. Handbrake on, gearbox in neutral, set hand throttle, pull out choke, retard ignition, check if the glass bowl under the vacuum tank shows fuel, turn engine over a couple of turns with ignition off, or give two pumps of the Kigas, ignition on and crank. The biggest engines I can remember cranking by hand regularly were Dodge and Plymouth side valve sixes. During the war and during the period of rationing and shortages after, my dad always cranked his 1938 Dodge to extend battery life. He had been a telephone technician and made a trickle charger from old radio parts. He installed a plug on the dash and would plug the charger in through the driver's window when he put the car away for the night. New batteries were both hard to get and on priority number. My family needed to keep new batteries for the mail cars and trucks.

I bet a big Cadillac V16 with four cylinders at a time coming up on their compression strokes would be a real bloody joy to crank. Interestingly, the Meadows diesel 6 in the 1947 Thornycroft had a crank handle. This would have been impossible to turn over by hand without removing injectors. I can't recall it having a decompression control.

[Timj]

Hi Mick,

Someone was telling me more about this technique just the other day. Do you know any more details? You only need one wheel off the ground? I suppose that would depend on your diff. And then it's a quick run around to the clutch before it slips off the jack...:(

What I really want to know is apart from the obvious safety concern of vehicle slipping off jack or axel stands is it realatively safe?

I wonder if there would be a safe way to do this? I was thinking wrap a snatch strap a couple of times round the wheel so that when you pull on it it spins the wheel. Theoretically it should be ok because as it is pulled it loosens itself and comes off the wheel and if the engine does start it does the same. No hands anywhere near the wheel, have someone sitting in the car so if it comes off the jack they can stand on the brakes. If it does take off at least it would be going away from you as well. You could even have another vehicle pull the strap if you needed a good spin but that probably reduces the safety again.

Seems reasonable to me :). (that doesn't always mean it is, of course)

TimJ.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Tim

We could all get a second groove around the rim of our tyres with a knotch in it. Then we would have a length of cord with a wooden T handle so we could pull start it like a lawn mower!

All we'd need then would be a BFG to get our BFG's turning! :D

Diana

BFG1 = Big Friendly Giant
BFG2 = B F Goodrich

[Timj]

Now you see Diana, that also sounds reasonable, which just goes to prove I don't have a very good reasonable meter :).

TimJ.

[wagoo]

Hi Mick,

Someone was telling me more about this technique just the other day. Do you know any more details? You only need one wheel off the ground? I suppose that would depend on your diff. And then it's a quick run around to the clutch before it slips off the jack...:(

What I really want to know is apart from the obvious safety concern of vehicle slipping off jack or axel stands is it realatively safe?

I used to frequently start my old Holden powered 6x6 Landy with this method, and if you have adequate wheel arch clearance(I always do) it is relatively easy and safe. With standad open diffs you only jack one wheel off the ground and place gear lever in top gear(2wd or centre diff unlocked). With 4.7:1 diffs, due to differential action and the series high range ratio, one turn of the wheel equals around 2.7 turns of the engine, which is quite manageable with lug tyres to grab hold of.With constant 4wd transfercase and 3.54:1 diffs, 5th gear would give about 1 turn of the engine for 1 turn of the wheel I think, dependant on t/case high range ratio the vehicle is fitted with.
Never had a wheel kick back, but if concerned, the same procedure would apply as crank handle starting,as to retarding ignition.
Wagoo.

[wagoo]

Memories of learning to drive on 1920's and 1930's cars. Handbrake on, gearbox in neutral, set hand throttle, pull out choke, retard ignition, check if the glass bowl under the vacuum tank shows fuel, turn engine over a couple of turns with ignition off, or give two pumps of the Kigas, ignition on and crank. The biggest engines I can remember cranking by hand regularly were Dodge and Plymouth side valve sixes. During the war and during the period of rationing and shortages after, my dad always cranked his 1938 Dodge to extend battery life. He had been a telephone technician and made a trickle charger from old radio parts. He installed a plug on the dash and would plug the charger in through the driver's window when he put the car away for the night. New batteries were both hard to get and on priority number. My family needed to keep new batteries for the mail cars and trucks.

I bet a big Cadillac V16 with four cylinders at a time coming up on their compression strokes would be a real bloody joy to crank. Interestingly, the Meadows diesel 6 in the 1947 Thornycroft had a crank handle. This would have been impossible to turn over by hand without removing injectors. I can't recall it having a decompression control.

They used to crank start the 8.4 litre Gardner 6LWs during the war on the Scammell Pioneers.Apparently there was a large pulley fitted to the crank handle. It was a 3 man job with one on the handle and the other 2 tugging on a rope wound around the pulley.
Wagoo.

[mick88]

It's off the track a bit but it's a funnny story....now anyway.
Years ago my father bought a new lawn mower, a 1965 Rover 4 Stroke. We still have the body, it has the date cast into the front of it. Anyway this new fancy mower of the day had a one of those throw away American alloy four strokes (not a B&S but some other) and a flash new starting system. A spring loaded contraption that you wound up, then flicked a lever to start it after you set the throttle etc. Well one day after we had owned it for a few years dad comes home from work and mum says to him, Bob our neighbour had come over and borrowed our lawn mower as his had broken down. Dad's reaction was "Oh Christ"..."the sarter on it is crook"
Well ten minutes later Bob shows up with his hand all bandaged up, apparently the locking mechanism had failed and when you flipped the lever to start it the winder would flyinto reverse...thus Bob got a good hard belt accross the back of the hand.
Probally a lesson there...never borrow things.
Well after that it had a starting cord for the rest of its days.
Further to the story, dad was telling me what a great mower it had been and how many quid he had payed for it back in 1965, and it was coming up to it's Twenty First Birthday soon.
Well...it didn't make it, Fifteen minutes later it threw a leg out of bed mid lawn. Dad almost cried he was so dissappointed.
A Honda engine transplant was the answer after that.
I know it's not a Landy story but I smile every time I think about it.

Cheers, Mick :)

[korg20000bc]

One of my mate's lawn mower pull starter broke and now he puts the right sized socket on his cordless drill, fits it to the bolt and the drill does the work.