D2 watts link conversion to D1 A frame

[disco_thrasher]

As we all know the great struggle to create flex in our rear of our D2 and it all comes down to that cursed thing the WATTS LINK

After eying out the D1 rear flex and there rear setup which is very similar to the rangie setup,,,, after many a disscussions and beers i am looking at transplanting the A frame from the D1 and putting it in the D2 and completly getting rid of that thing landrover call a WATTS LINK hopefully keeping the D2 diff to eliminate having to carry two different types of rims on tyres

This is still in the early stages but for all those out there that have battled many a night and day and $$$$$$$ to create more flex out of our ass ends can sure understand my frustration:mad:

Does anyone know of anybody who has done this ? or any of you out there that has done this ? or thought of doing it?
All info will be very much appreciated

cheers kelvin

[clubagreenie]

One of the things that gets me, and I'm not bagging anyone in particular here. One thing I see is rather than working with what there is massive attempts made to re-engineer systems back to "known" designs because they work.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/01/993.jpg

The watts linkage as depicted above can be used quite effectively in this situation, it just needs to be understood and worked with. If you looked there are also limitations with the a frame (not to mention having to change the ball joint PITA). The watts should provide better centralization. It will also give a central rotational pivot point (the mount) which for our purposes shouldn't have a travel limit.

You can also reverse the mounting system, that is mount point P to the chassis and L1 & L2 to the axle. This will change the principal slightly and reduce unsprung mass but that's not what we're really looking at. The linkage can also be used in pairs longitudinally as in trailing arms.

I have another forum I run personally (http://www.v-eight.com) for a totally unrelated topic and some of the re-engineering that people want to do is amazing. If you're looking at redesigning the back end you might as well go all the way 4 bar twin shock coil overs.

[disco_thrasher]

great explaination but it does not do what you illustration says it can,in my experience
firstly your blue line(L2) in comparison to the green(L1&L3) line looks out of ratio with the watts linkage which is your blue line ,could you supply your measurement for L1 and L2 and L3,as this is the reason i posted this up to get good feedback ,to see if this would be a goer i will be taken a step back and accessing Slunnies post in the GCLRO section

a 4 bar twin shock coilover would be ideal but would not be ideal to my bank account so i try work with what we can ,bearing in mind my D2 is not a drive to the shops car like most D2
cheers kelvin

[Redback]

Have you thought about the Rovertym HP Watts link?
http://www.rovertym.com/.%5Courprod%5Cwatts%5Cd2watts.jpg
http://www.rovertym.com/.%5Courprod%5Cwatts%5Cnewwatts.jpg

Baz.

[Tombie]

As we all know the great struggle to create flex in our rear of our D2 and it all comes down to that cursed thing the WATTS LINK

Sorry, but I have to disagree here...

The Watts link can be clearanced to avoid contact, but the Flex is limited by the bushings at the end of the lower arms.

Custom arms with spherical bearings/rose joints may work far better, check legality though... They can break with interesting results!

[dobbo]

I'll have to flex up the D2 and County together and compare, it sounds like a lot of work that could result in a backwards step.

Do Superpro make bushes for the watts linkage?

[Slunnie]

Sorry, but I have to disagree here...

The Watts link can be clearanced to avoid contact, but the Flex is limited by the bushings at the end of the lower arms.

Custom arms with spherical bearings/rose joints may work far better, check legality though... They can break with interesting results!

Rose joints in the radius arms will top any articulation at all. The bushes at the axle end need to be able to flex to allow articulation


I'll have to flex up the D2 and County together and compare, it sounds like a lot of work that could result in a backwards step.

Do Superpro make bushes for the watts linkage?
The watts linkage has spherical joints in it which are a better joint for that particular part. Superpro type bushes would be the go for those between the axle and the radius arms.

[fatman]

I agree that the limiting factor are the bushes(apart from the overall design of the arms).
The same thing happens with the front of D1 's (and patrols and g'wagens), maybe some slotted bushes for the rear will improve things?

[Baffle]

Strange how things happen. Ran into Disco thrasher today, small world, I was 24 hrs behind him looking at how to fit coil over shocks and a A-frame at Wizards.Now im reading about it on the site :D:D
Im going this way at the moment for the rear trailing + the coil over shock's 3º Castor Corrected Radius Arm from Qt Services Limited (http://www.qtservices.co.uk/product.asp?id=3015#) in the site under the index.

Im going to keep the Watts as Ive already twisted and welded the upper driverside arm by a few degrees and think by building the lower arm it should work fine,already ground out 15mm of the mount, maybe test shorter lengths, At the end of the day, how far do you go until its full roll cage stuff:p,I think that the A frame is a good idea but, Welding extea mounts, changing trailing arm mounts to singles, there is alot of work and money involved.
As Slunnie and a few have said rose joints are the way to go adding alot of extra flex while keeping the original mounts.
Test this first, if it does not work, the A frame is in.

Yours

[discowhite]

Rose joints in the radius arms will top any articulation at all. The bushes at the axle end need to be able to flex to allow articulation
i read mikes reply as ''rose joints in the watts link setup''

The watts linkage has spherical joints in it which are a better joint for that particular part. Superpro type bushes would be the go for those between the axle and the radius arms.


cheers phil

[Baffle]

:p oops sorry, yea that :D:D Reading to quick, well for me anyway.....

What do you think of the trailing arms on the site I posted up ?

[Slunnie]

:p oops sorry, yea that :D:D Reading to quick, well for me anyway.....

What do you think of the trailing arms on the site I posted up ?
The flex will be unchanged. All they do is change the steering castor and pinion angle - ie for lifted suspension.

[Baffle]

Ok, opps again, maybe ive posted the wrong site, the trailing arms I was looking at looked great and showed alot of improvement, Ill look through my bookmarks and find what I was looking at.

Had an idea about keeping the Watts link and having 2 single lower arms ( mounted to the lower front mount of the diff ) and instead of the A frame, have 1 link at the top of the diff to the center of the chassis .??

[disco_thrasher]

Strange how things happen. Ran into Disco thrasher today, small world, I was 24 hrs behind him looking at how to fit coil over shocks and a A-frame at Wizards.Now im reading about it on the site :D:D
Im going this way at the moment for the rear trailing + the coil over shock's 3º Castor Corrected Radius Arm from Qt Services Limited (http://www.qtservices.co.uk/product.asp?id=3015#) in the site under the index.

Im going to keep the Watts as Ive already twisted and welded the upper driverside arm by a few degrees and think by building the lower arm it should work fine,already ground out 15mm of the mount, maybe test shorter lengths, At the end of the day, how far do you go until its full roll cage stuff:p,I think that the A frame is a good idea but, Welding extea mounts, changing trailing arm mounts to singles, there is alot of work and money involved.
As Slunnie and a few have said rose joints are the way to go adding alot of extra flex while keeping the original mounts.
Test this first, if it does not work, the A frame is in.

Yours

yeah good to meet you today baffle pity it was just after i exploded my rear diff , i had depression and fury running through the blood :mad:

myself and Greg (grover69) from Outcast offroad have being discussing the conversion for awhile now and really think its the way to go ,we should hook up and throw some ideas around see if its a goer ,
ah yeah awesome rig you got there ,its good to see D2 getting the **** done to them and not staying as shopping trolleys

there are some awesome ideas here rose joints a great concept but i am tired of testing things ,i reckon if comp trucks run A frame or 5 link ,we know its gonna work why not go straight there spend the money on something that we all now works very well
cheers kelvin

[Baffle]

Im getting the 5 link built( for the front}, but Im thinking about trailing arms with, ( I think there Heim joints, not rose) for extra articulation.
How far can you get a watts link to work?

[disco_thrasher]

.
How far can you get a watts link to work?
that is the question??????????????????????????? if they that good why have they not been incorperated in other extreme offroad applications

[HBWC]

5link na mate you realy want a tragalated 4 link for the ultimate flex and no panhard

[Baffle]

Slunnie, I just read your post in gold coast general. Cricky Im running around in circles here. I might just sit back and shut up for a while :(:confused:.
Either way I want more flex and I want it now:D:D

[disco_thrasher]

you reckon this bloke is running watts link

[Slunnie]

Im getting the 5 link built, but Im thinking about trailing arms with, ( I think there Heim joints, not rose) for extra articulation.
How far can you get a watts link to work?
Heim joints is just what a Rose joint is called in the US.

Standard Watts will go to about 650mm open shocks like what Baz posted somewhere look like they'd go a lot further. 14" would be my guess.

[Slunnie]

that is the question??????????????????????????? if they that good why have they not been incorperated in other extreme offroad applications
They are harder to setup than other designs that do the same thing. If you want the axle to travel directly up and down it is easier to fabricate and A frame or triangulated uppers which control the lateral location of the axle as well as the rotation of the axle. A watts linkage is more complex and fiddly for a fabricator in comparison and only provides lateral location.

5link na mate you realy want a tragalated 4 link for the ultimate flex and no panhard
You will also compromise lateral stability for road use. No road going vehicle that I'm aware of runs that setup. If you do, then Rose joints in the top triangulation would be my recommendation.


you reckon this bloke is running watts link
I don't know what he is running but a Watts linkage will do that.

[Slunnie]

you reckon this bloke is running watts link
Thats an interesting pic there.

If you check the pic of the white D2 and compare the wheel position in comparison to my D2 which has a standard watts linkage and radius arms. If more is needed then the standard watts linkage can be swapped for a longer travel one. I'm guessing that the white one has an A-frame setup instead of the watts linkage.

To make things a little more interesting, I'm guessing that the white D2 has a lower wheel position at the rear because its running a fair amount of ride height and so in effect everything sits lower in comparison to the body. I'm guessing this because if you then compare the compressed position of my front wheel in comparison to the white D2's front wheel, you will see that it hasn't compressed up into the guard anywhere near as far as what my one has.

Here are the pics.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/discovery-2/21666d1263292987-d2-watts-link-conversion-d1-frame-0927091548.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/01/972.jpg

[disco_thrasher]

That is true the wwhite one is now running A frame setup
there is not too much differnet between the 2 but yours is a exception LOL

[cal415]

it would be interesting to see if you can get much more out of them with the rovertym arms, doesnt anyone actualy have a set on there d2?