Vibration 2008 Defender 130

[lrbob]

Hi, My 2008 130 has driveline vibration over 90Km/hr, severe under load disappearing upon coasting. Disappears when rear prop shaft removed and travel on front only. Gearbox and transfer case eliminated as causes as has rear diff. New rear prop shaft fitted. This has occurred from new and I know of 2 other cases in new vehicles and 1 from another owner. However have spoken to some owners who do not have the problem. Please, can anyone help?

[Grockle]

Hi, My 2008 130 has driveline vibration over 90Km/hr, severe under load disappearing upon coasting. Disappears when rear prop shaft removed and travel on front only. Gearbox and transfer case eliminated as causes as has rear diff. New rear prop shaft fitted. This has occurred from new and I know of 2 other cases in new vehicles and 1 from another owner. However have spoken to some owners who do not have the problem. Please, can anyone help?

It could be out of ballance,can you see if any of the weights on the prop have come off.

[spudboy]

There was an issue with handbrakes being out of round. Warranty replacement. Try searching on that, as I can't remember the details.

HTH
David

[lrbob]

It could be out of ballance,can you see if any of the weights on the prop have come off.

Thanks for reply. Weights have been checked. Perhaps I should look for a driveline expert.

[lrbob]

There was an issue with handbrakes being out of round. Warranty replacement. Try searching on that, as I can't remember the details.

HTH
David

Thanks David. Vehicle has been tested with handbrake drum removed. Vibes still there.

[spudboy]

Hmmm - that doesn't leave a lot left to check does it?

What about the obvious one of wheel balance? Although, if it only occurs under load and disappears when coasting, that does not seem likely.

If you get desperate you might try changing all the wheels with those from another LR and see if that is any different. Tyres could be out of round. What size are the tyres? Standard?

Is it lifted?

[slt]

Interesting ... because mine does the same thing. 95-105km/h under load, there's some light vibration and groaning noise coming from somewhere in the drive train. I have written an earlier post (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/89019-straining-noise-puma-transmission-opinions-please.html) about this back in October, but I haven't updated it because I have yet to receive a proper explanation from dealer/LR.

An inital workshop diagnosis (interstate, since I was on holidays) suggested there may be something wrong with the 5th/6th synchro hubs (because apparently that was a known issue). My home dealer then had it for a day and could not find anything that would point to transmission problems (ie. no metal shavings in the gearbox oil etc). They initially tried to blame my setup (ie. relatiely heavy camper on the back), but I told them wrong answer and to look again. On the second day a rather switched-on mechanic found something that might be the cause. We had it up on a hoist and spun it up to 90-odd, and sure enough one of the wheels started to have a life of its own. Diagnosis: off-round wheel(s).

I'm still awaiting the outcome of a warranty claim, and as a matter of fact are getting somewhat impatient with the unresponsiveness of both my dealer and LR. They'll both be receiving nastygrams shortly...

Having said all that, I'm not entirely convinced for the same reason spudboy isn't, because it only appears to happen under load. Secondly, I had some vibrations come from my brand new 200Tdi 110 back when, and they also blamed off-round wheels for that at first. At the time I just learned to live with it. This time I won't, and I'll be starting to make some noise shortly... (Scouse, if you're reading this you're welcome to point that out to your service manager.)

[philco]

Met a guy a few months ago that had a F250 travelling around australia, he had same problem and found the welding of the steel wheel was faulty and let air escape from the rim slowly, he thought it was a slow tyre leak at first.
Ford replaced the rims for him as was under warranty.

[spudfan]

There are alignment markings on the sliding member of the rear propeller shaft on the 200 tdi. If fitted incorrectly it will cause this noise and vibration at certain speeds. This has happened to me before. There are none on the shorter front propeller shafts. It could be the same on the Puma as there are balancing weights on it. Will send a copy of the relevant workshop manual page if it will help

[spudboy]

SpudFan's got a good point.

Anyone know if the rear prop shafts on a Puma should be in-phase or out of phase? Some models require the UJs to be aligned, but some require them to be offset...... although I thought this was only on front prop-shafts.

[lrbob]

Hmmm - that doesn't leave a lot left to check does it?

What about the obvious one of wheel balance? Although, if it only occurs under load and disappears when coasting, that does not seem likely.

If you get desperate you might try changing all the wheels with those from another LR and see if that is any different. Tyres could be out of round. What size are the tyres? Standard?

Is it lifted?

Thanks. Swapped wheels and tyres with another vehicle with no vibration and vibes still there. No not lifted.

[lrbob]

Thanks SLT. Gearbox and transfer case were swapped out with a new vehicle with no result. Wheels & tryes swapped with a good vehicle with no result. Dealer tried hard without success. Land Rover now say it must be caused by the towbar, sidesteps,snorkel, driving lights etc fitted even though the problem was there from new before any accessories fitted. Dealer found the same fault in 2 new vehicles and another owner and assume all 130's have the problem. Anyone with a puma 110 have this fault? If not could it be tailshaft angles which would be different in a 130? Problem is much worse when engine loaded e.g. towing or carrying a heavy load.

[philco]

what about bearings in diff head and/or rear diff hubs?not good quality or not lubricated? greased? wheel nuts not tight enough?
spose you checked them already

[Allan]

Have a check of the rear sway bar, see if it at times it is touching on the tank guard. I had a Perth dealer spend 3 days trying to find a similar vibration on my vehicle with no luck. I only found it when I noticed rust on the bar where it had been touching the tank. All this assuming that your 130 has a rear sway bar. Hope this helps.

Allan

[130HCPU]

I have a similar vibration in my 2004 Td5 130. Would be interested to know about the need for offsets in this model too. Also could non standard nuts/bolts at either end of the prop shaft be an issue

Hank

[philco]

wheel nuts i mean the big locking nuts holding the bearings in place, if it is loose your wheel will wobble and vibrate.

[dullbird]

wheel nuts i mean the big locking nuts holding the bearings in place, if it is loose your wheel will wobble and vibrate.

Do you mean the hub nut???

[lrbob]

Thanks to all for interest. Wheels and tyres have been swapped with another vehicle with no result. Rear prop shaft should be out of phase which suggests an alignment problem. Land Rover are of no help saying that the problem must be due to accessories fitted [towbar, bullbar, snorkel etc] even though the vibratii e expert to measure propshaft angles to see if the problem is there. It seems logical as removal of the rear propshaft with vehicle driven on the front only removes the vibratioin. It appears Land Rover has a problem with 130's in this regard and wno't or can't fix it.

[George130]

Didn't read all the posts but the output shaft on the transfer? Mine did that with the same symptoms.

[Bush65]

Could be t/case output shaft as Edd suggested.

Vibration problems also occur if the bolts in the flanges for the uni-joints are not tightened enough (because of the small flange used, it is difficult to get them tight with ordinary spanners).

The 130 has a longer tail shaft. This reduces the angles at the uni-joints, so it is not a problem with uni-joint angles.

The natural frequency of longer tail shafts changes with length (everything else the same), so this could be a reason. Also longer tail shafts will suffer more than short shafts, if they are running out of true or with slight runout of the t/case output shaft.

As length is increased it becomes necessary to use a larger diameter or heavier tube in the tailshaft construction to avoid problems associated with a longer tail shaft.

I haven't had much to do with 130's, but it is typical of Land Rover not to have robust drive trains. The uni-joint yokes on earlier rangies are marginal for their operating angles and they made these worse in later vehicles (as Land Rover tend to do).

My best guess is the 130 tail shafts are poorly designed and manufactured - they are marginal to bad in some other Land Rovers.

[lambrover]

the rear prop shaft is phased and the front is out off phase

[WD 130]

Hi ,

am interested in the out come of this matter as I have the same vehicle 08 130. It also has a vibration under load from around 80 to 100. landrover claim that 110 S dont have a vibration and 130 S do!!

I have replaced rims and tyres to no avail. Also have had transfer case replaced still the same, uni joints and propshaft have been checked, I personally feel it is related to tailshaft but have all but given up persuing the matter. I try to avoid driving under load through those speeds in 6th gear use 5 instead then put it in 6 after 100kmh, will watch this forum for more info

cheers

[lrbob]

Hi ,

am interested in the out come of this matter as I have the same vehicle 08 130. It also has a vibration under load from around 80 to 100. landrover claim that 110 S dont have a vibration and 130 S do!!

I have replaced rims and tyres to no avail. Also have had transfer case replaced still the same, uni joints and propshaft have been checked, I personally feel it is related to tailshaft but have all but given up persuing the matter. I try to avoid driving under load through those speeds in 6th gear use 5 instead then put it in 6 after 100kmh, will watch this forum for more info

cheers

I think I will need to consult a drivetrain expert.In my 130 the gearbox and transfer case have been swapped in and out with others. Wheels and tyres have been swapped. Tailshaft and rear diff replaced. Tested with hand brake drum removed.Axle shafts checked. Vibes disappear if rear tailshaft removed and driven on front only. Dealer used shims to change angle of rear axle and thought vibration reduced. Land Rover refuses to investigate further saying accessories must be the cause even though vibration was there b4 accessories fitted. Surpisingly I have spoken with some other 2008 owners who say they do not have the problem. Dealer found the same fault in 2 vehicles not even sold at that time and consider the fault to be a design/engineering problem characteristic of this model. My 1996 130 did not vibrate.

[Bush65]

I think I will need to consult a drivetrain expert.In my 130 the gearbox and transfer case have been swapped in and out with others. Wheels and tyres have been swapped. Tailshaft and rear diff replaced. Tested with hand brake drum removed.Axle shafts checked. Vibes disappear if rear tailshaft removed and driven on front only. Dealer used shims to change angle of rear axle and thought vibration reduced. Land Rover refuses to investigate further saying accessories must be the cause even though vibration was there b4 accessories fitted. Surpisingly I have spoken with some other 2008 owners who say they do not have the problem. Dealer found the same fault in 2 vehicles not even sold at that time and consider the fault to be a design/engineering problem characteristic of this model. My 1996 130 did not vibrate.
IMHO if you want to fix the vibration you will need to get an appropriate rear driveshaft made - not just a replication of what you have now, but one with decent universal joints and using the appropriate drive tube for the driveshaft length.

I don't know about the 130, but Land Rover changed to smaller universal joints in the 110 and Range Rover at about 1986 - they went from 1310 series down to 1300 series.

Although the earlier 1310 size is ok, the ISO yokes/flanges that Land Rover used, restrict the allowable uni-joint angle compared to what is used in other vehicles with this size uni-joint. The smaller yokes again used with the 1300 series uni- joint restrict the allowable angle still further. The small uni-joint yoke and allowable operating angle is arguably the main reason why Land Rovers experience vibration problems even when the suspension is only lifted a small amount, resulting in an increase of operating angle.

BTW, the 1310 and 1300 series use the same bearings but the cross piece is smaller on the 1300. Because the bearings are closer together, the same torque creates higher loads on the bearings and the allowable torque is less.

Although your suspension has not been lifted and the uni-joint angles with the longer driveshaft of a 130 will be less than for a 110, the problem is obviously with your driveshaft. The uni-joints are probably ok for the operating angles, but the Land Rover logic of reducing drive train strength from marginal to poor (not only in the driveshaft) leads me to suspect they may have skimped on the drive tube properties for the 130 length.

As the driveshaft rotates, uni-joints operating at an angle force the shaft to speed up and slow down 2 times during each revolution. This causes a torsional vibration, and the frequency of vibration increases with rotational speed (angular velocity).

There will be other vibrations due to out of balance (they are rarely balanced perfectly, torsional vibrations from the engine, differential and wheels. The out of balance vibration is worse if there in any run-out at the uni-joint flanges.

The numerous small and larger vibrations combine in a complex way, some cancelling and others synchronising to produce more severe vibration, with changes of speed.

Now the driveshaft will also have a natural frequency (actually they have more than one natural modes of vibration) that depends on it's length and how stiff it is - stiffness is how much it deflects and is greatly influenced by the properties of the drive tube.

As the frequency of vibration (from the uni-joints or out of balance, etc.) gets close to the natural frequency of the driveshaft, the driveshaft will begin to resonate.

Rotating shafts also have another characteristic known as critical speed or whirling. It is very difficult to get a vehicle driveshaft perfectly balanced. With out of balance, the centre of mass is slightly offset from the axis of rotation. As the rotational speed reaches the critical speed, the shaft changes from rotating about the normal axis of rotation and begins rotating about the centre of mass. When whirling happens the rest of the vehicle starts to vibrate about the driveshaft - you can see something like this with clothes washing machines during spin-dry cycles as the machine shakes violently. The critical speed is a function of shaft length. It is important for the driveshaft to not operate near its critical speed.

1310 series uni-joints should be ok for your driveshaft, but unfortunately you are restricted to the narrow angle yokes of pre 1986 rovers, unless you use flange adaptors.

The other solution is to use a 1310 constant velocity, double cardan joint at the transfer case end. The constant velocity of the driveshaft will reduce vibration, as long as the diff pinion angle is corrected so the angle of the uni-joint at the diff is not great - must be less than 3*, preferably better than 2*. You will need a flange adapter for the 1310 CV.

[philco]

I am interested to know if the driveshaft on my 95 130Tdi is the same joints and shaft as on the new puma 130 ? length diametre weight etc? would anyone know? I could take mine off and measure it etc to compare

[justinc]

I am interested to know if the driveshaft on my 95 130Tdi is the same joints and shaft as on the new puma 130 ? length diametre weight etc? would anyone know? I could take mine off and measure it etc to compare

Different length due to yours having a real rear differential Philco:) They fitted a P38a Bang-go rear diff after 2002....

Same uni joints etc, BUT the front shafts in all 2001/2 onwards 110 and 130 seem to have upgraded wider yokes and bigger uni joint cross...:confused: Why not do the rear aswell??:confused::confused:

JC

[justinc]

I'm going to throw another spanner in the works here,

Try measuring the distance between the upper Aframe points on the crossmember above the rear diff and the transmission park brake drum face, and compare this measurement to a vehicle that ISN'T vibrating.

I hypothesise that some of the chassis jigging/ construction is a bit approimate. If this distance is significantly different, the nose angle of the rear differential will be out of normal parameters.

Also, check the wheelbase left and right, and compare the distnce between the front radius rod and rear trailing arm bracketry between yours and a vibration free example. This will also upset the nose angle if out by enough.

I have come across quite a few 110's that developed front shaft vibes after a minor suspension lift in Td5 models, whereas Tdi ones never seem as touchy. Supposedly the same chassis dimensions etc but I think that LR have changed a few dimensions to achieve a caster change, this then effectively reduces the amount by which you can lif the suspension without upsetting shaft angles etc. I haven't been able to proove this though, it is just an observation at present based on what I have seen.

John has some pretty valid points above about shaft whipping, shaft diameter has remained unchanged with the 130 since day 1, and now they put out about 50% more torque thn the humble 300Tdi so I wouldn;t be suprised if this is a contributing factor aswell.

JC

[scampo]

:angel::angel:never owned a quiet 130 or one that aint not leaked some kinda fluid .leakeaked seapped water and took in dust ? isnt that why we own landys:cool::cool:

[Bush65]

Different length due to yours having a real rear differential Philco:) They fitted a P38a Bang-go rear diff after 2002....

Same uni joints etc, BUT the front shafts in all 2001/2 onwards 110 and 130 seem to have upgraded wider yokes and bigger uni joint cross...:confused: Why not do the rear aswell??:confused::confused:

JC
I'm interested in a comparison of driveshaft length and drive tube diameter.

Based on a 100" wheelbase disco/rangie, I would expect the 130 (127" wheelbase) to have a driveshaft about 58" long.

From information on Tom Wood's web site (http://www.4xshaft.com/index.html), this length should have a tube about 3" diameter - see pic below, pasted from his information. BTW the disco/rangie tube dia is 2", which is suitable for its length - my concern is that the 130 may still have 2" tubes.

(Edit:
This diameter is based on a tailshaft speed of 3000 rpm, so could be smaller if rpm is lower.
end edit)

I am planning to have Tom Woods make new driveshafts for my bushie - his prices, given the good exchange rate and shipping to Australia, work out well for a quality product.

[philco]

I remember a few years ago someone i knew, every couple of years he bought a new car, first thing he did was take it to the panel shop with the chassis straightner and get them to check the chassis and straighten it if it needed, then they would go thru the whole vehicle and re-align the doors panels etc that was in the 80's when build quality was not quite up to todays standard, so my thought would be maybe to try the same thing and see how far out the LR build jigs are when the chassis is made.
the computers on them jigs are really good now and will align up to 1mm, worth a try?

[Bush65]

The main influence of driveshaft vibration is from the operating angle of the uni-joints (unavoidable). But the way other vibrations combine with those and build up when the shaft is rotating near its natural (resonance) frequency, complicates the affects and is why not all experiences are the same.

Even things like engine and gearbox mounts and their alignment can give different results for driveshaft vibration in otherwise identical vehicles.

[lrbob]

Thanks John, I think you are right in that a complete new prop shaft is required. My vibration is very severe when loaded or towing. Cheers

[Sitec]

Having just bought a 130 Td5 and having experienced the same noise between 90 and 100kmh it's got me thinking... I had a 101 that used to do the same thing. I cured this by making up a CV jointed prop but the angles were mad on 101's. Anyway, back to my thought... A prop (if both flanges are parallel) should be 'in phase' (joints alligned..). Defender 90's are out of phase as the front diff is tipped up.. Having just looked under mine, the diff flange (Salisbury) is at 90 deg to the floor, but the transfer box is tipped back slightly. Is it worth trying the prop 1 or 2 splines out of phase.....?

[lrbob]

Thanks for interest. My 2008 130 came from LR with rear prop shaft out of phase which suggests that they knew of this vibration problem but sold them anyway.

[lrbob]

Actually my 2008 130 came from LR with rear propshaft out of phase. Tried it in phase and vibes still there.

[slt]

Potential resolution here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/98985-defender-driveline-noise-vibrations.html)

[TimNZ]

Have you had the clutch changed yet lrbob? My 110 had a bad vibration in 6th under load from 90 - 110 km/h. This dissappeared when the clutch was changed due to the anti-rattle springs coming loose.

Tim

[ellard]

Hi there

A friend of mine in Whyalla had a simular problem..........took us some time to find it.

We tried wheel balancing checked diffs and tail shafts but found the problem to be the tyres.

They dont like the SA Heat in the summer (very agressive tread pattern, but soft).

New tyres and it drived like a dream now...

Wayne

[lrbob]

Thanks Tim, Clutch was inspected when a new gearbox was swapped in and out in attempt to find problem.

[lrbob]

Thanks Ellard. Dealer swapped all wheels/tyres with some of known quality without result. Cheers