Is Automatic Transmission Stuffed?

[Ausfree]

My 2001 Freelander V6 with the five speed Jatco transmission is at the mechanics after the transmission cooler cracked and mixed the auto fluid with the coolant. The mechanic seems to be of the opinion that once coolant gets into the auto box it wrecks the seals and it is only a matter of time before the box will need a rebuild. The vehicle was not driven far after a problem was noticed and by the time I got it to the mechanic I noticed it was slipping. Can anybody give me an opinion?:confused:

[101RRS]

What your mechanic said may be true - but then it may not. So if the gearbox is still in the car leave it and see what happens - all you loose is a bit of inconvenience if it does fail - pay for a rebuild now that maybe is not needed and you loose big dollars.

If the box is out of the car I would be looking at getting the seals done now.

Just my opinion.

Garry

[Ausfree]

Thanks for that Garry, much appreciated, the vehicle has been off the road for two weeks and the mechanic tells me the thermostat is stuffed, needs a new one, I am getting quite frustrated, thinking of unloading the vehicle. Any idea what a transmission rebuild costs?:confused: Oh, the transmission is not out of the vehicle but all the manifold has been pulled off to get to the thermostat!!

[BigJon]

It is a few years since I priced a Jatco 5 speed auto for a Freelander, but my memory is that it was painfully expensive (genuine LR rebuilt trans). Scouse should be able to tell you how much these days.

[Scouse]

I don't even want to know :(.

I remember when the V6 auto first came out that a new engine & gearbox cost more than the whole car (and a few were done).

Your best bet would be to contact A&B Transmissions in Melbourne. They rebuild them for LR.

Home (http://www.abautomatics.com.au/)

[Ausfree]

Much appreciated Scouse I will EMail them for an idea

[Chops]

What your mechanic said may be true - but then it may not. So if the gearbox is still in the car leave it and see what happens - all you loose is a bit of inconvenience if it does fail - pay for a rebuild now that maybe is not needed and you loose big dollars.

If the box is out of the car I would be looking at getting the seals done now.

Just my opinion.

Garry



X 2,,
Just my opinion also, but with the warranty work I've done on BTR trans's, both 4 & 6 speeds, I've not seen any real problem with seals and coolant,, however, this would depend on condition of trans at the time of failure. If it was in "good nick" when it happened, I would think it should be ok, if not,,, ahhh, maybe not. It may take a couple of flushes to clean it out properly, but as said, it's cheaper to do that than pull it out and rebuild it on the off chance it may have stuffed something. Leaving it for some time to find out will give you some time to gather funds etc so your ready for it later "if" it does flag it.
Hope it helps,, but remember, it's only my opinion, your descision.

Cheers

[Blknight.aus]

it doesnt so much stuff the seal of the box but it does contaminate the lockup clutch of the torque converter, this then progressively fails and takes out the box by means of burning the oil when it slips and putting crap into the box and cooler.

it will take a minimum of 3 flushes to get all the coolant gone this can be made easier by blending about 30% by volume of metho into the first flush.

[Ausfree]

Thanks Chops and Blknight for your advice, as funds are limited I have been seriously worried, I will have a talk to the mechanic tomorrow, your advice is very much appreciated. Cheers:)

[Blknight.aus]

if you get on top of it in a hurry and get the contaminated oil out quick smart you might get another year or 2 out of the box...

I suggest that you replace the TC and skip the flushing. you should also spring for new pump seals as part of replacing the TC.

as a bonus if you replace the TC you eliminate the need for bulk flushing as you are removing the only part of the auto that cant be drained and cleaned.

depending on how pedantic your mechanic is in his choice of oils, how much oil the auto in the freelander holds and how much you can get a TC to suit for you may come out in front in terms of parts and consumables to replace the TC then refill the auto.

of course the labour charge will blow that out but consider that the peace of mind factor..

as an additional bonus when you buy the TC if you buy from some places that specialise in TC's you may well be able to have the TC customised to suit your driving technique and get a heavy duty lockup fitted.

[woko]

Have a talk with Bob Hunt Autos in maitland. he just rebuilt the jatco in my brothers freelander. they can be a nightmare to find parts for. I know that A&B Autos in Vic were $3300 for a exchange box but that was a trade price. Bob Hunt rebuilt mine for $1400 With T/C rebuilt, but I had to find a clutch drum that was $600. I did find out they use the same gear box internals as a Mazda MPV.so I sourced the parts from Mazda. thermostats are common on V6 its about every 50000km job

[Ausfree]

Thanks again everybody, Woko you're a beauty, with that advice about the Maitland contact, I will hardcopy all this info to hand to my mechanic tomorrow. cheers all.:D:D I am starting to feel (a bit) happier.:)

[Ausfree]

if you get on top of it in a hurry and get the contaminated oil out quick smart you might get another year or 2 out of the box...

I suggest that you replace the TC and skip the flushing. you should also spring for new pump seals as part of replacing the TC.

as a bonus if you replace the TC you eliminate the need for bulk flushing as you are removing the only part of the auto that cant be drained and cleaned.

depending on how pedantic your mechanic is in his choice of oils, how much oil the auto in the freelander holds and how much you can get a TC to suit for you may come out in front in terms of parts and consumables to replace the TC then refill the auto.

of course the labour charge will blow that out but consider that the peace of mind factor..

as an additional bonus when you buy the TC if you buy from some places that specialise in TC's you may well be able to have the TC customised to suit your driving technique and get a heavy duty lockup fitted.
When you state replace the TC, I assume you mean the Transmission Cooler (I am not a mechanic), as I stated in my original post the Cooler has failed and will be replaced anyway.If you replaced the Transmission Cooler wouldn't you flush anyway to clear the rest of the transmission of coolant?:confused:

[Blknight.aus]

the TC is the Torque converter. I had a brief look around the net and one similar in size (I dont know the freelander specs off of the top of my head) to what should be in the freelander v6 can be had for about $300.

Changing the Torque converter (which is essentially the clutch and heart of an auto) means pulling the box. Its also the bit that holds all the oil you cant get out when you drop the pan to change the filter and the oil.

if you search the forum for the grey box of evil thread you can be demisitfied as to whats what in the box and roughly how they work.

in a nut shell Inside the TC is a clutch the same as whats in the manuals but its a wet clutch its designed to function while in oil. The material is generally highly hygroscopic (it absorbs water really well) and behaves differently when wet with water instead of oil. Generaly it gets "bubbles" in its surface that get ground off when the torque converter trys to lock up. These bits then wind up floating around inside the box. Thats bad and is usually what takes out the box some time after its been drowned and then flushed out.

[Chops]

Persononally,,, I'd forget the change over of the TC, just flush it really well a couple of times, and leave it at that. As soon as you start pulling it apart, you will start the proccess of "natural breakdown" of other components,,things like when they place the TC back into the pump, they may damage the new seal anyway,, which you won't notice untill it's too late, by then water and grime will be in there and will have stuffed the internals anyway,, not to mention the labour costs in the first place. The hardest thing is to make sure they flush it properly in the fisrt place,, some guys just do it better than others :eek:

[Ausfree]

thanks fella's for your advice, some contradictory, I have printed it all off and will discuss it with the mechanic tomorrow, I hope we arrive at a correct descision, again thankyou very much everybody!!:):)

[woko]

make sure your mechanic uses the correct oil. these gear boxes are sensitive to oil type. the correct oil that LR uses is texaco N402 but there are others Valovine maxlife is equivalent. the level plug is on the bottom of the box and a Allen key from memory 5mm. make sure he uses this one there is a star headed bolt that you may think is a level plug but is a band anchor, if its removed the box will have to be striped to refit

[Ausfree]

Thanks again Woko, on talking to the mechanic yesterday, he was aware of this and I will be talking to him again this morning!!!:)

[Blknight.aus]

Persononally,,, I'd forget the change over of the TC, just flush it really well a couple of times, and leave it at that. As soon as you start pulling it apart, you will start the proccess of "natural breakdown" of other components,,things like when they place the TC back into the pump, they may damage the new seal anyway,, which you won't notice untill it's too late, by then water and grime will be in there and will have stuffed the internals anyway,, not to mention the labour costs in the first place. The hardest thing is to make sure they flush it properly in the fisrt place,, some guys just do it better than others :eek:

all of which should be covered by warranty....

and if you don't notice the hemorrhaging of oil out of the bell housing and the loss of drive from no oil in the box caused by the lack of oil in the box then you probably shouldn't be driving.

as I said, replacing the TC removes the need for an extensive flushing procedure as all other components of the box can be drained and flushed as individual entities.


from memory george130 has experienced what happens when the lockup clutch gets contaminated....

look at it this way...

to do the TC or repair the box it has to come out which means

if you do the TC now

you have to get the car to the mechanics (its there already)
the cars off the road (which it already is)
you have to pay to get the box out
you have to pay for the parts.(should be just a TC seals and consumables at this point)

if you flush the box and its not perfect (which you may not find out for quite a while)
you had to get the car to the mechanics (its there now)
youve had the car off the road for the transmission flush (which it is ATM)
you pay for the time to do the flush
you pay for the consumables to do the flush
Then
at some semi random probably inconvenient time, the cars off the road with a dead transmission
you have to pay to recover the car to the mechanics, (its unlikely to break down in his driveway)
you have to pay for the box out
you have to pay for the parts. (which will probabley be a gearbox overhaul, TC and consumables)

[Ausfree]

Update on the sorry saga of my Freelander, went down to the mechanic's today with the hope of picking it up, only to be told that he had every thing back together, started the motor and it ran perfectly for thirty seconds then stalled with a heap of error codes. Car would not restart unless you left it for a few moments then the same thing would happen. He demonstrated this to me.:(

Called in a mechanic from All4X4 at Kotara who couldn't help so the car has to be taken to All4X4 to hook up to their diagnostics. Car has been off the road for a month now, getting beyond a joke. If it wasn't for the boss lending me a work car I would be in real strife as far as transport is concerned.:(

[Blknight.aus]

sounds like the ECU has taken a dunking or some part of the data bus is not playing the game.

unless its a set of bad earths that wont be cheap.

[woko]

what error codes was it coming up with

[Ausfree]

what error codes was it coming up with
Mate, I don't know, not being a mechanic, I will contact him tomorrow, as Blknight has just said and the mechanic said also, it could be the ECU, keeps getting worse and worse!!!!:( Any guesses on the cause, although I suppose it could be any one of a dozen things including the ECU?:(

[woko]

your right it could be a number of things. could be as simple as the earth strap off the gear box was removed when cooler was replaced and has been forgotten to be put back on

[101RRS]

Could be as simple that the ignition has been turned on with things pulled off and the ECU has not received the signals it expected so has logged fault codes - maybe as simple as clearing codes and all will be well (most likely not but you can hope).

Garry

[Ausfree]

Thanks Garry,
Your input very much appreciated.
Cheers.:D:D

[Ausfree]

Just back from visiting the mechanic and this is what I have learned. Connected the battery and tried to start the car, would not start and showed error codes P0123 and P0562.
Disconnected and then reconnected battery, car started and then ran smoothly for about thirty seconds and stalled. Error codes this time where P0341, P0113, P0107, P1475, P0505, the computer the mechanic had showed what each code was.
The mechanic then demonstrated that when he pulled on the Accelerator Cable in the engine bay you could hear a noise like a relay quickly opening and closing. When that noise stopped you could then restart the car again to run for thirty seconds before stalling.
The mechanic has spoken to auto transmission specialists in Newcastle and they say, because coolant has got into the auto tranny, it WILL fail.
The vehicle will be going to All4X4 today to see if they can sought it out.:(

[woko]

sound like a wiring issue or a earth issue.
here's what the P codes mean
P0123 Throttle position sensor out of range high
P0562 battery voltage low
P0341 Cam shaft position sensor circuit failure
P0113 Air temp sensor out of range
P0107 MAP sensor failure low
P1475 Evap emission control circuit failure
P0505 Idle air control valve circuit failure
Its stalling with the IAC valve failure and not restarting with Cam sensor.
You were saying that you were getting the thermostat replaced has your mechanic damaged wiring when he has had the intake removed

[Ausfree]

Thanks Woko, for that, yes thermostat was replaced because the gunk from the coolant/auto tranny oil gummed it up. As you know (and I am quickly learning) to get to the thermostat they had to pull out the manifold and I saw the injectors out ( I think it was from the front bank). The mechanic was talking about new seals for the injectors. Rear bank injectors looked like they where still in place.:). As I said before I am not a mechanic but I am puzzled as why all of a sudden we have a ECU problem.:o

[Blknight.aus]

p0526 is the clue you have voltage supply issues,

check the relays, fuses and connectors + all the earths.

you may have also killed the regulator for the alternator and are getting an AC ripple that the system cant deal with.

3vac ripple is enough to upset the CAT ECU and trigger the charge fail light 6v triggers spurious erros and 8v can cause shutdown.

[Ausfree]

Thanks for that Bliknight, when you say 'Killed the regulator for the alternator" what do you mean? As I am not a mechanic but it is starting to look like the mechanic hasn't earthed something properly somewhere when he has reassembled the motor, would that be correct? Also it is out of my hands as the vehicle has been taken to All4X4 who have the diagnostics to asscertain the problem. I am getting my hopes up that the vehicle does not need a new ECU, but a simple reprogramming of the existing ECU, would that be correct?:confused:

[Blknight.aus]

the alternator internally creates AC voltage (which is what you get out of the mains sockets in your house) the regulator pack is basically a do hicky that converts that to DC (which you get out of a battery) and limits the voltage so you dont overcharge the battery or cook electronics.

Landrover earths were bad enough when all they had to run was some lights and the coil now that super sensitive electronics have become involved a fuzzy earth can spin all sorts of wierdo stuff as can corroded contacts on fuses or alternators.


Aluminium bits with steel bolts holding tinned copper parts while having electricery passed through them is a recipe for electrical hassles.

[101RRS]

I am getting my hopes up that the vehicle does not need a new ECU, but a simple reprogramming of the existing ECU, would that be correct?:confused:

I doubt there is anything wrong with the ECU itself unless it has shorted or suffered some voltage spikes when the engine was worked on. It sounds as if it is doing its job in that it is detecting issues and reporting where they are.

Good luck with it.

Garry

[woko]

any news from All 4x4

[Tusker]

your right it could be a number of things. could be as simple as the earth strap off the gear box was removed when cooler was replaced and has been forgotten to be put back on

Earth strap missing is my guess. Causes all sorts of weird issues. Happened to me twice now, both times by reputable workshops, takes ages to find.

Regards
Max P

[Ausfree]

any news from All 4x4
Yeah, mate problem solved with the ECU, it was a minor issue, now we have to get the vehicle back so my mechanic can flush out the radiator then I will have to get the tranny flushed. spoke to the mechanic this arvo, my patience is running thin, the vehicle has now been off the road for a month.:mad:

[woko]

good to hear nothing major, you have had enough trouble already

[Ausfree]

Got the Freelander back today after spending $1600:eek::eek: on the repairs, the mechanic admitted that he caused the problem to the ECU which meant the car had to be trucked to ALL4X4 for repair, so he wore the cost of the repair and transport there and back.
Spoke to Bob Hunt Auto's at Maitland as recommended by Woko (thanks mate) and he is willing to flush the tranny, but he is pessimistic on the long term survival of the box. I notice there is still sludge in the coolant, the mechanic said he flushed it several times and it would need flushing again, but he says the hoses will eventually perish because of their contact with the tranny fluid.:mad:
Sitting here having a beer at the moment drowning my sorrows:(:(
cost of a tranny rebuild....astronomical.
cost to replace all the hoses......bloody lots.

What to do......I don't want to sell it, it's such a nice car, drives well, the wife loves it also. But it looks like I will have to sell it as the costs are going to outway its value.:(:(

[woko]

Best thing I found for cleaning out cooling system (after doing numerous K1.8 head gaskets) was front loader washing powder. it sounds strange but it works

[Blknight.aus]

what will take out the auto will be the TC stripping its clutch.

I'll put a carton up against it.

[Ausfree]

Have next two days off work, will spend Wednesday flushing the radiator and the car is booked in at Bob Hunts at Maitland on Thurs for an Auto flush:) Bob has been very helpful!!!

[Ausfree]

thanks Woko, for EMailing me the Rave Disc sections on flushing Freelander Radiators.:) Wifey will today get some Front Loader Washing Powder, she says, "ah, I know why he suggested that, it doesn't suds up".

[Fluids]

Hey Ausfree ... hope things all go a little smoother for you than they have already.

Good luck !

Kev..

[Ausfree]

Hey Ausfree ... hope things all go a little smoother for you than they have already.

Good luck !

Kev.. Thanks Mate, I am also having trouble coding the radio, rang ALL 4X4 who told me to ring Trivetts in Sydney. The guy gave me a six digit code which I don't think is right, I think it needs a four digit code. Being the second owner of the vehicle I don't have the book on the radio, so I have no idea how to punch the code in. I believe the radio becomes unusable after a certain amount of failed attempts. I have been on the internet and had a look at the Rave site and all the Freelander radios are different to the one I've got. Ideas anybody??:confused: The radio is a Eurovox Model 8790FR and the display panel is square and shows a small "1" at the top of the screen. I assume this means "enter the first digit of the code". The radio has a cassette player in the facia and a six stacker CD player under the front passengers seat.

[Scouse]

Can you send me the 10 digit serial number via PM ?

Try 1 1 1 1 - if that works, it's a 4 digit code.
If it needs 1 1 1 1 1 1, then it's a 6.
It's only a service code though & will only get the radio going for 5min.

[Fluids]

Hey Aus' ...

Refer to this old post of mine. Went through the same issue with the factory CD/Radio in the D2a when we purchased it.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/82670-d2a-cd-radio-security-code-de-code-visteon-6500-cd-europe.html

... and fwiw, Super Glue saved the day! :)

Give it a try Aus'. My code was only 4 digits btw.

Kev..

[Fluids]

.. or maybe try here. These guys are Eurovox Australia.

Go Technologies Pty Ltd
55 Rocco Drive
Scoresby 3179
Victoria

Phone: 03 9237-0800
Fax: 03 9237-0808

Goy my DVD remote & headphone pads from them for the disco.

John Ou was the guy who helped me out. Very helpful.

Good luck
Kev..

[Ausfree]

Thanks Fluids, Scouse has kindly PM,d me and confirmed the code I already have from Trivetts is the correct one. Now all I gotta do is figure out how to push the right buttons on the radio.!!!!:D:D

[woko]

Yes thats correct with front loader washing powder. I think freelanders are 6 digit for radio code

[Ausfree]

Yes thats correct with front loader washing powder. I think freelanders are 6 digit for radio code
Thanks mate, Scouse has helped me out, it is a six figure code, I have to wait now because of my bumbling a couple of times the dial has a ---- on it. I hope I have a lot more goes before the radio becomes unusable. Last time it did the old ---- I waited an hour.:):)

[Ausfree]

Got It!!!! After mucking about with the radio code for most of the day, I have punched the code in and the radio is now working, what threw me was the number on the display panel on the radio was different to the number on the button you where pushing. Scouse, thanks very much for your efforts, much appreciated!!!!:D:D

[Fluids]

Cool .... transmissions stuffed, but the radio now works! :eek: :p :wasntme: .... hey, my wife would be impressed ! ;)

Hope your transmission flush is as successful mate ! That was nice of Scouse to sort out your code.

Almost ready for Stockton Beach ? .... I'll throw a spare can or two of "Transmission's Stuffed" into the recovery gear bag ...

... just in case :D

Cheers
Kev..

[Ausfree]

thanks for your words of encouragement (I think), when the transmission eventually breaks down at least I can listen to the radio while I am waiting for a towtruck;) Anyway, not being a mechanic, I feel I have achieved something today, tomorrows challenge (thanks to help from Woko) is to flush the radiator, there is still some gunk in there.
Thursdays challenge is to have the Auto box flushed, which is a bigger challenge because all the advice I have been given is that it will eventually fail, no matter what, will have a heart to heart with Bob Hunt at Maitland (the auto tranny guy), who has been very helpful on the phone.:):)

[Ausfree]

Well, I had the tranny flushed out last week, Bob Hunt Auto's at Maitland is of the opinion, the tranny will not last, by the way you should have seen the strawberry icecream that came out of the tranny box. He refilled it with a fluid used in Fords, which is not the right fluid but he said it is only a quarter of the price and as the tranny WILL fail it is a waste of money putting the right fluid in.
Today, I had the radiator flushed out with more success, coolant system is now good as new. While I was having this carried out I went around to Bob and enquired on the price to replace the tranny, he gave me worse case scenario:eek::eek: but said he would strip the transmission and see if things can be done to save it. (not optimistic). Bob said if he put a new transmission in he would replace the radiator cooler with an air cooled one from a diesel model, which means, the problem will not reocur. Apparently the BA Falcon is set up the same and both Bob and the Radiator guy said they do a lot of work on them.
Why did Landrover not put an air cooled transmission cooler on the petrol models in the first place is beyond me!!!:eek::eek:
The transmission is not good with rough changes every now and then and sometimes hanging on in a gear.:(
thats the update!!!:(:)

[Blknight.aus]

the reason why its got a coolant cooled heat exhchanger is because they are more efficient at dealing with peak loads and can handle a higher heat load at lower speeds.

[Ausfree]

the reason why its got a coolant cooled heat exhchanger is because they are more efficient at dealing with peak loads and can handle a higher heat load at lower speeds.
Makes sense, but they don't leak coolant into the auto box an **** it!!!:mad::)

[Blknight.aus]

no, they let you boil the oil when your working it hard and kill it that way.

ask george130 about killing auto oil.

[Ausfree]

Then why put the air cooled version in the diesel Freebi's???:confused::)

[Blknight.aus]

different torque converter, the cooling system is different and they may not have been able to get it in.

I think its also got different gearing which means theres less load on the TC.

thats just best guess.

[woko]

Diesels run the same cooler as the petrol in cold climates. Land Rover calls Australia a tropical climate. and the air cooler we have in the diesels are for hot climates. dont know why LR never used them in the petrols

[DionM]

Been a long time since I've posted over here ... :D

A mate of mine had a TD4 Freelander and he cooked the oil in the autobox very easily. If you're doing towing I'd be reluctant to change the cooler as it is not as efficient.

The Jatco 5 spd is VERY sensitive to oil so ensure when you get it replaced it is the correct oil. The early batch of Autos had to be replaced due to wrong oil (my old V6 Auto included).