Interesting towing setup

[CJT]

On my way to Rocky today I saw an interesting towing setup, as follows;

Fifth Wheeler Caravan connected to dolly, connected to normal tow ball of 4wd ute.

I do not know any of the legalities of such a setup, however I can see the advantages of not needing a dedicated vehicle for a fifth wheel trailer. Plus low ball weight on your rig due to dolly taking all the load.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Would it make the entire rig a multi-combination vehicle?

The entire setup was triple axle fifth wheeler, single axle dolly (could have been double, not sure) and then the two axles of the ute, so min. six axle total.

[dobbo]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/01/733.jpg


common setup overseas

[V8Ian]

I recall seeing adverts for a similiar setup for normal caravans, 40 or so years ago. I doubt they will catch on, most people have enough trouble reversing a normal set-up with a single articulation point. Many caravaners refuse to stop at van parks that lack drive through faculties.

[vnx205]

Dad had one on our caravan in the late 1950s. It had smaller wheels.

It worked well except when reversing.

[fraser130]

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Would it make the entire rig a multi-combination vehicle?

The entire setup was triple axle fifth wheeler, single axle dolly (could have been double, not sure) and then the two axles of the ute, so min. six axle total.

I'm guessing the whole 5th wheeler would then be considered a dog trailer?

Looking at your pic Dobbo, I'll bet he has a huge motorbike on the back of that rig too!

http://www.mcttrailers.net/Product%20Logos%20and%20Pics/Blue%20Ox/sports%20carrier.jpg


Fraser

[Bigbjorn]

A dolly was a common piece of equipment in the 1950's. Jennison Caravans used to push their use on their high end "Pathfinder" range. Those of us old enough will remember the common sight of a tow vehicle & caravan badly sagged downwards at the coupling, progressing down the highway. The steering on these rigs must have been badly compromised but no-one cared about minor details like that when there were still thousands of pre-war cars on the road with steering so badly worn that there was free play up to 1/4 and 1/3 of a turn of the steering wheel.

[BMKal]

If that set-up isn't considered a multi-combination, then it definitely should be.

Would hate to see the average caravanner let loose on the road with that without at least some sort of basic training / towing experience.

Having come across a few float drivers who can't reverse them with the dolly under, and seeing the reversing skills of many pulling conventional caravans, watching some of them trying to reverse this combination would be entertaining to say the least.

[PAT303]

If that set-up isn't considered a multi-combination, then it definitely should be.

Would hate to see the average caravanner let loose on the road with that without at least some sort of basic training / towing experience.

Having come across a few float drivers who can't reverse them with the dolly under, and seeing the reversing skills of many pulling conventional caravans, watching some of them trying to reverse this combination would be entertaining to say the least.

Brian,I don't see how it could be any more unsafe than a lot of the set-ups we have go through town during tourist season. Pat

[Pedro_The_Swift]

How can that be legal/safe?

as soon as any brake forces are applied to the trailer it will try and pull the dolly over/lift the rear end of the car,, AND the reverse will apply too!

[Slunnie]

How can that be legal/safe?

as soon as any brake forces are applied to the trailer it will try and pull the dolly over/lift the rear end of the car,, AND the reverse will apply too!
There's probably too much weight on the dolly to do that.




I'm sure I've seen footage of the Leyland bros early expeditions - I think it was the coast to coast expedition where they run some series landys, with one of them towing a dog trailer.

[CJT]

From what I have heard today it would be classed as an articulated vehicle and you require the relevant licence.

[mike_ie]

From what I have heard today it would be classed as an articulated vehicle and you require the relevant licence.

I was just going to ask that very question - wouldn't this be considered as an articulated trailer??

[BMKal]

Brian,I don't see how it could be any more unsafe than a lot of the set-ups we have go through town during tourist season. Pat

Agreed - I don't think that there's anything particularly unsafe about it, provided the person driving the vehicle knows what he/she is doing.

But the fact that it's double articulated will significantly reduce the number of people who could competently operate, and particularly reverse it.

All you have to do is look at the number of people who can't even reverse a single articulation combination - reversing this is a bit more complex.

[V8Ian]

Being under 4.5 tonne should negate any requirement for a licence other than that needed to drive a car.

[longreach]

Being under 4.5 tonne should negate any requirement for a licence other than that needed to drive a car.
:cool:you are right,you dont need a extra licence to tow a caravan/combination as long as the tow vehicle is under 4.5 tonne.........BUT I think its wrong,any one with a car licence can hook up to a 30 ft caravan and drive around our highways with no extra training,I see them every day,up and down the roads around queensland..........there should be extra training for caravanners before they are let loose on our roads,after all they are a articulated vehicle.
As for the dolly under the caravan in rocky,thats a good idear,if the vehicle was bigger you would need a M/C licence to drive it........

[Slunnie]

Being under 4.5 tonne should negate any requirement for a licence other than that needed to drive a car.
I thought that might be the case too. As silly as it sounds, its still classed as a small trailer.

[CJT]

The 4.5 tonne limit does sound correct, however I believe that due to the dolly being present and there being more than one point to pivot on an Articulated vehicle licence is required.

Could be wrong though, would be interesting to see what the transport departments say.

[CJT]

Also, I believe the setup in Dobbo's photo is actually a tag axle and connects to the back of the ute in three places. It does not pivot seperate to the lead vehicle, however therefore the tyres slide when the vehicle is turning.

[disco_mitch]

is it possible that he has somehow stopped turning movement on the towball and just use the dolly as the turn point therefore making just one turn point

[disco2hse]

:cool:you are right,you dont need a extra licence to tow a caravan/combination as long as the tow vehicle is under 4.5 tonne.........

Really? Is that how you guys do it there?

Over here an HT is required if the combined weight is in excess of 3.5 tonne. That means if you are driving a Series II Disco and a heavy trailer, say a boat, then you need an HT. Then there are classes of HT for different kinds of heavy vehicle.

In the case shown in the first photo it looks as though at least a class 3 HT would be required, which is a semi-rigid vehicle.

Alan

[disco2hse]

Also, I believe the setup in Dobbo's photo is actually a tag axle and connects to the back of the ute in three places. It does not pivot seperate to the lead vehicle, however therefore the tyres slide when the vehicle is turning.

Wouldn't it be just something like this once it is all hitched up?

3 Axle Curtainside Trailer for sale at Tradeatruck.co.nz :: The FREE place to buy and sell trucks and trailers (http://www.tradeatruck.co.nz/Browse/trailers/curtainsider/100950.aspx)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/01/492.jpg

[AKW]

There is a white D2 getting around with a big van with tandem
axles under the rear and a single axle dolly at the front.
I have seen it between Parkes and Goondiwindi but only parked
have not seen it moving yet but i think it would tow well.

Andrew

[clubagreenie]

You can now get dolly trailers for cars as well, picking up only the front wheels. Like a tow truck would (pre flat beds anyway. As for grandad pulling that thing. He'd have to get into it first with his broken hip and cane AFTER convincing gran to do it.

By the time they packed up and got in they'd get about two hours of travel in before needing the rest of the day to stop and setup again.

[alien]

Surely Joe Average wouldn't get this tangled up backing with a dolly:twisted:

YouTube- Unloading sand

Mind you at least they could check the brake lights (@2.45):D

[scrambler]

I saw one of these dolly setups in Bundaberg the other day. Was a standard caravan but with a modified drawbar with a turntable similar to a 5th wheeler, small-wheeled dolly towed by a ute. I wondered if it might be used to get around towball download limits.

[Scouse]

Surely Joe Average wouldn't get this tangled up backing with a dolly:twisted:

YouTube- Unloading sand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S24TDTtyzs4)

Mind you at least they could check the brake lights (@2.45):DHow good was that. I thought he'd screwed it up but he knew exactly what he was doing :).

[disco2hse]

I saw one of these dolly setups in Bundaberg the other day. Was a standard caravan but with a modified drawbar with a turntable similar to a 5th wheeler, small-wheeled dolly towed by a ute. I wondered if it might be used to get around towball download limits.

Quite possibly. Hadn't thought of that.

[CJT]

Wouldn't it be just something like this once it is all hitched up?

3 Axle Curtainside Trailer for sale at Tradeatruck.co.nz :: The FREE place to buy and sell trucks and trailers (http://www.tradeatruck.co.nz/Browse/trailers/curtainsider/100950.aspx)

http://www.tradeatruck.co.nz/Browse/trailers/curtainsider/Photo.jpg?ListingId=100950&PhotoId=fbe9cb8b-c9e0-4fac-81e7-d2517a72d7f7&PhotoSize=3

Yep, thats basically the setup I saw, but with a fifth wheeler or similar caravan behind the ute.

[Snow goose]

There's probably too much weight on the dolly to do that.




I'm sure I've seen footage of the Leyland bros early expeditions - I think it was the coast to coast expedition where they run some series landys, with one of them towing a dog trailer.

I think these are a great idea. I am sorting myself out to live in my van so it is a biggish one at 22ft. I have a tdi which has a pretty pathetic ball weight of only 150kg but can pull up to 3.5 tonne. With a dog type trailer it can pull 4tn so the dolly setup would work for me. By reducing the load on the ball the shorter wheelbased vehicle will be more stable. Am trying to find out if legal.

[richard4u2]

i think a 22' with 2 axles the ball weight would come in under 150 kg

[Tank]

Common amongst tippers, but I doubt it would be legal/safe unless the dolly was connected by a Ring Feder setup, Regards Frank.

[gavinwibrow]

What about this?

[Snow goose]

Thanks Richard, according to my calculation it is well above but you're still a novice. Do you have a formulary for calculating the ball weight. Cheers. Oops I meant I'm still a novice

[blackbuttdisco]

I do not have to calculate, I hang a set of scales from my engine crane. Scales go up to 150kg.

[bigcarle]

From what I have heard today it would be classed as an articulated vehicle and you require the relevant licence.

funnily enough no on the licence
why? many years ago there was a question on a company called Luya Julius that operated a lot of car carriers around Brisbane (BIG fleet of Leylands) and the question was should these trucks be classed as articulated and when you read the definition of articulated no they werent, in part it said 'that the turntable has to be over or in front of the drive axle to be classed as an articulated vehicle' the turn tables in question were in fact UNDER the drive axle so they were classed as 'C' class (truck) licence and not 'E' (semi).

i do agree that backing one of these would be like backing a dog trailer and from a lot of personal experience a pain but one of the first things you learn in towing a dog trailer is look first at where you are going to dee if you can get out without reversing and if not how much reversing can you get away with

one problem with this in Queensland is that the dolly itself has to be registered and have brakes and most probably a breakaway device. unless you could make it fixed to the main trailer, maybe with a ballrace turntable

i actually was thinking that for the bigger caravens it would be better on the towball to have a dog trialer type arangment like the leyland brothers.i talked to a friend that does RWC on truck trailers and he said yes you could build it but it would be expensive.

Surely Joe Average wouldn't get this tangled up backing with a dolly:twisted:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/04/1104.jpg YouTube- Unloading sand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S24TDTtyzs4)
Mind you at least they could check the brake lights (@2.45):D

the kiwis are bloody good at this but i have been told that dog trailers are thicker than fleas on a dog there :wasntme:( sorry couldnt help that)

[Sue]

Really? Is that how you guys do it there?

Over here an HT is required if the combined weight is in excess of 3.5 tonne. That means if you are driving a Series II Disco and a heavy trailer, say a boat, then you need an HT. Then there are classes of HT for different kinds of heavy vehicle.

In the case shown in the first photo it looks as though at least a class 3 HT would be required, which is a semi-rigid vehicle.

Alan

Yep if it's under 4.5t - the trailer/caravan etc not combined - then you can tow it with your normal car licence. It's a little scary really because there are a lot of grey nomads out there that have never driven anything larger than the Corolla they have been driving to work for years, who suddenly cash in their superannuation and invest in a 3t caravan and a Land Cruiser and hit the roads.. without any training or in a lot of cases even guidance on safe driving and towing practices..

Of course it's not always this bad; there are towing courses that can be done and many people have had towing experience before taking the grey nomad route.. :)

[Snow goose]

funnily enough no on the licence
why? many years ago there was a question on a company called Luya Julius that operated a lot of car carriers around Brisbane (BIG fleet of Leylands) and the question was should these trucks be classed as articulated and when you read the definition of articulated no they werent, in part it said 'that the turntable has to be over or in front of the drive axle to be classed as an articulated vehicle' the turn tables in question were in fact UNDER the drive axle so they were classed as 'C' class (truck) licence and not 'E' (semi).

i do agree that backing one of these would be like backing a dog trailer and from a lot of personal experience a pain but one of the first things you learn in towing a dog trailer is look first at where you are going to dee if you can get out without reversing and if not how much reversing can you get away with

one problem with this in Queensland is that the dolly itself has to be registered and have brakes and most probably a breakaway device. unless you could make it fixed to the main trailer, maybe with a ballrace turntable

i actually was thinking that for the bigger caravens it would be better on the towball to have a dog trialer type arangment like the leyland brothers.i talked to a friend that does RWC on truck trailers and he said yes you could build it but it would be expensive.


the kiwis are bloody good at this but i have been told that dog trailers are thicker than fleas on a dog there :wasntme:( sorry couldnt help that)

Well that is probably true but b.doubles are pretty common there too as you don't need a special license for them just a heavy truck and trailer. For a little nation NZ is pretty advanced on the trucking scene:angel:

[bigcarle]

Well that is probably true but b.doubles are pretty common there too as you don't need a special license for them just a heavy truck and trailer. For a little nation NZ is pretty advanced on the trucking scene:angel:
when i went for my 'B' double license apart from the then 'E' class all you had to have a letter from your employer stating the rego number of the 'B' double you would be required to drive.
nowadays i think you have to take a driving course AFAIK
it makes me wonder as when i first got my "semi" license i was allowed to drive road-trains on it, and then they bought out the laminated one i then couldn't, they then moved to the new classifications and hey presto i can again. you have to wonder at government working and the thought ( or lack thereof) behind it all