Lucas ignition amplifier replacement by Bosch 024

[bee utey]

Well, I finally remembered to get the camera out when I did another Bosch ignition amplifier conversion.

The vehicle here is a '75 RR 3.5 with a distributor from an '87 RR EFI.

The first picture shows the ignition module close up: terminal 3 is 4.8mm wide, it is connected to a new red wire from the distributor. Terminal 7 is connected to a new black wire from the distributor. Terminal 15 goes to the coil +ve. Terminal 16 goes to the coil -ve.

The next picture shows a HEI coil and heatsink set from an early Camira. It has a module that I haven't bothered investigating, so I replace it with the Bosch BIM024 module. To do that you remove the two plastic locator pins off the module, use plenty of the heatsink paste, and assemble.

The next picture shows the coil and module mounted, ignition positive to the coil positive, and I left the original negative connector for the (future) tacho. This is the connection the EFI engine uses to drive the computer.

The last picture shows the distributor with the new red and black wires connected to where the module usually goes. I made two male 3.2mm crimp terminals by cutting 6.3mm ones with sharp tin snips, I could have done it neater but with a healthy dob of silicone it will hold there just fine. When I do a later (3.9) distributor, the existing cable that goes to the original amplifier (blue and red wires?) can have two new female crimps fitted at the coil end, and applied to the new amplifier.

What happens if you get the polarity of the two wires reversed? Then the amplifier will trigger (roughly, from the falling pulse) and your ignition timing will be out by a large amount, if it runs at all. When connected the right way around, the timing should occur near where the magnetic pick-up meets the star rotor on the distributor shaft. The air gap here is critical, it should be adjusted to the smallest gap allowing free rotation, otherwise low speed operation might be somewhat erratic.

I have done about 30 of these conversions, none have come back to haunt me. The coil and module can be sourced from older car wreckers, I usually pay around $10 each. The module was fitted to large numbers of Australian production cars around the early 80's, before EFI became popular. So if you know where there is a VH commodore distributor or similar, the module lives under the tin cover on one side of the dissy.

Cheers and happy rovering.:)

[Michael2]

What came first - the faulty ignition module or the faulty coil?

Well, I think in my case the wrong coil killed the ignition module, leading to a cascade of autoelectrical mayhem.

Thanks to bee utey for his informed advice and for sending me one of his modified ignition systems.

I had to remove the dizzy to remove the old ignition module, so my advice is be careful lining it back up. Remember it rotates 30degrees as you slot it through the drive gear, so mark the spot where the rotor button is before you remove it, then, as you slide it back in, start with the rotor button 30 degrees earlier (say it's in the 6 o'clock position when you remove it, slide it in with the button in the 5 o'clock position, so that it ends up in the 6 o'clock posi). My initial misalignment led to some timing issues, but bee utey was able to
talk them over on the phone and the system is now running well.

Having an easy to repair / replace Bosch system under the bonnet also makes future repairs less likely, less costly, and less time consuming.

[bee utey]

And finally, a pic of the late D1 with the remote coil module/amp. The dissy harness terminates at the new module/amp, black wire earthed to module earth screw, blue wire to top terminal (terminal 3) red wire to 2nd terminal (terminal 7). This conversion has been on the road for a few months, the only recent problem was traced to the only non-modified terminal, the LR 12 volt feed wire. I replaced its crimp, hopefully that's it for now.:)

[roverv8]

Well for some time ive been trying to nut out a problem with my Fathers 96 Discovery V8I,
At random, it would backfire or (frontfire) igniting the LPG in the plentium chamber.
After replacing the Rotor, dizzy cap, plugs, also the leads & carefully spacing them out still had the same problem.

So i bought a new amplifier module from the UK, fitted to the vehicle and it lasted about half a day, lost all spark.
after a few weeks, finally got a replacment module from the seller,
and it lasted about 20 minutes of a test drive, so it appears the coil & module were both stuffed!! Coil possibly burning out the new modules

Next move was to fit one of bee utey's bosch conversion, which i now wish i had of done to start with, after all the $$ spent on orig type modules and other ignition parts
Very easy to fit, vehicle starts at the touch of the key, drives very smooth, most importantly it hasn't backfired or missed a beat at all, Ive given it a hard time on & off road.
Bee utey's bosch conversion is economical and a great way to give your ignition system a far better spark.

Thanks bee utey for sharing your conversion with AULRO members. :twobeers:

Luke

[Scrapper]

Hi Bee Utey,

Thanks for your great information on the Bosch amplifier conversion. I've got a slightly different problem. A few years ago I upgraded my '86 Range Rover with a brand new imported 3.9 high compression engine that turns out to have been manufactured for a Morgan Plus 8. The advance curve on the standard Lucas distributor is nowhere near what the engine needs. I'm looking at replacing the amplifier with a programmable module to remap the ignition and do away with the standard advance system but I'm stuck on where to get the tacho pulse for the old Lucas L EFI ECU. It currently comes from the existing amplifier and I'm tempted to just hook it up to the negative terminal on the coil but I don't want to blow up my ECU by sending it a signal that's too high. Do you have any experience fitting the Bosch module to an old Lucas L EFI system?

[bee utey]

Hi Bee Utey,

Thanks for your great information on the Bosch amplifier conversion. I've got a slightly different problem. A few years ago I upgraded my '86 Range Rover with a brand new imported 3.9 high compression engine that turns out to have been manufactured for a Morgan Plus 8. The advance curve on the standard Lucas distributor is nowhere near what the engine needs. I'm looking at replacing the amplifier with a programmable module to remap the ignition and do away with the standard advance system but I'm stuck on where to get the tacho pulse for the old Lucas L EFI ECU. It currently comes from the existing amplifier and I'm tempted to just hook it up to the negative terminal on the coil but I don't want to blow up my ECU by sending it a signal that's too high. Do you have any experience fitting the Bosch module to an old Lucas L EFI system?

If you are talking about the standard EFI on your 86 RR I did a bosch conversion to my brothers 3.5 which went for 50 000km before breaking the crank. The ECU signal came from the negative coil terminal just like the later ones. I would check where exactly your pulse wire is connected, it may be looped inside the harness with a resistor or something, I can't remember exactly. If not try a high value resistor in series, dropping its value until your pulses fire the ECU.

[blitz]

and to add my two bobs worth mine is going like a rocket since you changed mine :D

[roverv8]

Ive also added the Bosch conversion to my 94 Discovery,
It's now running like a clock and way more responsive, easier to start also.
Cheers Bee utey

[wattysan]

Bee Utey, Thanks heaps for your help and advice to set it up.

Your module upgrade completed last night has done wonders to my Discovery 1. It is running exceptionally well on LPG now, and you can barely recognise the difference in power to petrol, if at all. It is likely driving a different car.

The Discovery has been in my possession since late 2008 and has always had an underlying electrical problem. I wish I had stumbled on your thread 2 years ago, it could have saved me many dollars from so-called experts.

[400HPONGAS]

Bee utey , that dizy module amp swap , looks like the HEI Big Cap setup on one of WB statesman / VK or VL Bosch HEI arrangement .Got a couple of those Big cap dizzy left complete in the shed (just usually change over to the Fraud Cap and Button) All male terminals standard so use HEC716 or HEC718 T-coils , Still , the T-coils look nice but dont perform as well as the Oil-filled/coiled jobs So Ive a couple of 1988 EFI STd
dizzies with amps on the side as well.thought they were playing up so I fitted an 1985 RRC carb dizzy with a crane xr700 trigger . Worked well for a few thousand till it burnt out the coil ! forgot to change from low-resistance coil (.45) to (MEC716) to say a GT40 (3.1K) (Not the R) Those aftermarket "optical " jobs really act as a "Points replacement system" so Points type coil is required .

[bee utey]

Bee utey , that dizy module amp swap , looks like the HEI Big Cap setup on one of WB statesman / VK or VL Bosch HEI arrangement .Got a couple of those Big cap dizzy left complete in the shed (just usually change over to the Fraud Cap and Button) All male terminals standard so use HEC716 or HEC718 T-coils , Still , the T-coils look nice but dont perform as well as the Oil-filled/coiled jobs So Ive a couple of 1988 EFI STd dizzies with amps on the side as well.thought they were playing up so I fitted an 1985 RRC carb dizzy with a crane xr700 trigger . Worked well for a few thousand till it burnt out the coil ! forgot to change from low-resistance coil (.45) to (MEC716) to say a GT40 (3.1K) (Not the R) Those aftermarket "optical " jobs really act as a "Points replacement system" so Points type coil is required .

Fully agree with you there. Before I developed this conversion I fitted quite a few Crane XR700 kits. The coils were usually replaced with GT40R coils, retaining the ballast resistor. This worked so long as the XR700 was wired to ign positive before the ballast. Using the GT40 is perfectly legit without a ballast.

This morning I did a conversion which I started ages ago. Using a 351C points dissy I converted its internals to the HEI pick-up (same as the Holden VK/WB ) which required some delicate machining to accurately locate the centre wheel. This all got stuffed into a F350 owned by the local plumber, using a coil and module set like the one I pictured. I am so glad the cap and rotor can be swapped about on all the V8 Bosch dissy's so long as you know what comes off what.

[coops71]

Bee Utey: Can you suggest what type of new coil I should purchase for this setup? I have the bim024 module and feel rich enough to go and buy a good coil. I Should have the beast going on the weekend. Thought I had issues with the carb but now it seems to be a weak spark issue at WOT.

[bee utey]

Bee Utey: Can you suggest what type of new coil I should purchase for this setup? I have the bim024 module and feel rich enough to go and buy a good coil. I Should have the beast going on the weekend. Thought I had issues with the carb but now it seems to be a weak spark issue at WOT.

The original Ford 6 HEI ignition uses a female post type transformer coil Bosch part number MEC717 which is a good match for the bim024. The V8 uses the MEC723A which also works well on the bim024. Some correspondents mention using a BIC290 cylinder type coil but the one I bought is a no-name-brand in a Bosch box. I have yet to try it in a vehicle.

[coops71]

OK - Ive got the module in and had the car running(once I got the dizzy back around 180degs the right way). Starts easier, runs smoother. I decided to pull my old disco dizzy apart and didn't count on messing up the air gap for the magnetic pickup. Anyway I set it to around 10 thou. Maybe even closer. Drove around for 10km. Thing starts to run like crap below 1000-1500 rpm. Tacho goes erratic. Runs terrific on lpg above these revs. Still runs like crap at WOT.
Next morning take out old coil and put in neglected disco coil(out in rain for two years). Thing now pulls like crazy at WOT on LPG. Awesome. Still has bad idle and tacho wierdness at low revs. Is it possible I got the pickup too close and made some iron filings that are messing up the signal from the pickup or could both coils be stuffed? Hoping not a new module has played up. Leads are all good and new plugs.

[bee utey]

It sounds like you have the tacho connected to the coil, unlike the standard Rover type connected to the alternator. I have just tested my spare dissy I use for testing these conversions and measured 7 thou air gap. So some other possibilities are:
1. you have wired the pick-up wires to the amp the wrong way around. Please see if you have wired the pick-up as per the pics early on this thread. If you reverse the wires the triggering will happen as the pick-up's spiky bit travels away from the point of closest contact. This "falling" pulse is much weaker at low RPM and will cause erratic firing with the rotor away from the dissy posts.
2. You have loose connectors. I cannot emphasise enough how important tight and clean terminals at the coil and amp are for proper function. ANY of the power terminals being loose WILL cause erratic running. I am still amazed at people who use cheap open crimps on these terminals. Only fully insulated terminals should be used. I get a pair of pliers and carefully close each crimp to ensure maximum grip. Most of my problems during development have been due to poor terminals. Bitter experience makes me harp on this.
3. Have you mounted the amp on a heat sink with the proper heatsinking paste? The amp earth is via its mounting screws so a dirty earth path is fatal to good reliable spark. The screw holes and area adjacent to the screws should be free of paste. The heatsink should be firmly bolted to the body somewhere with good metal contact. Otherwise a new earth wire to the battery or engine earth is needed. The Ford set-up mentioned below was bolted to a plastic inner guard with a fattish earth wire to the battery and works well.

[coops71]

Thanks Bee utey for your patience and your detailed response. The problem was the dizzy. I had swapped the gear back and forth between dizzys to accommodate the oil pump drive. I had previously tried to fit the spacer back on the shaft just above the gear but it would not fit. I assumed it must not be part of the non pump drive type dizzy as it made the shaft very hard to turn so I left it out. Also, I could only find one spacer between two dizzys so it seemed to make sense. Tonight, after removing the distributor to get a good look at the air gap there was ample room to put the spacer in on the shaft. I don't know where it came from, but I put the spacer back in. Erratic tacho gone :) One other point: Does the alternator tacho wire give the same pulse as the coil? Thanks once again for your help. Sorry if Ive hijacked this thread somewhat.

[bee utey]

Does the alternator tacho wire give the same pulse as the coil?

I don't think so, the coil gives 4 pulses per crank rev, the alternator gives 6 pulses per alt rev, times the pulley ratio, more likely to be 15-25 pulses per crank rev.

[MARS ROVER]

Thanks for your knowledge bee utey. it was well illustrated enough to give me courage to do the conversion. thanks.
i ended up using a generic module for $46 and coil $26 from veals.
cheers!

[85 county]

bee utey, how much to do this if i just turn up?

[bee utey]

bee utey, how much to do this if i just turn up?
PM sent...

[BigJon]

Couple of photos of the conversion I did today. This is 96 Disco ignition, although it is fitted to my 87 RRC.

I reused the original wiring where possible. You can see where the distributor blue and red wires have to connect to the new module.

Ignition timing was still OK, test drive to come.

[BigJon]

Results of test drive: No noticeable difference from when I last drove the vehicle with standard ignition. That was two weeks ago though, maybe I just haven't noticed. I will be driving it to Adelaide next week so I can get an idea of open road driving then.

[coops71]

I have to tell you a happy story regarding this conversion. I converted my 110 to a Bosch module two weeks before we we did the Holland track. About 100 km out of Southern cross we found a couple in their 50-60s with their 76 Rangie and caravan set up straddling a ditch on the gravel road. Apparently the module had died(he had tested it with a multimeter). He was on the mobile to a sparky getting a new stock module. Showed him my conversion and mentionned the price. He had a later electronic dizzy like mine so he made a diagram for the wiring. Seemed very happy to be saving a fair bit of coin. We came back two or three days later and he was gone. Apparently he only lives 5km from me so I'll need to see how he went.

[bee utey]

Just posting up my nylon clip repair thread here for dizzy fiddlers...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/116123-lucas-v8-dissy-nylon-clip-repair-method.html

[cockie55]

Hey bee utey how about adding wiring diagram for transformer style coils like the Bosch HEC 715 or MEC 717 to this excellent tutorial/project .......or do you think transformer style are not as good as the old oil filled/can style????

[BigJon]

Results of test drive: No noticeable difference from when I last drove the vehicle with standard ignition. That was two weeks ago though, maybe I just haven't noticed. I will be driving it to Adelaide next week so I can get an idea of open road driving then.

As an addition to this.

My drive to Adelaide saw slightly better fuel consumption (I think, I don't keep accurate figures).
What I did notice was a lot more mid range torque. Hills that were a struggle in 5th gear, or even needed 4th gear prior to the conversion were dispatched easily in 5th.

[BigJon]

Hey bee utey how about adding wiring diagram for transformer style coils like the Bosch HEC 715 or MEC 717 to this excellent tutorial/project .......or do you think transformer style are not as good as the old oil filled/can style????

Like I used and pictured above? Wiring is the same. The coil still has positive and negative posts.

[bee utey]

Hey bee utey how about adding wiring diagram for transformer style coils like the Bosch HEC 715 or MEC 717 to this excellent tutorial/project .......or do you think transformer style are not as good as the old oil filled/can style????

Wiring diagram? I could but with 4 wires there's not much to do: from my first post:

The first picture shows the ignition module close up: terminal 3 is 4.8mm wide, it is connected to a new red wire from the distributor. Terminal 7 is connected to a new black wire from the distributor. Terminal 15 goes to the coil +ve. Terminal 16 goes to the coil -ve.

With the update for the later dissy (serp engine) Terminal 3 blue wire from dissy, Terminal 7 red wire from dissy.

No good reason at all for my using oil filled coils other that they work well and reliably and I can usually get them for $10 complete with the heatsink. And they look original which is important to some of the vehicle owners I make these for. However I found that they are best mounted vertically. They can leak when mounted horizontally.

Sometimes I score a nearly new transformer coil and use it, such as in the special kit I made to fit between a D1 air box and ABS unit. This was a tight fit, took a little thinking.

New the trannie coils are around $50 to $70 (Coventry's specials list $43 + GST) so not that expensive only I like recycling good cheap bits.:)

[cockie55]

Thanks for that bee utey. The tranny style coil certainly opens up more mounting options. Sorry BigJon I missed seeing you had used one in your conversion.

[Utemad]

Hi BeeUtey.

When you do these conversions for your customers, do you do it to replace dead modules or is there an expected improvement over a working module?

I have relocated my standard module from the dizzy (MY95 Disco) to the inner guard and have a spare module for emergencies from a wrecked later model that is the factory remote mount version which looks the same but remote on a heatsink.

Others have claimed improvements but was just wondering if this is worth doing when the factory one isn't dead.

Supercheap quoted a bit over $60 ordered from Bosch just for added info for people.

[BigJon]

Others have claimed improvements but was just wondering if this is worth doing when the factory one isn't dead.



My factory system was working before I replaced it.

[bee utey]

Hi BeeUtey.

When you do these conversions for your customers, do you do it to replace dead modules or is there an expected improvement over a working module?

I have relocated my standard module from the dizzy (MY95 Disco) to the inner guard and have a spare module for emergencies from a wrecked later model that is the factory remote mount version which looks the same but remote on a heatsink.

Others have claimed improvements but was just wondering if this is worth doing when the factory one isn't dead.

Supercheap quoted a bit over $60 ordered from Bosch just for added info for people.

In good condition the standard amp/coil set-up works well on petrol, and OK on LPG without lean cruise. However since converting LR's (D1's especially) to LPG I have had a 30% failure rate (at least) in these things, even on new cars just out of the dealers. They are very marginal.

Back in 1996 I had one call from a customer stuck in Collins St Melbourne, caravan on the back, because his brand new D1 failed to go on either fuel. I spoke to some mechanics north of Adelaide who used to see D1's towed back to the stealers every day for dead ignition fixes. So I adapted this conversion from another vehicle I was doing it for, and it has proved very reliable and strong. And the amp is available from just about any car parts outlet or dealer in the country. Not that I have had to replace any yet. That's right, not one has failed and been brought to my attention. And I have done about 100 over a range of vehicles.

BTW other vehicle have included P76's, Valiants, Dodge trucks, Land Cruisers, Starfire Coronas, Datsuns and almost anything else on points. I machine off the points cam and press on a star rotor, usually off a Chrysler dissy (4, 6 or 8 cyl), wire up a Bosch module/coil set and that's the end of points burning for ever. Once I even made a V8 rotor out of two 4 cyl Sigma rotors, carefully machined out and teeth interlocking. Fiddly but fun.

Basically on a D1/RRC I would offer the upgrade as insurance against Lucas Disease to save the regular "Why doesn't it go?" phone call within a few months. So about 1/2 were fitted after death or partial failure of the Lucas item. Some never got it and continue to run well.

So, if you have a spare Lucas amp by all means stick with the original, just I personally have no faith in them.

[cockie55]

Hi BeeUtey.

When you do these conversions for your customers, do you do it to replace dead modules or is there an expected improvement over a working module?

I have relocated my standard module from the dizzy (MY95 Disco) to the inner guard and have a spare module for emergencies from a wrecked later model that is the factory remote mount version which looks the same but remote on a heatsink.

Others have claimed improvements but was just wondering if this is worth doing when the factory one isn't dead.

Supercheap quoted a bit over $60 ordered from Bosch just for added info for people.

Hi Utemad. I think you will find your ignition module from Supercheapo will be a chinese copy of the OEM Lucas STC1184 module. If packaged Bosch a fake I think. In all the modules Bosch make they don't have a swapout for the STC1184 which says a lot about the Lucas setup.

What draws me to bee uteys project is it economically deals with the weak and unreliable nature of the Lucas module. I have had one major failure and an anoying miss at a one speed/revs caused by a dodgy amp module.

Remember the module is the backbone to lighting things up in terms of the period of time that the coil is turned on (dwell) and when (based on the signal it gets from the dizzy). The module in a dizzy system (no ECU to regulate timing) is what monitors the coil dwell to ensure the target current from the coil is always reached.

This energy delivery is pretty important in one coil having to deal with 8 cylinders as opposed to more modern multi-coil setups of up to one coil per cylinder. The coil is responsible for delivering up the required amount of energy at the required dwell, particularly important at higher revs. However I suspect if you installed any half decent old oil filled electronic coil the stock Lucas module would cook whereas a matching module like the BIM024 would not blink using that same coil.

I haven’t got my head around transformer style coils but apart from maybe overkill, it seems the medium energy ones recover more quickly and may be better suited to single dizzy one coil setups in a V8 than higher energy coils. That said this is bee uteys territory and expertise.

[Utemad]

Thanks BeeUtey. I will probably do this as it is quick and easy and as you say it removes a weak spot if nothing else. I do have lpg/petrol.


Hi Utemad. I think you will find your ignition module from Supercheapo will be a chinese copy of the OEM Lucas STC1184 module. If packaged Bosch a fake I think. In all the modules Bosch make they don't have a swapout for the STC1184 which says a lot about the Lucas setup.

I meant the BIM024 module was $60+ ish from Supercheap via Bosch. The LR module I have priced before and was told no Bosch replacement and whatever other brand they offered was around $250ish!. I only wanted one as a spare so pulled the one I do have from a wreck for nothing.

You can kill these things though. My brother has one running his 351 Landcruiser and the first one died quickly so he moved it to a cooler spot and it has been fine for the past 10 years or so like that. His engine bay gets seriously hot though.

[bee utey]

You can kill these things though. My brother has one running his 351 Landcruiser and the first one died quickly so he moved it to a cooler spot and it has been fine for the past 10 years or so like that. His engine bay gets seriously hot though.

That's right, the early ones fitted to the dissy tended to fry after 160,000km or so. That's why mine are all mounted remote from the block. Mind you I have fitted quite a few new 024 modules to original Ford/Holden dissy's and I suspect they have better heat tolerance than the original ones.

Following Cockie55's post I would recommend too to use the MEI coils, they are plenty for the app.

[cockie55]

Here are some energy test comparisons (measured in millijoules) for the "transformer style" coils (standard female style HT connector) mentioned here as being compatible with the BIM024 module (tests done using the BIM024 and at identical voltage and current).

HEC 715 - 92 mJ
MEC 717 - 70 mJ
MEC 723 - 121 mJ

The consensus seems to be that the MEC style coil will "recharge" target “dwell” quicker (compared to HEC) and therefore maybe more suitable for dizzy driven single coil V8’s.

Interestingly I think Ford only put the MEC 723 into V8’s (717 went into 6's and others) and the 121 mJ the 723 produces is very impressive. However as there is no such thing as a free lunch I would be thinking twice about how much more heat/stress on other parts, this coil produces......but then again in a low reving RV8 the MEC 723 / BIM024 combo might well be a grand option.

[Utemad]

I fitted one two weeks ago and so far have run 2 tanks of LPG through it. It certainly has more power on LPG now. Very noticeable. I also got 30km more out of the 1st tank and 20km more out of the 2nd than usual. Not bad for a 55L tank.

Petrol I've only tried in short bursts so don't know about that yet.

A very cheap and worthwhile upgrade.

[pibby]

Tried doing some research on ignition modules and coils. The consensus I came up with is it’s a black art not thoroughly understood by many, including myself, though this doesn’t stop people (including myself) contributing their opinions whether right or wrong!

Finally came across some good info. Here are the links :

High Energy Ignition Upgrade (http://www.dtec.net.au/High%20Energy%20Ignition%20Upgrade.htm)
Ignition Coil Energy Testing (http://www.dtec.net.au/Ignition%20Coil%20Energy%20Testing.htm)

though the main enlightener is this one (well for me at least) :
Ignition Coil Dwell Calibration (http://www.dtec.net.au/Ignition%20Coil%20Dwell%20Calibration.htm)

here’s some info cherry picked from these articles :

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1121.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1122.jpg



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1123.jpg 7 Amps of coil primary current

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1124.jpg 2 Amps of coil primary current

Sparks shown are using the same HEI coil at 13 volts and firing it into a spark gap of 5 mm. The difference was the coil current of 2 vs 7 Amps.



The Wiring : (for the BIM 024 module)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1125.jpg

The connections on the module are :
• 3 Negative input from pickup (the sensor in the distributor)
• 7 Positive input from pickup (the sensor in the distributor)
• 15 12V for module.
• 16 Coil negative.
• Case Vehicle Ground

I can’t remember where I read it but I believe the HEC coils are for hall effect dissys and won’t work with the bim024 module. The MEC are for VR (variable reluctor) dissys and so work with the bim024.

So I will get a bosch module and coil. The ign module is a no brainer BIM024. the coil will end up getting the MEC717. it is the same as the MEC718 but has a female connection for the dissy lead instead of the male on the MEC718. due to the drop off in coil current of the MEC723 after 2011 rpm I will steer away from it. the reason for the swapover is for lpg so want to ensure spark with maximum oomph being delivered throughout rev range. So although it can deliver more energy the MEC723 can’t do it at all the times when you need it. using the MEC717 means there is plenty of headroom throughout the rev range.

Also, read it enough times on many sites (so the weight of numbers means it must be true) that these high energy systems came about because of emissions control and were specifically made to ignite a lean mixture.

[blitz]

does anyone know the torque/rpm curves for a 3.9 / 4 / 4.6 are?? would be good to see them against the spark graphs above to try to match the best one.

generally I dont go much over 3500rpm but at times will go to 4500 (not even sure what it can rev to?)

So given that, I like the look of the MEC723 the main reason being I run through a relay straight to the coil so I get 14.3 at the coil looking at the graphs that means the fattest spark through the rev range I mostly work in (between 2k and 3k)

[BigJon]

3.9 will rev past 5500 on the factory tacho... but they are fairly screaming when they are up there.

[bee utey]

A few more pics of Bosch bits:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=35468&stc=1&d=1304133759

Last week's coil conversion on a 93 3.5 D1 mounted so the coil is upright.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=35469&stc=1&d=1304133806

Test rig: 7AH SLA battery, coil, old dissy.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=35470&stc=1&d=1304133822

Pulling a 15mm continuous spark off the coil by spinning the dissy with a battery drill. Adequate I think.

[dirtdawg]

its all a bit beyond me!! anyone in melb want to help me do it?

[cliffordbharvey]

Guys,

Have a 97 Disco 1.
Running on Lucas coil and what looks to be standard amplifier.

Please confirm if I am reading the threads properly.
On the '97 I can install a Bosch MEC717 coil
BIM 024 module.
I am running dual fuel.

The dissy and dissy cap? will need no direct work on them??

Let me know as power or economy are the concern for me.
After which I plan to look at tuning the ECU as is or piggy back a HALTEC Platinum.

Also what software can I run on windows 7 for tuning.
Linking the laptop is a small issue...software is different.

[bee utey]

Guys,

Have a 97 Disco 1.
Running on Lucas coil and what looks to be standard amplifier.

Please confirm if I am reading the threads properly.
On the '97 I can install a Bosch MEC717 coil
BIM 024 module.
I am running dual fuel.

The dissy and dissy cap? will need no direct work on them??

Let me know as power or economy are the concern for me.
After which I plan to look at tuning the ECU as is or piggy back a HALTEC Platinum.

Also what software can I run on windows 7 for tuning.
Linking the laptop is a small issue...software is different.

The conversion is suitable for vehicles using the standard dissy, rotor and cap. I built it especially because of issues I have met with dual fuel vehicles. With the correct plugs and leads you can run leaner mixtures safely for economy, and have a good spark for full power operation.

If you are going to programmable ignition you should maybe look at getting coil packs and a suitable ECU.

[cliffordbharvey]

Hey thank you for that.

You mention coil packs and suitable ECU.
1. my objective is power for fuel use or efficiency. Is the Disco ECU capabale of providing this control? (tunable?)

2. coil packs and programable ECU...what recomendations are there?
I only have 12,000kms on the clock and do not wish to toake a path of engine modifications. Just make it run as best we can with the standard engine.

I am open to the fun here. Last time I was building engines ECU's were just starting. Left because I did not like computers...now live on them for work and play.

Cliff

[cliffordbharvey]

120,000kms that is

[bee utey]

Coil pack conversions aren't my scene. Someone else on the forum has done it. One other has done it and removed it again. Personally I stick to the KISS principle where possible. Dissy's aren't ever absolutely optimum but 10 degrees idle advance is pretty good on a standard dissy/engine combo. Google "megasquirt" if you want to know about aftermarket ECU stuff for tinkerers.

[pibby]

hi cliff,

i put edis on my disco and.....pulled it all off again. it involves putting a trigger wheel on the crank pulley and finding a way/spot to mount the coilpacks. all this stuff is quite easy to source out of the US. you then need an ecu to make it work. you mention haltech, i built my own megasquirt - got it from here :

Megasquirt Kits / Assembled Engine Management Systems, Wideband o2 Sensor Systems and tuning products - DIYAutoTune.com (http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/index.php)

i didn't do fuel, only timing. had it all working with switchable timing maps which were automagically triggered when lpg came on. it was actually all working well and was great being able to play around with your timing curve whilst out driving.

as bee utey says the KISS principle has something going for it. bee utey installs a lot of mixer systems and uses closed loop with an oxygen sensor - i would highly recommend the closed loop for fuel control on a mixer system. i've got injected lpg and have installed the oem oxygen sensors being run by the 14cux as per PhilipA's tutorial on here to give fuel control.

the other thing i have also done it bee utey's bosch coil and amp conversion. once you have the parts i reckon a couple of hours and you are all done. it is noticeable the improvement and my ignition system was in good nick.

the BIG benefit i found was being able to control the timing. there is a huge difference between the timing curves for lpg and petrol. the motor in my disco is a HC 4.6 and it would fly on lpg with the correct timing curve. i've had te dissy regraphed for lpg now and it is set at 10 btdc to allow driving on petrol but the remainder of the curve is set up for lpg. it's nowhere near as quick of the mark now. you can get them regraphed purely for lpg too. i had it done by this mob :

Home (http://www.performanceignition.com.au/)

n.b. - i was chasing a fuel useage issue which wasn't resolved so pulled it all off again as it made it difficult to diagnose what was and wasn't working.

hth,
brett.

[cliffordbharvey]

Brett,

I like some technical tinkering.
The Bee Utey aproach will be first on the list.
Quick and effective. I priced localy the Amp @ $96 and coil @ $99, more browsing required...any suggestions for Qld?
My system has a Romano vapour injection system. The Disco 1 has no oxygen sensor..so an open system.

2nd on the list is to get the laptop to hook up to both the Romano system and the Landrover ECU's. Get the necessary software to manipulate the mixtures/curves for LPG & fuel.

Small step 1 first.
I'll let ther forum know how things progress.
Currently getting 4.1km/L LPG (3km/L towing tandem trailer across the Aust Bight.)
5.2km/L fuel.

Thanks guys.
I apreciate this.

[pibby]

Brett,

The Disco 1 has no oxygen sensor..so an open system.

2nd on the list is to get the laptop to hook up to both the Romano system and the Landrover ECU's. Get the necessary software to manipulate the mixtures/curves for LPG & fuel.



there is a thread on here by philipA detailing how to install oxy sensors. they came standard on the D1 in other markets. you can either get the NAS resistor or just pull out the aus spec resistor that's in there and by default it reads the NAS fuel map. this is what i've done on mine. that takes care of fuelling. obviously you need to install the oxygen sensors and the wiring loom.

i've got the software for my injected lpg. once you run closed loop there's really nothing to do. the only time you really need to play with fuelling is if you are running open loop (as you are now). you'll need something to give you the AF ratio otherwise you wont really know what the fuelling is doing.

i'm not into electronics at all but building the megasquirt was quite enjoyable. although i didn't do fuel it sure is an eye opener about all the decisions a vehicle ecu has to make based on the feedback from the engines sensors.

i reckon a good choice to start with the quick and easy one with the coil/amp conversion. can't remember what i paid for mine but those prices do seem a bit on the high side. although i got mine at repco when they had a 30% off sale on.

would be interested to hear what impact just the coil/amp has on your fuel use and engine performance.

best of luck with it.

[cliffordbharvey]

Guys,

I have made the install and left the condenser in place...makes no difference to leave it off.
Timing set at 6 degrees with vacuum off.
A noticable increase in low down power and will update on changes to economy as we go.

Problem I cannot work out.
I get unstable engine revs from 2000rpm onwards in the driveway, including banging in the exhaust. (too much advance?)
This is harder to notice while on the road.
I get stuttering and the occaisional backfire while coasting along.

I am guessing the vacuum advance has something to contribute to the problem here. Seems too sensitive.
Motor seems fine in deceleration and under load.

Any suggestions?

Cliffy

[PhilipA]

Problem I cannot work out.
I get unstable engine revs from 2000rpm onwards in the driveway, including banging in the exhaust. (too much advance?)
This is harder to notice while on the road.
I get stuttering and the occaisional backfire while coasting along.



Nothing to do with advance as 6 degrees is hardly advanced,and I would recommend trying 9 degrees for economy.

My first thought is that your TPS may be worn out, as they usually wear out just off idle. This is usually especially noticable as you "tip in" ie resume cruise after having foot off down a hill.
Regards Philip A

[superquag]

Would that be with the genuine BOSCH module ? ie, BOSCH printed all over it and made in Oz...

Or the $35 one on ebay.

The advert reads in part....


"Ford, Holden, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota

This module replaces Bosch numbers BIM024, 9 222 067 021

This is the very commonly used Bosch type module"



Does'nt EXACTLY say that it IS the 'genuine' Aussie-made BOSCH unit....

In the world of electronics, as I used to know it, a brand new part was regarded as unreliable till it had done over a thousand hours, after which it was regarded as immortal. Or, most active components fail early on in their life rather than later, the exceptions to this ROT are heat-related where adequate cooling is an issue. - eg, resin encapsulated ECU/Ign ignitors like the old Valiant Lean Burn computer mounted on the air filter. If a leaf or three got in and blocked the cooling air by-pass.......

Which is another way of saying that the wreckers Ign module is perfectly acceptable to use.

[bee utey]

Guys,

I have made the install and left the condenser in place...makes no difference to leave it off.
Timing set at 6 degrees with vacuum off.
A noticable increase in low down power and will update on changes to economy as we go.

Problem I cannot work out.
I get unstable engine revs from 2000rpm onwards in the driveway, including banging in the exhaust. (too much advance?)
This is harder to notice while on the road.
I get stuttering and the occaisional backfire while coasting along.

I am guessing the vacuum advance has something to contribute to the problem here. Seems too sensitive.
Motor seems fine in deceleration and under load.

Any suggestions?

Cliffy

You need to reverse the two wires from the dissy pickup. Retime the dissy to suit. The vac advance is simply causing the rotor button to be in between two cylinders on the cap. Check the pictures I put on this thread to determine which way the wires go on.

[bee utey]

Would that be with the genuine BOSCH module ? ie, BOSCH printed all over it and made in Oz...

Or the $35 one on ebay.

The advert reads in part....


"Ford, Holden, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota

This module replaces Bosch numbers BIM024, 9 222 067 021

This is the very commonly used Bosch type module"



Does'nt EXACTLY say that it IS the 'genuine' Aussie-made BOSCH unit....

In the world of electronics, as I used to know it, a brand new part was regarded as unreliable till it had done over a thousand hours, after which it was regarded as immortal. Or, most active components fail early on in their life rather than later, the exceptions to this ROT are heat-related where adequate cooling is an issue. - eg, resin encapsulated ECU/Ign ignitors like the old Valiant Lean Burn computer mounted on the air filter. If a leaf or three got in and blocked the cooling air by-pass.......

Which is another way of saying that the wreckers Ign module is perfectly acceptable to use.

Bursons currently have the BIM024 at $53 trade. I bought one last week.

I am never tempted to buy aftermarket, who knows what will happen when Bosch stops selling them, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Great to get a "pre-tested" genuine one from the wreckers though...

[cliffordbharvey]

Guys,

Thank you.

TPS...was working beautfuly before i made the convert..unlikely to be this.
The idle was rough and timing out when I restarted after conversion.
Does it matter that I used 20amp wire linked to the existing loom?
The module and coil came directly from autob**n at
$59 coil
$54 module.
They had beetr be genuine...insert concern over new module failure

1. I will swap the terminals and retune. Hoping the difference is 10-15 degrees.
2. on a weekday I'll go by nice terminal ends. Only used the k-mart version (backyard BS)

Guys, I realy apreciate this.
Cliff

[cliffordbharvey]

Bee Utey wins the bottle of beer!
Plain logic is was...just could not see the way due to worry.

Runs perfectly again.
I will set it at the plain 6 degree top get direct comparison between the bosch coil settup and the original lucas jobby.

Guy, taking the kids for a bit of playing in the forest.
Thanks.
Cliff

[superquag]

AS you may have guessed, the evilBay ign module is'nt the genuine article, however the seller states:-

"They are new aftermarket sold 100's never a problem comes with the heat paste"

Personally, I'd go for genuine or s/h "Long term Pre-Tested..."

Finicky James in Gosnells

[Davehoos]

just reading as having issues with 93 3.5 disco stared with earth and battery problems.

the distributor has been replaced before i bought it with new unit-the coil looks new.i was going to swap the dist from my 89 hiline but noticed the module on the side of the dist.the issue if fuel related tends to look like afm but the hiline was parked because of untrustworthy flapper unit.but i add to this ignition system thread.

the early rover V8 distributor-we been using in P76 for years with valiant and bosch sigma modules.recently we use JB camira modules as they have good heat sink and mounting bracket .the air gap has to be reduced as its not as good as the bosch.

dont know what the BIM number is but i was told its the better for the system.my mate prefers them when suppling autronics.

I ve a history with GM/nissan and use the bluebird or the VH/VK coils.
the falcon coil seams to die quickly and ive not had issues with old GT40R[P76] but the resistamce is wrong.had plenty of cheep VL/skyline coil as long as they dont get hot.a friend had starting issues with a msd coil and found in the box after years warning only use spiral wound leads.

[bee utey]

just reading as having issues with 93 3.5 disco stared with earth and battery problems.

the distributor has been replaced before i bought it with new unit-the coil looks new.i was going to swap the dist from my 89 hiline but noticed the module on the side of the dist.the issue if fuel related tends to look like afm but the hiline was parked because of untrustworthy flapper unit.but i add to this ignition system thread.

the early rover V8 distributor-we been using in P76 for years with valiant and bosch sigma modules.recently we use JB camira modules as they have good heat sink and mounting bracket .the air gap has to be reduced as its not as good as the bosch.

dont know what the BIM number is but i was told its the better for the system.my mate prefers them when suppling autronics.

I ve a history with GM/nissan and use the bluebird or the VH/VK coils.
the falcon coil seams to die quickly and ive not had issues with old GT40R[P76] but the resistamce is wrong.had plenty of cheep VL/skyline coil as long as they dont get hot.a friend had starting issues with a msd coil and found in the box after years warning only use spiral wound leads.

There sure are plenty of parts you can mix and match, I like to use coils which were originally mounted away from the engine because lotsa heat tends to kill them. The Camira one is particularly my favourite as the engines in those rarely last long enough to kill a coil, as well as the neat heat sink. I haven't used the original Camira modules simply because I prefer the simple 4 wire system of the 024.

I've built plenty of P76 dissies mainly using Valiant V8 guts, although I once made a 8 cyl rotor using two Sigma 4 cyl ones carefully machined and nested together. Worked a treat.

[jtktread]

Like many others I did this conversion today. Very straight forward apart from when the dizzy went back in 1 tooth out - I don't know why but it took a lot of rooting around to get it in properly. Car runs very nicely and will put a few miles on it over the next few days to see how everything goes - money well spent if it doesn't stop in peak hour traffic again!!

This intermittent fault has dogged me since I bought the car about 9 years ago and it will be a big thumbs up to Bee Utey if this is the fix!!

John

[DerekatBooroobin]

Hi bee utey,

We own a 1988 Range Rover High Line with a 3.5l V8 engine with EFI. We converted to incorporate LPG and now run on dual fuel. We need to upgrade the Lucas electronic ignition. Can you supply or advise where to buy the parts needed to ensure the RR runs efficiently on LPG without backfiring? Our car was off the road for months when backfires ruined the airflow meter. No-one, including especially A Grade mechanics and LPG installers, could tell us what the problem was. In the end we replaced the gas converter, the airflow meter, and finally sourced an anti-backfire valve.

Regards, Derek
Booroobin Qld


Well, I finally remembered to get the camera out when I did another Bosch ignition amplifier conversion.

The vehicle here is a '75 RR 3.5 with a distributor from an '87 RR EFI.

The first picture shows the ignition module close up: terminal 3 is 4.8mm wide, it is connected to a new red wire from the distributor. Terminal 7 is connected to a new black wire from the distributor. Terminal 15 goes to the coil +ve. Terminal 16 goes to the coil -ve.

The next picture shows a HEI coil and heatsink set from an early Camira. It has a module that I haven't bothered investigating, so I replace it with the Bosch BIM024 module. To do that you remove the two plastic locator pins off the module, use plenty of the heatsink paste, and assemble.

The next picture shows the coil and module mounted, ignition positive to the coil positive, and I left the original negative connector for the (future) tacho. This is the connection the EFI engine uses to drive the computer.

The last picture shows the distributor with the new red and black wires connected to where the module usually goes. I made two male 3.2mm crimp terminals by cutting 6.3mm ones with sharp tin snips, I could have done it neater but with a healthy dob of silicone it will hold there just fine. When I do a later (3.9) distributor, the existing cable that goes to the original amplifier (blue and red wires?) can have two new female crimps fitted at the coil end, and applied to the new amplifier.

What happens if you get the polarity of the two wires reversed? Then the amplifier will trigger (roughly, from the falling pulse) and your ignition timing will be out by a large amount, if it runs at all. When connected the right way around, the timing should occur near where the magnetic pick-up meets the star rotor on the distributor shaft. The air gap here is critical, it should be adjusted to the smallest gap allowing free rotation, otherwise low speed operation might be somewhat erratic.

I have done about 30 of these conversions, none have come back to haunt me. The coil and module can be sourced from older car wreckers, I usually pay around $10 each. The module was fitted to large numbers of Australian production cars around the early 80's, before EFI became popular. So if you know where there is a VH commodore distributor or similar, the module lives under the tin cover on one side of the dissy.

Cheers and happy rovering.:)

[bee utey]

Hi bee utey,

We own a 1988 Range Rover High Line with a 3.5l V8 engine with EFI. We converted to incorporate LPG and now run on dual fuel. We need to upgrade the Lucas electronic ignition. Can you supply or advise where to buy the parts needed to ensure the RR runs efficiently on LPG without backfiring? Our car was off the road for months when backfires ruined the airflow meter. No-one, including especially A Grade mechanics and LPG installers, could tell us what the problem was. In the end we replaced the gas converter, the airflow meter, and finally sourced an anti-backfire valve.

Regards, Derek
Booroobin Qld

Hi Derek,
Any competent auto sparkie should be able to do the modification based on what is in this thread. I sometimes supply complete kits but have none spare until I get some time off work, probably early July, to get some more bits from the wreckers. PM me your phone number if you want a chat, just to make sure you have done all the other things gas needs to be successful.

[fclef]

Hello I own a 1987 Range Rover EFI auto. I had some firing problems. I've changed the distributor. It has run well for a short period then the problems (stalling, misfiring, stop on idle) have been re-occured. I replaced the module with another 3 pin type and mounted it on the left fender (the place where the ignition coil is installed) over an aluminium heat sink. The car does not run well and the coil is very hot. I cannot touch it after the car runs about 2-3 minutes. My mechanic cannot resolve the problem. Please help what should I do? I have a reconditioned ECU, a brand new alternator. Should I replace again the module, should I mount it on the distributor again. I don't know what to do, where to search the problem. Thank you.

[bee utey]

Hello I own a 1987 Range Rover EFI auto. I had some firing problems. I've changed the distributor. It has run well for a short period then the problems (stalling, misfiring, stop on idle) have been re-occured. I replaced the module with another 3 pin type and mounted it on the left fender (the place where the ignition coil is installed) over an aluminium heat sink. The car does not run well and the coil is very hot. I cannot touch it after the car runs about 2-3 minutes. My mechanic cannot resolve the problem. Please help what should I do? I have a reconditioned ECU, a brand new alternator. Should I replace again the module, should I mount it on the distributor again. I don't know what to do, where to search the problem. Thank you.

hello flclef

If your ignition coil is getting very hot it is carrying too much current. Is it a low resistance type, or original Lucas? I suggest you buy an ignition coil from an electronic ignition such as 1980's BMW or Mecedes or Japanese vehicle and try that instead. I have used my conversion on the 1987 RRC engine many times but it would be hard for you to get the same parts in Turkey.

I have written about the Chevy distributor module/amp being similar in function, perhaps you should try it instead:

GM HEI DISTRIBUTOR IGNITION CONTROL MODULE 4 PIN CHEVY | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GM-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-IGNITION-CONTROL-MODULE-4-PIN-CHEVY-/350473707948?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5199dc61ac)

It will need an ignition coil to match it, ask the seller perhaps.

[Bit of both]

Hi

Thanks for the usefull information. My V8 had the same problem - just cutting out. I have now just replaced the ignition module for a second time within the space of one year. Where can I find one of these Bosch 024 ignition modules? I live in South Africa, so I need a supplier that will be willing to ship to me.

Thanks

[bee utey]

Hi

Thanks for the usefull information. My V8 had the same problem - just cutting out. I have now just replaced the ignition module for a second time within the space of one year. Where can I find one of these Bosch 024 ignition modules? I live in South Africa, so I need a supplier that will be willing to ship to me.

Thanks

Have you tried a Bosch agent? I suspect SA got a few Australian cars in the 1980's with these modules fitted, there should be a few around. Otherwise try Bosch Aust website for contacts in SA, catalogue page here:

Bosch - Ignition Modules (http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/html/2256.htm)

Failing that try the chev module shown in my post below, another forumite involved with African D1's went through this recently:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-1/127709-97-disco-has-blown-6-ignition-modules-help.html

Send me a private message if you need further help.

[Bit of both]

Hi

I have tried to source the Bosch 024 module locally, but withou any success. Do anyone know where I can get one? The supplier must be willing to ship to me in South Africa.

Thanks

Rob

[bee utey]

Hi

I have tried to source the Bosch 024 module locally, but withou any success. Do anyone know where I can get one? The supplier must be willing to ship to me in South Africa.

Thanks

Rob

try these guys:

Performance Ignition Services - Contact (http://www.performanceignition.com.au/contact)

[Davehoos]

Bosch - Start Bosch.co.za (http://www.bosch.co.za/content/language1/html/index.htm)

hve you started here.

ive goit this stupid new windows and it wont let me search for you.

[simon_m]

I finally got around to installing the Bosch 024 kit that Bee Utey sent me yesterday, and now I can't get the bloody thing to start...

I didn't remove the dizzy - largely due to being unable after much swearing to adequately get to the distributor clamp nut to enable loosening - instead removing the existing amp in situ.

I removed the bolt with the tiny head on the drivers side, allowing some movement in the amp, then kind of pried it off with a screwdriver, revealing the two ports on the side of the dizzy. Bee Utey's kit includes a precut cable to run from the new amp to the dizzy, with the crimps at the dizzy end cut down to fit perfectly in those ports, plugged them in as per the photo in the first post in this tread (see my pic below).

At the coil end, after fixing the kit to the body in place of the last coil, used the existing wiring from the harness plugged the White (with Black stripe) cable onto the + of the coil, and the Green (with White stripe) to the - of the coil.

New (genuine) rotor button and dizzy cap (having cracked the last cap in a freak accident during this process - don't ask!) installed, fire up the engine and... no catching. Just chugs until it starts to labor.

Other stuff - in taking off the old coil, there is a black cable - drivers side - that is sandwiched between the body and the metal mounting frame of the coil. I put this back in place with the new unit, but it's not connected to anything. On the bolt on other side is a silver flex I assume is for proper grounding to the body, this went back too (you can just make it out below). I've obviously ignored, and currently left dangling, the blue and red cables in the loom that went from old coil to old amp on the dizzy.

So quick questions - before the misses gets home - what's going on? Have I done the wiring correctly? Do I need to adjust the air gap in the dizzy as discussed elsewhere (given it was running previously with that gap fine)?

Help would be super appreciated. The kit from Bee Utey is really well put together by the way, and the process, although a fiddly due to access to some bolts etc (thanks Land Rover) was pretty straightforward until the actual starting part...

Cheers! Simon

http://www.simon-maidment.com/car/amp_into_dizzy.jpg

http://www.simon-maidment.com/car/coil_and_amp_installed.jpg

[bee utey]

Some observations:

1. I avoid open crimp connectors like the plague. The one you have on the +ve side of the coil needs to be tight to the point of resisting pulling off by hand. Pop a small bit of hose over the exposed terminal to keep it clean.

2. Wrenching off the amp may have opened up the connectors on the dissy. The same thing with tight terminals applies here, make sure the new connectors go in with a little force. You can tighten the sockets through the blue rubber with small pliers.

3. Test the ignition output by setting the star rotor just before the pickup. With the cap off and the ignition on, bump the rotor button so the two points meet and pass. You should get a good spark at the coil out of it. If not, check all the terminals, the earth through the bolts for the coil and amp bracket, check there is a good voltage at the coil +ve. If the rotor-to-pickup gap is too high it will fire the Lucas amp but not the Bosch. They are slightly different.

4. You will probably have to advance the timing somewhat, the voltage generated by the pickup has to be slightly higher to fire the amp, which means retarded timing. With a smaller gap this is less noticeable but still necessary. I don't recall not being able to get to the dissy clamp nut, a decent 9/16 inch spanner should get it.

[simon_m]

Thanks for the quick reply Bee Utey.

Replaced the open crimp connectors with o-ring ones - no change to ignition but good to do. Other connections seemed pretty good, including nice and tight going into the blue thing with the cut down spade ends (once working I'll add some silicone over these).

Will open up the dizzy in the morning and check for sparks - haven't done the timing thing before so should be interesting...

The dizzy clamp had me pulling my hair out - could get a 9/16 spanner on but no room to turn it, got a ratchet one on, not enough space to turn for a click, socket could get on but not with a universal joint on the end, didn't want to buy a complete crows foot set so eventually, eventually, gave up! :mad:

[pibby]

hi Simon - re trying to loosen dizzy nut, on my disco the top of the radiator shroud unclips and comes off. makes it easier to swing a spanner in there. just a thought - you may have done this already.

[Davo]

I use a socket and a long extension with a ratchet handle for the dizzy clamp and it just does the job. Very strange design. I will probably put in a capscrew one day as getting an Allen key socket in there would be easier.

[bee utey]

hi Simon - re trying to loosen dizzy nut, on my disco the top of the radiator shroud unclips and comes off. makes it easier to swing a spanner in there. just a thought - you may have done this already.
That rings a bell, I remember poking the spanner's other end into the fan to get the nut to move. Tap the spanner with a hammer or lever it off something else.

[simon_m]

The fan belt also seemed to be perfectly aligned to prevent a spanner turning when between the fan blades - might be a different experience for w/o air con.

Will attempt it again this morning with the tips above, maybe cut a spanner down or something too.

Yes an allen key would have no issue, good call if I do get it off...

[superquag]

Is taking the fan belt off an option ?

Mine is the 'Serpentine' belt, easy(ier) to remove I think...
Fan a viscous hub? - turn the blades to find the bigger gap.... Spacing (should be) is uneven to modify fan-noise.

Darkly muttering threats to replace with 'japanese bolts' is counter-productive, but wearing a grey dust-coat over a shirt & tie does the trick for me!:p.

Allen heads might not work, due to the 60 degree rotational spacing/limited access, whereas the open-ender with its off-set angle gives more 'tiny bites'.

Or use a bigger hammer as suggested...

[simon_m]

Spent some of yesterday working through the list:

Checked the connections on all the wires in the amp, coil and into the distributor, all looking pretty clean and tight.

Opened up the distributor, checked visually everything looks how it should, and that it spins when trying to start the engine and hand cranking it.

Adjusted the air gap of the star rotor to 0.10mm (0.004in), tried to slip a 0.25mm (0.010in) gauge between after to double check that my adjusting had actually done something, and there was no way it was going in though it had initially.

I'm a bit of a novice with a multimeter, but with the ignition on, checked for voltage on the + and - points on the coil - both getting a shade under 12V. I used the bolts holding the coil to the body as earth, to ensure the coil was getting a proper earth. Also used another earth line - left over from previous coil install, to go from one of these bolts to the + point on the coil.

Also with ignition on, tried lining up the rotor button just next to the star rotor pickup, and flicking the rotor with the dizzy cap off, and also hand cranking forward and back across this point with the cap on. I couldn't hear anything in the coil, and with the high voltage cable off couldn't see any spark - is there a better way to check the coil during this to see if it's sparking?

Managed to loosen the distributor clamp nut - 9/16 dwarf spanner and a grey lab coat to the rescue. I rotated the dizzy to visually check it, and then statically adjusted the timing. I haven't done this before, but given I hadn't removed it (not really seeing the value in that for solving this issue) hopefully I haven't gone too far wrong. I hand cranked to TDC, rotor was at #1 position, positioned the dizzy body to line up my #1 mark on it, and hand tightened the clamp nut. Then cranked to 6deg BTDC and rotated the body very slightly so my #1 mark was - maybe 2mm - further counter-clockwise from the rotor centre and tightened the clamp bolt further, this was to advance the timing from factory as suggested.

Throughout it all, car turns over when I try to start it but doesn't fire (also checked for petrol and yes, petrol!). Battery starts to tire pretty quickly when trying it, so just charging it up presently. Any leads or tests to run would be much appreciated!

Cheers, Simon.

[bee utey]

Also used another earth line - left over from previous coil install, to go from one of these bolts to the + point on the coil.

Please explain?

Put the multimeter on resistance (ohms) and test the resistance of the pickup coil, ie put probes into the two connectors. Resistance should be in the hundreds. Rotating the rotor past the pickup should cause the resistance reading to go haywire.

[superquag]

Please explain?


Rotating the rotor past the pickup should cause the resistance reading to go haywire.

Yes, Please Explain !

The IGN amplifier has the job of making/breaking the coil to earth circuit, so if you've added an "earth" wire from NEG terminal to earth......-is the coil getting warm after leaving the IGN switch ON for several minutes ???

- Like the precise Technical Explanation !:p

[bee utey]

Yes, Please Explain !

- Like the precise Technical Explanation !:p

A digital multimeter will read static resistance. When you move the rotor past the pickup you generate small voltages which add to or reduce the resistance. The meter screen will show this in random resistance readings until you stop moving. Now if you just used a moving coil meter you would see the needle swing a bit, but the voltage pulse is too quick for a meaningful value. To do the measurement properly you need an oscilloscope but most people don't have one of those available. All you need to know is that the coil has resistance, and movement is producing an effect.

Satisfied now?:p

[superquag]

My mistake, cryptic comment not precise enough... :eek:

Just enjoyed use of the adjective, 'haywire'... - Picturesque and perfectly descriptive :D

Bit concerned over the extra earth wire.... This needs explaining... and if it goes from coil + to earth.... its shrting out the IGN feed to coil etc. !

I knew there was a use for digital meters ...

Very satisfied. ;)

[simon_m]

The positive point on the coil came - as part of the kit - with a cable running from it to its harness, which I thought was earth but now see it was connected to a ballast. It had been a long day... :confused:

I'm charging the battery now, then out to remove that earth and test coil resistance.

[simon_m]

Coil gives a reading of 0.8 resistance with the red pin on the coil + and the black on the - connector. It gives 5.4k when red it on + and black pin is in centre pole and in this setup when ignition is switched on flicking the rotor button across the pickup makes the reading go, well haywire!

Since I had the rotor lined up I tried testing the spark from the coil again, using a sparkplug connected it to the end of the high voltage cable and nothing.

Is my coil screwed?

[simon_m]

As I'm not going anywhere right now, also installed old coil, connected it to the new amp and a spark plug. Wasn't sure if it would work given the current setup (smaller air gap, timing advanced to about 8BTDC, new amp).

Gave it a try regardless, and no spark when flicking the rotor button, checked it was receiving 12VDC to each pickup too.

:(

[bee utey]

Coil gives a reading of 0.8 resistance with the red pin on the coil + and the black on the - connector. It gives 5.4k when red it on + and black pin is in centre pole and in this setup when ignition is switched on flicking the rotor button across the pickup makes the reading go, well haywire!

Since I had the rotor lined up I tried testing the spark from the coil again, using a sparkplug connected it to the end of the high voltage cable and nothing.

Is my coil screwed?

Ooh I hope your meter survived, if you were measuring the coil output and the amplifier was firing the coil you would have been trying to push 15,000 volts through it. I meant for you to test the pickup on the dissy! At least it shows the amplifier is firing the coil. Unless its insulation has broken down it should be working.


checked it was receiving 12VDC to each pickup too.
??


a ballast

Probably the suppression capacitor.

Now I tested the rig before I sent it, and I suggest you retest the coil by inserting a paper clip or similar into the coil output post and arranging a 5-10mm gap to the metal chassis or bracket. You may have a dud coil lead for some reason.

[simon_m]

Ok, just tried that with a large safety pin in the coil outlet and no spark.

[superquag]

Time to go back to basics...

Testing coils 101.

The theory is, supply the coil with 12v onto the (+) terminal,

Take a short wire and connect one end to the (-) terminal.

PUt a half-unbent paper clip into the coil HT (centre) post and bend the end over to within 5mm of the the bodywork. This is your spark-gap.

Take the short wire and touch it to earth.... every time you lift it OFF, you should get a spark.

If this works, then replace the paper clip with your HT lead (in case this is kaput as Bee suggested) and try again. This will tell you if your coil is OK, followed by "is the HT lead ok"

The above assumes you have the coil mounted as normal, in the car, which will supply you with an appropriate source of (12v) power....

If you're REALLY in doubt, try touching the HT lead....:twisted::twisted::twisted: - but I don't advise this when Little Children or Ladies are within earshot!

[milld]

Hi,

Just a quick question about coils; I have a Bosch MEC 717 running from the BIM 024.
Does anyone know a list of good replacements as mine has died and the spare oil one I have is heating up and leaking oil, the amp module is also getting very hot. I suspect the resistance between different coils matters greatly as they are both 12v.
The Bosch unit is around the $80

Cheers

[bee utey]

I would run a MEC 723 instead, another transformer coil but slightly higher resistance. I believe there is a coil list further down this thread.

[simon_m]

Ok this morning I've taken all the other wires off and tested the coil and it was intermitantly sparking from safety pin the the pole and with a sparkplug on the high volatge lead. Tested with multimeter and while it had looked ok previously, readings were a bit unstable.

Re-did the connectors on the pre-existing wires (White-Green and White-Black) and again tightened things up, all the connections at dizzy, amp and coil. Wired: positive on coil to existing white-green, capacitor suppressor, and amp to pin 15 wires; negative on coil to existing white-black and amp to pin 7 wires.

Car starts, finally! Sounds like crap, knocking coming from the plenum, but I'll try adjusting idle timing now to improve it.

Thanks to all, especially Bee Utey and superquag - really appreciate the help. I'll let you know how it runs once it sounds a bit better...

Cheers! Simon

[Leo]

Hi, did you manage to get things sorted?

[simon_m]

Hi Leo,

just got back yesterday from holiday, drove about 400ks with it running really well. I need to get the timing light out to check what the timing was eventually set at to get smooth power throughout the range and good pickup (started at 9BTDC by the gun and then adjusted slightly each drive til I hit a sweet spot).

I still need to get the diaphram on the Vac Advance fixed to improve the mileage (got 19l/100km - some freeway, some city, lots of hills, mostly fully packed car).

The adjustments to get the TPS and MAF within the ranges discussed on the board I felt made a big difference to power too - especially after I worked out the loose connection to the #1 fuel injector! The improvement seemed to be smoothness of power delivery as much as anything, though it was hard to tell as I couldn't get an A-B comparison due to the intermittent contact that injector was getting (fixed using some silicone to hold the plug in tighter).

My remaining issues are that I still have a very slight drop/dip in the idle every three or four seconds.

Also the exhaust smell seems to indicate it's running rich (which I had initially put down to rusty muffler which has since been replaced/upgraded) so I'll probably look at replacing the fuel injectors with yellowtops if I can find some within budget. Any suggestions of suppliers would be appreciated too as I haven't found any at the prices others seemed to have done!

[cliffordbharvey]

Thanks to all for assistance.
I have completed to 30,000km since the coil change.
Typical improvement in LPG use is in the order of 11%-15%.

However, now I am thinking the next step is to do the oxygen sensor.
While criusing the hwy the car seems to jump while coasting. Every time I service the car or fiddle with the timing the economy moves from about 4.4km/L through to 5.2km/L, then drops back.

Any hints guys?

Cliffy

[bee utey]

Jumpy running on coast could be either 1. too much advance, especially with vacuum connected, or 2. gas running lean due to either incorrect off-idle settings or air pressure due to forward vehicle movement overwhelming the gas system vacuum signal from the mixer. Do you have a snorkel fitted?

Remind me again of your system type, it's been a while.

[cliffordbharvey]

Bee utey
I am running a Romano vapour injection.
no snorkel.
Vacuum advance is connected and timing set about 5-6 degrees.
For some time the actual timing has been a concern. Occaisionaly when heading up an incline above 2,000rpm the engine will miss a beat.
After much thought I was heading toward a rich mixture problem. However, I have noted on petrol the RPM gauge will occaisionaly jump about 500rpm during coasting.

Also at gas idle I have one cyclinder continualy puffing at the exhaust. On petrol there is no problem. In the past I have removed and cleaned all the gas injectors...not that problem.
every time I redo the timing the puffing stops for a week and then returns.

Going for mixture, I looking for Mapping software for the Romano and following that with the landy fuel mapping and back again.
then thought to cheat by adding an oxygen sensor to the system and hope for auto tuning. However, remain confused as this only controls over fueling when ballanced against the existing Map. Therefore, mapping comes to mind again.
Cliff

[bee utey]

Is your tacho (=rpm gauge) the stock LR item or an aftermarket? Stock runs off the alternator. Make sure the pickup-to-Bosch-amp wires are away from both the alternator and the ignition leads. I tie the wires to the top radiator hose, seems to work best. Interference will cause random signals which can also affect the gas injection as it has a RPM input from the coil.

One cylinder misfiring indicates a weak cylinder, as LPG requires higher voltage than petrol to fire. If you can identify which cylinder is misfiring (disconnect one gas injector at a time), perhaps change that plug. Gap should be 0.7-0.8mm for gas plugs. Also try swapping gas injector plugs around, see if the misfire follows the wiring or the cylinder.

[cliffordbharvey]

The Tacho is stock.. The whole car is except for the bisch upgrade and the Romano system.

I'll do the wire check.
I raise another issue in regards to alternator.
Tested the unit the other day and was charging at 13.8v. I undertsand they typicaly charge at 13.4v??
As a result the dashboard lights and headlights canbe seem rythnmicly going bright and dull.
Is this likely to play merry with the ECU and so on/

Clify

[bee utey]

Alternators charge voltage varies with temperature, typically 13.5 (hot) to 14.5V (cold), although pulsating lights would indicate a faulty regulator. This may affect the injection, I don't think they like too much variation.

[cliffordbharvey]

I am out in the night moving the pick up wires.
Voltrage fidldling with injection may be a contributor with injection therefore mixture at idle.

I'll kepp all in the loopp over thenext week or so.

Thanks Bee Utey.

Cliff

[crossedup]

Jumpy running on coast could be either 1. too much advance, especially with vacuum connected, or 2. gas running lean due to either incorrect off-idle settings or air pressure due to forward vehicle movement overwhelming the gas system vacuum signal from the mixer. Do you have a snorkel fitted?

Remind me again of your system type, it's been a while.

This pricked my ears up! Mine does this, driving through town slow(second gear about 20/30 kms) it surges and lurches about. I DO have a snorkle, The revs dont settle down to an idle for about 10 seconds after I stop. My timimig is 10 degress at idle checked yesterday, I assume with vacuum connected because I did not touch it. I changed my plugs to what you sugested(the ngk ones) and I'm doing your ignition module/coil swap this week as well.Any thaughts on my tune/idle? So thanks n keep it coming! I'm keen to get it sorted!
Also I am doing your gas processor/02 sensor upgade once this other stuff is sorted!

[bee utey]

This pricked my ears up! Mine does this, driving through town slow(second gear about 20/30 kms) it surges and lurches about. I DO have a snorkle, The revs dont settle down to an idle for about 10 seconds after I stop. My timimig is 10 degress at idle checked yesterday, I assume with vacuum connected because I did not touch it. I changed my plugs to what you sugested(the ngk ones) and I'm doing your ignition module/coil swap this week as well.Any thaughts on my tune/idle? So thanks n keep it coming! I'm keen to get it sorted!
Also I am doing your gas processor/02 sensor upgade once this other stuff is sorted!


your system type...

Need to know what your lpg system parts are...

When you check ignition timing you should rev up the engine and observe the timing pointer. At idle both vacuum and mechanical advance are at minimum. Disconnect the vacuum, bring the revs up, observe the mechanical advance. Then reconnect the vacuum, see how much extra advance you get. If none, suck on the vacuum hose to the capsule on the dissy, do you get a continuous flow (and a bad taste)? There may also be crud blocking the vac port on the manifold, at revs your finger should feel suction. If not, unblock it with a pin or tiny drill bit.

[crossedup]

Ok! Thanks did none of that, But now I will. My gas info:wasntme:,oops wrong gas! Any way My system is impco converter type L,Impco mixer 200. Hope this helps

[crossedup]

Checked my timing this arvo,10 deg at idle about 16 deg mechanical. But my vacuum lines were not hooked up at all! Put a hose on and sucked on it at about 2000rpm and there was no change. The person I bought the car off said it had a haltec computer,but I cannot confirm this as I cannot find it(where should it be?) So more questions. PLS who has some answers

[bee utey]

If you have mechanical advance but no vacuum, then I doubt that a haltech ECU is controlling the ignition. I think the ECU hides behind one of the kick panels, I've never looked for one in a D1.
New vac capsules are available from advanced Diaphragm Options

Advance Diaphragm Options (http://www.advancediaphragmoptions.com/)

[crossedup]

Heads up to all looking at buying parts, Repco and NRMA road side servce members have a sale on all month. 20% off, just bought a bosch BIM024 for $48 nice!

[crossedup]

Hi, I started doing the swap but I have come across a problem, being lpg the red and blue wires have been re routed in board in a bundle with a black and yellow wire. Black is an earth, the yellow appears to control the gas solenoid.The first pic shows the red/blue wires joining the new bundle.Second and third pic shows the wire that was on the positive coil,the earth wire with the black plug would go to the coil negative.Last pic is the earth that was on the coil.Would I be right in connecting the old coil positive to the no 3 terminal and the old earth wire to the no7 terminal? Hope this is not a stupid question but im a little bit lost. I have already finished the dizzy and was going to cut my new red/black wires to the red/blue wires just near where the new 4 wire bundle started.
Thanks

48752

48753

48758

48759

[bee utey]

You shouldn't mark the wires going to the coil negative with "E" for earth, they aren't earth at all. Earth is vehicle body metal or battery negative.

What I can see is that someone has replaced the OEM Lucas amp already, the new amp is obviously sourced with loom off another vehicle. It is the thing at the bottom of your 3rd pic. If you snip off the red and blue wires after the heat shrinks you can terminate them to the BIM024 module directly as per my pics before. Terminal 3 for blue, terminal 7 for red, terminal 15 to coil +ve, terminal 16 to coil -ve, mounting pad/screw hole is earth. You don't need new wiring from the dissy to the amp, what you have already is all you need.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/21861d1264061649-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-bosch-024.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

See how it is done here: no extra wiring needed at all.

Remove the wiring associated with the amp you have there already, remember to reconnect the negative side of the coil to the gas wiring loom for the safety cut-out to operate the gas solenoids. The black wire from the amp loom will be the coil (-) switching wire, analogous to the terminal 16 of the 024 module.

The white/black stripe wire with the male terminal you have marked "E" is the OEM wire to the ECU and must be connected to the negative side of the coil. It is the ECU input for engine rotation, without it there will be no petrol injection. The plain white wire with an OEM connector should be the positive feed for the coil. The red and grey wires (with your (+) tag) look like some sort of hidden kill switch or anti-theft wiring, undo it until you are absolutely clear where they go.

[Homestar]

Hi Bee Utey, I will be doing this mod shortly in conjunction with the engine upgrade I'm doing and I just want to know what sort of heat sink I could get away with. I notice on the second pic from your last post, it looks like the amp is mounted to a chunk of mild steel - is this sufficient? Being the tight arse that I am, I don't want to run out and buy a proper heat sink if I don't have to - I have heaps of crap in the garage, and I would prefer to use what I already have.

Cheers - Gav

[bee utey]

The heatsink I use is off a scrapped vehicle with a similar ignition amp. Some I get off early camiras, some off nissan pulsars, mostly they come with suitable mounting screws at the correct spacing already. I suggest you make a heatsink out of similar material, letting an electronic module overheat is silly.

Camira heatsink and coil:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/21862d1264061663-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-ciol-bracket.jpg

Make sure you use the heatsink paste supplied, and also ensure the module is securely earthed by its mounting screws. Don't put the paste around the screw holes. And if you use cheap and bodgy crimp terminals/crimpers you won't get reliability either. Use fully insulated crimps or cover them with heat shrink.

[superquag]

x 2

You need several square inches of nice thick aluminium bolted firmly to the front panel as in the pic.

A heatsink can never be tooo big.

[curious4h20]

hi guys

just a little confused.
bought a bim024 and a MEC717
do i put the condenser back on with these?,:confused:
did someone leave the condenser off?
as your cylinder coils in pics on this thread still have them on,

pls explain, &thanx

[bee utey]

hi guys

just a little confused.
bought a bim024 and a MEC717
do i put the condenser back on with these?,:confused:
did someone leave the condenser off?
as your cylinder coils in pics on this thread still have them on,

pls explain, &thanx

The condenser fitted to the +ve coil connection is a radio interference suppressor, so should go back on, it does no harm to the ignition.

[curious4h20]

hi bee utey and LR lovers



after reading on here about your conversion to Bosch from Lucas, and feeling what i thought was the occasional miss, i took the plunge and planned a conversion.
When looking over the disco, looking at the future job, i notice that my earth strap to the ignition heat sink was floating(not attached) on the chassis.
I then went and bought a MEC717 (made in china) and BIM024 (made in japan from repco. so I had the real Bosch)
i pulled the lucas bits out so i could measure up the heatsink for attachment holes, heatsink is a 10mm aluminum thick plate which use to be a bracket. i put the Lucas system back together this time with the earth strap bolted on.
drove to town and back, it felt a little better, and smoother, well i thought.
I drew the existing wiring system for future reference, and noticed that the lucas coil was back to front. ie 12v and condenser on the negative terminal
i then did the conversion to the Bosch coil and BIM024 and earth strap
I followed the existing wiring and no-go,
I put the 12v wire and condenser to the +ve as bee utey stated and away we go.
i then travelled to hospital and back with the top hose on the radiator splitting on my Road,lucky me, with the engine getting a bit hot lol
Next morning after shortening the hose, i tried to get the car started. no spark, sometimes it would turn, other times totally dead.
stuffed around for a day, doing a battery charge and going thru RAVE and online here. tried everything.
was even considering i had cooked something, looked up stuff on security alarm thingy too.
all results indicated i had stuffed my BIM024 after 26 km

My wife said take off the earth-strap, which i did, away we go again, motor running. hopefully for a long time. went down block and back, seems best yet, but time will tell. now the timing.

So what I'm asking is, Is the earth strap a common problem, or is this a symptom of another problem?:confused:

[bee utey]

The earth strap IMO is for the shielding of the pickup wires, it shouldn't make a lot of difference unless the pickup wires are too close to the alternator or ignition leads. As for no-go, check that the air gap in the pick-up is around 0.005" as the BIM024 needs a slightly better signal to fire than the Lucas one. Also all your crimp terminals should require a bit of force to pull off, wriggle them on after squashing slightly with pliers. Hopefully your heatsink and module are securely earthed by being bolted cleanly to a metal body part, otherwise run a copper wire to a suitable bolt head either on the block or battery. Heat sink paste shouldn't be around the screw earthing the pad on the module.

[curious4h20]

yep all lugs bend the terminals on the bim024, if i try and remove them. thats how the tiny hole in the heat shrink got there trying to put them on

also has no resistance between earth lug from dizzy and body of car. the screws go through the aluminum block, then the car body and then nutted off. i didnt trust my thread i cut into the aluminum, i tapped it with a broken hand, so i could have done better,:(
so to make sure the BIM024 didn't leave the heat sink i nutted it on the side of the light section(drilled some holes), plus the original bolts that connected the original lucas coil and module for other earthing of aluminum block,

I can live with the earth strap being there for a shielding for the wires. so lets hope it starts again tomorrow,& forever lol

thanks for your advice and tutorial:D

[sparky34]

The Disco developed a slight miss on the road about a month ago, took it up the beach and got it hot and the miss became " jeez are we going to get home".
A quick read here and i diagnosed a case of LUCAS DISEASE.
Bought a new BIM 024 & MEC 717 coil ($120.00) and did the transplant last weekend. What a difference, miss gone and definitely more power.
Thanks bee utey for the great "How To", your the go to man, the Dali Lama of D1 electrics in my eyes.
Sparky

:twobeers:

[Grimace]

Hi Bee Utey and others,

Have been fault finding a poor running 4.6 that I recently put into my range rover. Only runs 95 and 98 octane (no gas system)
I have spent about 4 hours all up now adjusting the fuelling (Haltech interceptor) and am now looking at the ignition.

I have already tried two sets of good magnecor KV85 leads, and change spark plugs what seems like 287 times (NGK BP6ES I think).
Swapped out cap and rotors.

Next on my list was to fit the A & R power amp I have along with a new coil (standard DLB198).
Then following that have the dissy re-graphed and overhauled (or replaced).

So I already have the coil and power amp and I want to install them but I noticed that Ward at Graeme Cooper automotive has used a different module when they remote mounted my existing unit.
My car is fitted with a Mitsubishi branded module, labeled J121, it only has three pin outs. One goes to -Ve & to ground (I think) the other two are the feed from the dissy (red and black).... that is all.

Car has run fine with the old engine (that I was aware of) and only now seems to be running a bit ordinary with the 4.6.

What confused me is the lack of +12v connection to the module and duplicate ground -ve connection.

The coil has an iginition feed to the +ve, it also has a couple of other connectors that I am going to assume are not required (parts of the existing old loom).

The module is as shown below;
http://imgc.classistatic.com/cps/kjc/111231/413r1/64323gn_20.jpeg

Before I go hacking into the system, I want to assure myself that I can just install my module as per the standard instruction sets and only require the ignition feed and Neg out put to ECU pin 39?
All in an effort to do away with all the other no longer associated wiring.

Am awaiting a call back from Ward and will update this thread with my results.
In failing all this I will go down the BIM024 and replacement coil path!

Cheers
Grimace

[bee utey]

I'd say the J121 is essentially a switching transistor and should not need a separate 12V supply. Any power it needs could be generated during the transistor off period via the neg coil wire.

Google Image Result for http://www.top-autopart.com/admin/bookpic/2008/200811190666.jpg (http://www.google.com.au/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=lvT&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&biw=1182&bih=879&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=AOrbpNY165bn7M:&imgrefurl=http://www.top-autopart.com/en/prox.asp%3Fid%3D3438&docid=0bdvRfRPRdcOaM&imgurl=http://www.top-autopart.com/admin/bookpic/2008/200811190666.jpg&w=500&h=500&ei=YgCjUOrRDcyOrger9IAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=920&vpy=217&dur=2&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=114&ty=80&sig=100933991875162189073&page=1&tbnh=147&tbnw=176&start=0&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:15,s:0,i:114)

The BIM024 is a signal amplifier and and needs 12V to process the reluctor output (2 wires) which is very small on the grand scheme of things.

[Grimace]

Thanks Bee Utey,

Just got off the phone with Ward and he confirmed that they change it over for use on the Haltech Interceptor. As the Haltech utilises the magnetic inputs from the dissy top act as a crank angle sensor and then feeds a digital signal to the new module.
I am also now aware that the Mitsubishi J121 module is the same as a Bosch BIM034.

So I guess the A&R power amp I have currently along with the BIM024 are not an available option for me as they utilise a magnetic waveform input from the dissy?

I got all confused as we started discussing AFRs and now I have even more work ahead of me :)

[horizon50]

I just changed my disco to the bosch system ....... works fantastic :D

[Kevin B]

im thinking of doing this Conversion, i want to use an Oil filled Coil, it was mentioned one off a Camira would be ok, would it be possible to get a part number of a suitable oil filled one Please, also would this suffice

Holden Camira JB JD 4 CYL 1 6L Ignition Coil Standard | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Holden-Camira-JB-JD-4-Cyl-1-6L-Ignition-Coil-Standard/230901227088?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3 D1%26asc%3D27%26meid%3D8473775963295052893%26pid%3 D100033%26prg%3D1011%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D230901227088% 26#ht_2497wt_1157)


Thanks and Great tip too...

[bee utey]

im thinking of doing this Conversion, i want to use an Oil filled Coil, it was mentioned one off a Camira would be ok, would it be possible to get a part number of a suitable oil filled one Please, also would this suffice

Holden Camira JB JD 4 CYL 1 6L Ignition Coil Standard | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Holden-Camira-JB-JD-4-Cyl-1-6L-Ignition-Coil-Standard/230901227088?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3 D1%26asc%3D27%26meid%3D8473775963295052893%26pid%3 D100033%26prg%3D1011%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D230901227088% 26#ht_2497wt_1157)


Thanks and Great tip too...

I haven't bought a no-name-brand coil for this conversion so can't comment on its suitability or reliability. I've used OEM (used) Camira coils, OEM LR Bosch coils (used) and various others. The new Bosch oil filled coil I've seen used is the BIC290.

[Davo]

Something like PRC6574 here? Plugs, HT Leads and Coils Page 2 (http://www.dingocroft.co.uk/acatalog/Plugs-p2.html)

I can't work out the difference between that and the one above it.

[bee utey]

Something like PRC6574 here? Plugs, HT Leads and Coils Page 2 (http://www.dingocroft.co.uk/acatalog/Plugs-p2.html)

I can't work out the difference between that and the one above it.

The Lucas one is probably the one used in the 80's on SD1s and carby RRCs, the Bosch one suits the later systems like yours.

[Davo]

I've got carbies and added this sort of thing, (that's someone else's photo):

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=61973&stc=1&d=1371644607

And a new Lucas coil. (Or it might be Intermotor - probably the same thing.)

This system uses these types of amps: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-d2000/overview/ which are very common and easy to get from somewhere like Summit.

What have you found works best for caps and rotors these days? There seems to be a bit of dodgey stuff around.

[bee utey]

What have you found works best for caps and rotors these days? There seems to be a bit of dodgey stuff around.

Genuine cap if possible:

Land Rover Discovery S1 V8 Genuine Lucas V8 Dizzy CAP | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Land-Rover-Discovery-S1-V8-Genuine-Lucas-V8-Dizzy-Cap-/251292301629?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a8230393d)

Bosch GB864 Falcon XF rotor works well and is more readily available at short notice from Bursons.

[Davo]

Thanks. (Again!) I forgot all about CLR, and I wasn't sure if Lucas was still Lucas or not anyway.

Here's the copy from Dingocroft's rotor arm description:


Rotor Arm Lucas V8 Ref: STC1857
Application: Electronic ignition versions of Lucas V8 Distributor.
Description: Portugues made rotor arm supposedly on original Lucas tooling. (Original Lucas item is no longer available and these are no longer in production).
Approximate dimensions: length 70.5mm (2.8"), height 24.2mm (0.95"), spindle diameter 14.6mm (0.57").

They're an honest bunch so I tend to take their word for it.

[Buzzliteyeh]

Thanks ,ill install the new coil and if still no go ill do this conversion , I'll prolly do it any way :p

[RR88]

thank you for your notes on the ignition wiring and pictures

[bee utey]

I'll put this here for future reference to stop me having to repeat myself.

1. Is 12V appearing at the #15 terminal of the module with the ignition on? This should be wired to the (+) terminal on the coil (#15 on the OEM coil). Also make sure ALL ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS ARE CLEAN AND TIGHT!!!!!

2. Is the module #16 terminal wired to the #1 or (-) terminal of the coil? The voltage here should be the same as the positive unless there is a short circuit to ground on the negative side. This voltage can only drop when the coil is actually being fired and needs more than a volt meter to see the drop happening. A logic tester or an oscilloscope will see the pulse. A vehicle with an electronic LPG safety cut-out will also be able to see a pulse by switching on the gas solenoids. You can even just wire one up and look at the function LED on it. It will come on for around 1 second on switch on, and stay illuminated while coil pulsing is occuring.

3. Is the module securely earthed to the chassis/body? Use a multimeter to check for a low resistance if needed.

4. Is the pickup wired to the module terminals #3 and #7 as per the pics in the posts at the beginning of the thread? The direction of connection is very important.

5. Is the resistance of the pickup stable as you wriggle the wiring? Is this resistance exactly the same when measured across module terminals #3 and #7 and the wiring connected?

6. Turn the engine manually so the pickup is near one of the teeth of the star rotor inside of the dissy. Manually move the star wheel past the pickup by wriggling the rotor button. With the ignition off check the resistance across module terminals #3 and #7 while you are moving the star rotor point across the pickup. You should see the resistance swing around as small voltages are created by the pickup coil as the rotor moves. Stop and it should settle back to the stationary reading.

7. Take the coil lead out of the coil, bend up a piece of plain wire to go in the coil HT post and arrange a 6mm gap to a metal chassis/ body part. Turn on the ignition and wriggle the rotor as before and observe the strength or otherwise of the spark.

8. Now make sure the dissy cap can't foul the moving rotor and leave the test gap from the coil. Crank the starter and observe the spark. Still strong?

9. Now fit the coil lead to the coil and arrange a gap between the coil lead dissy end and a metal earth point. The spark should be a bit weaker but still present, due to the nature of the lead's internal construction.

10. Now using a pair of plastic pliers hold the coil lead near the rotor button metal strip and compare the spark you get with that from arcing to the dissy case. There should be only a tiny spark visible to the rotor but much much weaker than to the metal case. If the spark is equally strong your rotor button is burnt out and needs replacing.

11. Now refit everything and take off only one plug lead. Fit an old plug to the lead and clamp an earth lead (e.g. jumper lead) to the plug body. Observe the spark in the plug gap.

12. Now make sure that the vehicle ECU is still getting its pulse by checking the white/black stripe wire is fitted to the negative post of the coil. Without this wire you may have spark but will never have injection. Your fuel pump is your test function here: does it run when you first turn on the key to ignition? When you crank the engine a successful reading of the ignition will start the pump and you will hear it run on for around 1 second after you stop cranking. If your environment is too loud use a test light at the fuel pump wiring. Anywhere you find the fat white/purple wire in the loom to the fuel pump will do.

13. If all that fails see a LR doctor.:p

[Davo]

Just an addition to the thread since I learned so much from it. I did this conversion yesterday, not because I had any particular problems, but because when I was troubleshooting a non-starting new engine a while ago I replaced the existing amp, and just getting it out from underneath that box involved something like three different-sized sockets and quite a lot of time. Also, the new amp made the aftermarket tacho jump around. And I never did like the coil sitting on its side like that.

So I made some new brackets, steel for the coil and ally for the amp. Because I've changed the PAS reservoir there was just enough room for the coil. I might add a braided earth lead from the amp ground, (the RH mounting bolt on the amp), for later on, when corrosion starts giving trouble. I might also change the amp mounting bracket because it gets pretty hot after not very long.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=79414&stc=1&d=1403495202

Troubleshooting or just plain replacing this should be very easy.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=79415&stc=1&d=1403495629

Here's the wiring diagram I found somewhere online and used:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=79416&stc=1&d=1403495755

And what all this is inside the box next to the old amp, I have no idea. Certainly, it didn't suppress anything when I used the HF radio:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=79417&stc=1&d=1403496316

Timing hasn't changed, power seems about the same, but the tacho is behaving and now I've got a new genuine Bosch part instead of some Dodgey Brothers special.

Thanks, Bee Utey! :)

[Kevin B]

Question,


What should the voltage be at Terminal 7 and 3 to the coil, I am getting 1.2v is that correct ?

[bee utey]

Question,


What should the voltage be at Terminal 7 and 3 to the coil, I am getting 1.2v is that correct ?
I've never measured a voltage that way as its entirely irrelevant to the operation of the distributor. The voltage pulses from a rotating pickup (too fast for a regular multi meter to read accurately) are measured between 3 and 7. With the distributor stationary you can only use a multi meter to measure the resistance of the pickup coil connected between 3 and 7.

[Kevin B]

Ok well when I get home Bee ill post a full history, but yes the resistance at 3and 7 are stsble at both ends I now have no spark from coils but it was working this morning

[Kevin B]

ok ill start by saying I bought this 1994 D1 from a fellow forum member who was having problems getting it going, threads here


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-1/207644-once-more-into-breach.html


and


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-1/199362-3-9-v8-disco-guru-needed-freshwater-2096-a.html


and


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-1/190885-puff-chug-dead.html


during the course of the repairs in the above threads this Lucas ignition amplifier mod was done, after getting her here I needed to replace the starter motor and top radiator hose, that done I managed to resolve the problem, got the vehicle running very well, went for a spin up and down the road no issues, had it running for quite some time turning off and on again with no problems, then while it was idling in drive it kinda revved up then down and stalled, ok restarted no issue, then 10 mins later same again and again, so I went off to do some reading thinking that it could be a faulty coolant temp sensor.


armed with the ohm figures I needed I went to check them and they were fine, once again went to start the car, this time nothing no firing at all, pulled the coil lead off the dizzy and no spark, checked power to the coil, that was fine, checked power to the BIM, that was fine, checked resistance between 3 & 7 on the BIM and at the coil, that was strong and stable too, simply by having the vehicle running I have concluded that the mod was done correctly.


I have noted in this thread though that the coil used are mostly Bosch, the one that is on there is the Lucas DLB?? something or other, which I was assured was new, I have tested the resistance across + & - against spec I found on the net and it was fine, however when I test between either + or - and the centre I find the resistance much higher than the spec I found on the net,


Question,


Could this mod have killed the LUCAS coil after a short period of time?
Could the Lucas coil have killed the BIM?


Tomorrow I will,


Replace the HT lead and see if that is the problem also I have a second Lucas coil which tested to spec with the meter, I will try that as well.


one other question, does the ECU have and influence on the spark at all, when I first plugged the 14CUX reader into it just after it had arrived, when it got the tune screen it said


"TUNE - LIMP NO CATS"


when I had gotten the vehicle running again and turned it off and plugged the reader in same screen said


TUNE - RED NO CATS


I know this means the resistor colour,


Once again it says TUNE - LIMP NO CATS


I am a bit reluctant to blame the ECU at this stage as it has been running fine and the only problem it has now is no spark from the coil..


Ideas????

[bee utey]

There is no input to the ignition from the 14cux, it's the other way round, the 14cux gets a signal from the coil negative connection.

Once you have double and triple checked the connections for cleanliness and tightness try another coil, then another module. Is the module securely mounted on an adequate heat sink? When either the coil or the module heat up they can have intermittent faults. In the case of the coil it will be internal insulation failure not connection failure, ie you won't be able to measure it with a multi meter.

[Kevin B]

So Bee should I get a bosch coil or would the lucas be ok providing that is the actual problem.

[bee utey]

I have no faith in a Lucas branded coil but hey, some of them work for some of the time. I'd rather fit a 20 year old OEM second hand known working Bosch coil off a later D1 than a new Lucas labelled (probably made in China) coil any time.

[Kevin B]

Then I will buy a Bosch unit, I post results once I have triple checked and replaced thanks again

[Kevin B]

ok replaced the coil, and HT lead, checked all connections, fired up still no spark from the coil lead, would a faulty BIM cause no spark, if so how can it be tested, can it?? or is it one of those things that cant be, would like to test it first before I buy another one, also what else would cause no spark if all these are good, is there a fuse?? of would faulty ECU cause no spark?

[Homestar]

ECU has no control over spark on the 14cux system, but as mentioned needs a signal wire from the coil to it. Is that back on? It won't run without it.

[Kevin B]

yes that is back on white/black wire on - side of coil, fuel pump relay runs periodically when ignition turned on, im lost as to why no spark all of a sudden when I had it was running then nothing, I could understand if there never was a spark but it all of a sudden disappeared,

[Kevin B]

ok well i have ordered a New Bosch MEC717 and a BIM024, lets see if that fixes the No spark issue, if it does not then i'm not sure were to go from there, what else in the ignition system is responsible for spark from the coil?

lets leave out the distributor for the moment as there is no spark to it yet anyway.

Thanks

[bee utey]

You can't "leave out the distributor" as it contains the magnetic pickup. Connect your meter to the two wires that are normally connected to 3 and 7. Read the resistance. THEN you must move the distributor shaft in a way that the teeth of the central rotor pass the pickup. You can do this by hand if you turn the engine to a suitable spot first. OBSERVE the reading on the meter, it should be fluctuating wildly as you generate small pickup voltages. When you stop moving the resistance reading should return to the stable value. Once this input is confirmed you move onto a replacement module.

[Kevin B]

ok so if the Magnetic pickup is faulty then this would cause no spark from the Coil to the Dizzy is that correct ?

[Kevin B]

bee utey,

i have been scouring posts on here and came across this response in this thread

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/149581-gas-petrol-disco-cuts-out-petrol.html


The distributor contains a magnetic pickup that creates a small voltage every time the teeth of the rotor thingy pass it. That voltage is transferred to the ignition amplifier via the red and blue wires. The amplifier then switches the coil negative side, just like points used to. You can test the pickup with a multimeter on resistance, unplug the pickup from the amp, under 500 ohms and not affected by wriggling any connection.

reading that i presume that if the Magnetic pickup if cactus or otherwise faulty it would not send the signal back to the module and in turn not not switch the - side of the coil, end result would be no spark from the coil to the Dizzy.

have i read this correctly ??

Kevin

[bee utey]

have i read this correctly ??

Kevin
well yes, that's how a simple electronic ignition module works, there's no computers involved.

[Kevin B]

Then I believe that is my problem, l seem to remember the previous owner saying something about a cracked module that slipped my mind till i read your posts about it, I have a brsnd new one I will fit tonight

[Kevin B]

ok replaced the whole guts of the distributor and tested it, still no spark, while doing it i noticed (never noticed this before) that when the BIM module was fitted it was mounted on a thin SS plate, not aluminum, with a heat sink and there appears to be no thermal paste either, is it possible that during the hour or so i had it running that heat has killed this module?, would it happen that fast i dont know how hot they actually get, im fast running out of ideas... :mad:

[Mercguy]

ok replaced the whole guts of the distributor and tested it, still no spark, while doing it i noticed (never noticed this before) that when the BIM module was fitted it was mounted on a thin SS plate, not aluminum, with a heat sink and there appears to be no thermal paste either, is it possible that during the hour or so i had it running that heat has killed this module?, would it happen that fast i dont know how hot they actually get, im fast running out of ideas... :mad:

There really are only a couple of things that fail in the Dizzy that cause no spark.

1. module (ignition amplifier) failure
2. reluctor coil goes open circuit (very rare, but does occasionally happen)
2a. reluctor coil shorts internally (rare, as above, but resistance value will be out markedly)

test the outputs from the distributor make sure the resistance is within spec.
Follow this:http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/Downloads/Rover_PDFs/PickupTest01.pdf
credit: Ramon Alban

if that is OK, then 'assume' the reluctor coil is fine, then check your wiring to the module is correct polarity. If the polarity is reversed, it can be a problem for the module (fried silicone) but it theoretically should withstand an accidental reversal.

if that is all OK, then check your wiring to the ballast resistor, the coil itself is OK and also check the distributor is correctly installed @ #1cyl TDC inlet and not 180? out.... it happens. Adjust the static timing as req'd - between 6-10?BTDC to get it to turn over, then adjust to correct spec with a timing light once running.

Follow Bee-utey's threads - they are pretty much spot-on. It's not something to fear or get frustrated with. just check each step, and it will either highlight a faulty component, or a fault in the existing procedure, which is easily corrected.

[Kevin B]

Thanks Mercguy, i managed to fix it, it was a Dodgy BIM Module (cheap Chinese one) that had been fitted to it, once i replaced that it ran like a dream.



There really are only a couple of things that fail in the Dizzy that cause no spark.

1. module (ignition amplifier) failure
2. reluctor coil goes open circuit (very rare, but does occasionally happen)
2a. reluctor coil shorts internally (rare, as above, but resistance value will be out markedly)

test the outputs from the distributor make sure the resistance is within spec.
Follow this:http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/Downloads/Rover_PDFs/PickupTest01.pdf
credit: Ramon Alban

if that is OK, then 'assume' the reluctor coil is fine, then check your wiring to the module is correct polarity. If the polarity is reversed, it can be a problem for the module (fried silicone) but it theoretically should withstand an accidental reversal.

if that is all OK, then check your wiring to the ballast resistor, the coil itself is OK and also check the distributor is correctly installed @ #1cyl TDC inlet and not 180? out.... it happens. Adjust the static timing as req'd - between 6-10?BTDC to get it to turn over, then adjust to correct spec with a timing light once running.

Follow Bee-utey's threads - they are pretty much spot-on. It's not something to fear or get frustrated with. just check each step, and it will either highlight a faulty component, or a fault in the existing procedure, which is easily corrected.

[Chucaro]

Yesterday I fitted the module and coil supplied by bee ute on my RRC V8 3.9
The improvement in power under petrol and gas it is remarkable, specially noticeable on gas.
A big thanks to Jilden your help is very appreciated :)

[incisor]

so for an 88 rangie

the bosch bim024 module and a bosch mec717 coil will do the job?

or is there a better combo?

[Rick1970]

That's what I have on my 3.5 Disco, works well.

[85 county]

lol i never really considered a fatter spark as producing more power. timing yes but fatter spark no.

anyway the coil on my mizy van died on the side of the road. a mate shot round with a red after market job that had a balance that was on a 265. took off the balance and just wired it up.

my fuel consumption went from 280-290 lim a tank to 320-330 a tank and now it pinks a bit. and its been a few months now

[Grimace]

I hope this works with the standard coil. 90936

[bee utey]

I hope this works with the standard coil. 90936
Should do, so long as the module has good heat transferring contact with the heat sink. Put plenty of white stuff under it? I suggest you drill a 3mm hole through the other module mounting hole and fit a small nut and bolt. Otherwise vibration may loosen the other screw which happens to be the earthing point of the module. The OEM coil should be just fine.

And I hope that you fit some heat shrink over those naked crimp connectors, after you've made sure they're tight. Loose or corroded connections are the major point of failure of every one of these conversions I've seen other people do.

[Grimace]

Meh is only Reggie. She gets all the booty fab!

[Kevin B]

Do as Beeutey suggests I left mine with only one side bolted up and when it got hot I got blue sparks all over the leads at night, could not figure out why then I put another bolt in and it fixed it

Sent from my GT-I9305 using AULRO mobile app

[DAMINK]

Well attempted the conversion today :p
NO JOY lol. Not sure what is up.
Basically no spark.
All i did was change the module and kept the existing coil i have.
Any ideas what i may have done wrong?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/damink-albums-my+disco+1-picture5505-attempted-bosch-conversion-haha.jpg

Sorry its so messy. I tried to space it out so the pic made it easy. Not sure that worked.

[bee utey]

Well attempted the conversion today :p
NO JOY lol. Not sure what is up.
Basically no spark.
All i did was change the module and kept the existing coil i have.
Any ideas what i may have done wrong?



Sorry its so messy. I tried to space it out so the pic made it easy. Not sure that worked.

What is the "black wire to coil negative" from? If it's the shielding wire off the dissy wiring all you'll achieve is a dead short to ground on the negative coil side which will burn out the coil ASAP. Black is usually earth and should go to a body connection NOT coil negative.

Anyway, the checklist should cover everything else:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/96950-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-a-4.html#post2085761

[DAMINK]

What is the "black wire to coil negative" from? If it's the shielding wire off the dissy wiring all you'll achieve is a dead short to ground on the negative coil side which will burn out the coil ASAP. Black is usually earth and should go to a body connection NOT coil negative.

Anyway, the checklist should cover everything else:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/96950-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-a-4.html#post2085761

Was able to get it going. Yep the black wire was wrong mate.
So luckily the coil is not totally dead. Will replace but car is running.
Thankyou bee utey :)

[bee utey]

Your coil should be fine unless you left the ignition long enough to overheat the coil. Those coils usually emit a stream of stinking hot oil out of their vent if they are shorted long enough, that's a safety feature, rather than blowing up. Up to a minute or two normally doesn't kill them.

[Fity]

I fitted the bosch BIM024 (Brand new Genuine Bosch) to my 93 RRC on the weekend replacing the Lucas system which seemed to be operating OK. Now there is a huge hesitation/surge (like running out of fuel) when between 1800 and 2000 RPM when transitioning between light pedal and 1/4 pedal while driving on Petrol. Petrol was fine before the mod and when on LPG there is no problems. On both fuels it does feel better to drive.

When I did this mod I was out of LPG so as soon as I hit the road the hesitation/surge was apparent. I drove to the servo and filled the LPG tank and switched to LPG. The hesitation/surge disappeared until I was on petrol again.

As the hesitation/surge is RPM based I thought that the BIM024 module might be getting some RFI induced from the alternator which was stopping the ECU from fueling the engine properly. I re routed the wires from the Dizzy to the BIM024 module and it has improved a lot, but the hesitation/surge is still there. When the engine is cold the hesitation/surge is almost not noticeable, but once up to temp it is back. It seems that under higher fuelling (cold engine, higher RPM or more throttle) the hesitation disappears.

Normally I would just think that the problem was ECU or fuel system, but since the problem occurred after the mod and re routing the dizzy wires improved things I think it must be the mod.

Is there a particular location that is recommended to route the dizzy pick up wires? Should the dizzy pick up wires be of a braided shield type? Any other suggestions?

Thanks for any help. :)

[bee utey]

I fitted the bosch BIM024 (Brand new Genuine Bosch) to my 93 RRC on the weekend replacing the Lucas system which seemed to be operating OK. Now there is a huge hesitation/surge (like running out of fuel) when between 1800 and 2000 RPM when transitioning between light pedal and 1/4 pedal while driving on Petrol. Petrol was fine before the mod and when on LPG there is no problems. On both fuels it does feel better to drive.

When I did this mod I was out of LPG so as soon as I hit the road the hesitation/surge was apparent. I drove to the servo and filled the LPG tank and switched to LPG. The hesitation/surge disappeared until I was on petrol again.

As the hesitation/surge is RPM based I thought that the BIM024 module might be getting some RFI induced from the alternator which was stopping the ECU from fueling the engine properly. I re routed the wires from the Dizzy to the BIM024 module and it has improved a lot, but the hesitation/surge is still there. When the engine is cold the hesitation/surge is almost not noticeable, but once up to temp it is back. It seems that under higher fuelling (cold engine, higher RPM or more throttle) the hesitation disappears.

Normally I would just think that the problem was ECU or fuel system, but since the problem occurred after the mod and re routing the dizzy wires improved things I think it must be the mod.

Is there a particular location that is recommended to route the dizzy pick up wires? Should the dizzy pick up wires be of a braided shield type? Any other suggestions?

Thanks for any help. :)

When I do this conversion I usually cable tie the pickup wires (plain twin core) to the top radiator hose. However, as a first check, undo the vacuum hose off the distributor and test drive. If this fixes the problem then you may have the pickup wires connected the wrong way round, advancing the timing beyond the distributor cap's ability to connect.

[Fity]

Thanks bee utey, I more or less have the wires (2 core with a black sheave) over the top of the radiator hose as far away from the alternator as they can be. I will try taking off the vacuum hose and test driving. I triple checked the wiring as per your instructions before turning on the ignition, but anything is possible. :) If the wires are backwards would it still run ok on LPG?

Should the vacuum hose be disconnected when setting the timing?

[bee utey]

Thanks bee utey, I more or less have the wires (2 core with a black sheave) over the top of the radiator hose as far away from the alternator as they can be. I will try taking off the vacuum hose and test driving. I triple checked the wiring as per your instructions before turning on the ignition, but anything is possible. :) If the wires are backwards would it still run ok on LPG?

Should the vacuum hose be disconnected when setting the timing?

V8 EFI engines should all have the vacuum ported off the top of the plenum chamber and have no distributor vacuum at idle. It's always a good check of functioning vac advance to remove the line while holding the revs above idle, observing the pointer.

Not sure why your LPG is running better than petrol, I suggest you check that the MAF remains powered on while on LPG. The brown/orange stripe wire at the MAF should be live regardless of fuel selection otherwise it'll read a fault and run on limp home settings.

[Fity]

Thanks again bee utey. The vac advance is connected to the plenum.

I have battery volts at the MAF brown/orange wire.

Could the air gap in the reluctor cause the problem? I had trouble setting it when doing the mod as I only had steel feeler gauges.

[bee utey]

Thanks again bee utey. The vac advance is connected to the plenum.

I have battery volts at the MAF brown/orange wire.

Could the air gap in the reluctor cause the problem? I had trouble setting it when doing the mod as I only had steel feeler gauges.
I used steel feeler gauges without a problem, brass was suggested as recommended by LR. It's definitely a possibility that your gap is too large, I've seen it plenty of times.

[Fity]

Update. I moved the dizzy > BIM024 wires as far away from the alternator as possible ( within the length of wire ) and it seems to have fixed the problem. Maybe my alternator is emitting loads of RFI and disrupting the ignition signal that is sent to the ECU? I might change the condensers at the back of the alternator and distributor as they are supposed to suppress any RFI. I don't' like the wires being out in the breeze and unsupported most of the way. I will check the air gap again too.

Thanks again bee utey. :)

[bee utey]

Every 2 pulses from the ignition result in one injection event by the ECU. So it's likely that when the ECU sees extra pulses it goes a bit funny. I've not used shielded cable for that job before but I'm sure you could get some from Jaycar or similar. A strip of foil and tape could do it too, so long as the shield was earthed at one end.

[edthediscoman]

This thread is the reason I joined.

My problem:

Coil - hot 12V when ignition is on
(Old amplifier bolted to dizzy)
Coil gives spark on ignition on (Turning over and regular sparking)
No spark from dizzy to wires/plugs - therefore no start.

This has been intermittent till I came home the other day and now its no go at all. I did drive up the curb, bumps make it come and go. Now its gone completely.

New LR cap and Rotor and gets spark from HT wire in regular beats. Also checked the bump button?? The one that goes off in a crash, pushed it down. Not sure how to check that.

I am guessing it might be something external to dizzy. Therefore just removed and cleaned all grounds and checked block to battery -.

Why no spark at plug? obviously something stupid I'm missing.

[bee utey]

The tilt switch mainly cuts the fuel pump, not the ignition so shouldn't stop your spark.

If your rotor is new stock, I would suspect it was China manufactured and not fit for purpose. Try either another one or a second hand one out of a working vehicle. Cheaply made rotor buttons burn through really easily. Test the rotor button as per items 9 and 10 in the diagnostic post here. (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/96950-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-a-5.html#post2085761)

Make sure the white/black stripe wire is secure at the coil negative post, this is the rotation signal to the ECU and no injection/fuel pump will take place without it.

[edthediscoman]

Wires checked and double checked.

The car ran fine and idled better after replacing the rotor and cap (Original LR parts as I know about the cheap ones). This is definitely something else. the problem was definitely intermittent before and after cap and rotor change. (But I was changing them to find the intermittent ignition problem)

The car would drive fine then all of a sudden bog down, with fuel smell but no firing, then 4-5 seconds later, fire right back up.

Also: I changed the amplifier with a working one from my previous Disco that had the relocation kit - so I know it worked fine.

I have tried all the basics. The problem is now no ignition at all, but steady pulsing spark from HT lead when cranking over the engine, but no spark from dizzy to plugs. Strange!!

Strong smell of gasoline when stomping on throttle from exhaust pipe. So pretty sure thats fine. (Interesting that my fuel rail has no schraeder valve - I have two others in the garage that do - so will switch them next time its all off.)

[brookvale]

Hi, just completed the change from coil-mount amplifier (two wire DLM8 distributor; petrol (no LPG, 1992 RRC) to the BIM024 option.

Previous symptom was consistent lack of starting when engine hot over a couple of months or so. Lots of farts and stumbling; then it would fire up. But, once running, no issues at all.

Then, latterly, trouble starting from cold with brief running then dying. Then, no start at all. Multiple testing revealed occasional (weak) spark from coil HT lead. Then no spark at all.

Removed Distributor to get at amplifier.

Removed LR amplifier from distributor; plumbed in the two new wires (per BU posts and photos - thank you!) to the BIM024 module; re-directed the WB and W wires accordingly.

Note: this setup is a 100? Special (Series body on RRC chassis), and so my coil mount is not any where near standard.
(read ? as quote marks in the text - thanks)


Contrary to the ?up to 1990? RRC wiring diagram (Haynes), there was a WU (white/blue) wire joined into the WB wire leading to the distributor amplifier connector, hidden within the loom. The WU wire lead back to the ECU. The ?post 1995? Haynes diagram shows the WU wire connected through Tune Resistor #1).
( I suspect the 1992 model was in that grey area for published wiring diagrams for models)
I left it in place.

Nothing else in/on the EFI system/wiring/connectors was altered or changed.

Re-install distributor to original position (timing position checked)

Pre-start tests showed all Volt and Ohm readings OK.
Main HT lead from coil left disconnected and within 6mm of Earth
Turn key to Start. Excellent spark to Earth.

Then first actual start:
Instant firing; Then directly the three step idle routine as expected from the System:
About 1500 rpm from start.
Then about 1000 rpm
Then about 700 rpm with steady idle
All in three, brief, distinct steps.

All seemed to good!

Then, within about 60 seconds, a jump/instant increase to 2000rpm for about 3~4 seconds.
This was then followed by a sudden drop to about 500rpm, with uneven firing, then a stop dead.

Multiple starts after checks and tests of the new wiring saw similar running problems.

The same problem has occurred after letting everything cool down.

Then, after a start, I found I could prevent a stall with judicious tweaking of the throttle pedal, just after the revs ?jumped? to 2000rpm.

This initially suggested an Idle Air Control Valve (Bypass Idle Valve/Idle Valve) problem ( just Google it).

Then, after much Googling, I found this helpful page (http://www.g33.co.uk/fuel_injection.htm).
To me, this explained exactly just what was going on as the system started.

With this in mind I went back to basics.
I hooked up my timing light and saw :

1. On start up and after a few seconds of idle, the timing light on the crank pulley showed 9deg BTDC (about normal, I think)
2. Then, after sometimes 30 seconds, at other times 10 seconds, suddenly all would go haywire; an increase of rpm (I am guessing about 2000) and irregular rpm.
From what I could see with the timing light, the timing had gone completely over-advanced.
3. As above, I could increase the throttle (manually) to prevent the stalling.
4. After some tweaks with the throttle, I could get the engine to settle at a steady idle.

Bear in mind that I have checked :
All vacuum hoses in/on/around the Plenum, Chamber are tight.
The Idle Air Control Valve (Bypass Idle Valve/Idle Valve) seems to operate OK
(seen to be moving in/out when removed but plugged in)

One issue not resolved:
There's no difference in timing (via the timing light on the pulley) when the Distributor vacuum hose is removed or connected, regardless of rpm.
But when the engine is running, increasing rpm shows a steady advancement of timing with no noticeable irregular firing.
Idle shows 9 deg BTDC; at about 3500rpm, light shows timing at the letter R on the ?BEFORE? stamped on the crank pulley.

Then, when the ?problem? (#2 above ) occurs, the timing light on the crank pulley shows a huge ignition ADVANCE.
Judicious tweaking on throttle( initially opening it on rpm dropping, then closing it, etc, etc) can prevent a stall. After such tweaks all seems to settle with the timing light showing 9 deg BTDC.

My Question:
Before the ignition amp failure ( I can only assume the original problem was such) , the engine ran smoothly over all rpm ranges.
I've checked all connections ? all tight. I even tried reversing the Distributor pickup to BIM024 module wires (#3 and #7). Reversed them from what I had originally (per postings), it was worse ? no running!). Hence swapped back.

Should I be chasing a Distributor internal mechanical problem?

[brookvale]

Video of the problem as seen, here : https://youtu.be/fQvs8TjhhmA

[bee utey]

Sounds like you're picking up interference in the wires from the distributor to the ignition module. Keep the wires well away from the main wiring loom and especially the alternator. Run some coaxial wire for the pickup if you can get hold of some, or wrap the insulated wires in foil and earth the foil at one end.

If all else fails, get another module. I had one last year that was faulty out of the box and had to be replaced. Not sure it did anything like yours though.

[brookvale]

Thanks for quick reply - this forum is the best :)
Yes - I thought this might be the problem so tried moving the wires away, as much as I could, from the alternator and the coil . No go with my setup. I'll try the RF shielding/coaxial option.

The BIMO24 was NZ$100! I'll trust for now it is good :)
cheers
Neil

[brookvale]

All good now with smooth consistent running; thanks for your advice :)

The AL foil wrap option failed (hint: don't bother).

Then I replaced the two single unshielded wires from the distributor to the BIM module with a single run of CB radio aerial coax cable I had spare. Module -ve wire is the shield braid. Module +ve = the core.
No more bizarre ignition advance issues now.

If anyone is doing this mod and trying to fiddle with cutting crimp blades to fit into the sockets on the DLM8 distributor (after unbolting the dead LR amp module), then try Jaycar. They have 2.8mm crimp blade connectors off the shelf :) perfect fit. But watch for a poor crimp connections even when using decent crimp pliers. I'd recommend soldering your new wires into the crimped joints after using the crimping pliers - the joint can work loose if you don't. (ask me, I know from experience!).

And a word or two for people chasing idle or uneven running issues; make sure you have rock solid proper timing of sparks from your distributor. The Rover 14CUX system is very accommodating, up to a point.
It's all to easy to start trying to chase imaginary faults with your MAF unit, your Idle Air Valve or your ECU without checking the basics first.

Neil

[psoma]

Thanks for the suggestion and write-up bee utey.

Replaced the remote ignition module and coil with BIC290 and BIM024 units
on my Rover SD1 (Lucas 35DM8) today after issues with weak spark and eventual cut-out in hot weather. The car fired up first crank (once I got the polarity right) and ran as sweet as candy through to the end of a very spirited run.

Existing module was a new "Standard" brand unit (eBay link here) (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-Genuine-STANDARD-Ignition-Module-For-Rover-3500-Vitesse-3-5L-/121024656175?hash=item1c2da1b32f:m:moR_Wu9bE4f50hK m3EK79vQ) which turned out to be absolute tripe. It's Bosch or bust for me now.

Cheers mate,

Tom

[jonse]

Thanks for the write up bee utey.

Currently chasing intermittent random engine stops. Thinking I had classic symptoms of immobiliser failure I spent the afternoon removing the centre console only to discover that the spider had already been bypassed, and the immobiliser module not plugged in. ****stix.

So off to my local spares shop before it closed and purchased a BIM024 and MEC717 coil, then reassembled the centre console only loosing one screw.

Now I think I have my head around the required wiring. What I am not clear on is why there are two Lucas RD953066 resistors poking out of the end of the coil wiring harness, connected to the White Blue and White Black wires that just return into the harness. Some Internet delving suggests these are to reduce the coil operating voltage, although why there are two connected separately I don't know and I can't find the ignition circuits in Rave to check out what might be going on. Does the BIM024 and MEC717 Coil combo function happily on an constant 12V supply ?

[bee utey]

Thanks for the write up bee utey.

Currently chasing intermittent random engine stops. Thinking I had classic symptoms of immobiliser failure I spent the afternoon removing the centre console only to discover that the spider had already been bypassed, and the immobiliser module not plugged in. ****stix.

So off to my local spares shop before it closed and purchased a BIM024 and MEC717 coil, then reassembled the centre console only loosing one screw.

Now I think I have my head around the required wiring. What I am not clear on is why there are two Lucas RD953066 resistors poking out of the end of the coil wiring harness, connected to the White Blue and White Black wires that just return into the harness. Some Internet delving suggests these are to reduce the coil operating voltage, although why there are two connected separately I don't know and I can't find the ignition circuits in Rave to check out what might be going on. Does the BIM024 and MEC717 Coil combo function happily on an constant 12V supply ?

The white/black stripe wire returns via a short loop to the negative side of the coil, the white/blue stripe wire takes the coil pulses to the ECU after passing through the resistors. The Bosch coil and module are designed to connect to straight 12V via the plain white wire at the (+) terminal at the coil, exactly like the original Lucas electronic ignition system.

[jonse]

The white/black stripe wire returns via a short loop to the negative side of the coil, the white/blue stripe wire takes the coil pulses to the ECU after passing through the resistors. The Bosch coil and module are designed to connect to straight 12V via the plain white wire at the (+) terminal at the coil, exactly like the original Lucas electronic ignition system.

That made perfect sense. Thanks again. Got it all back together now and it fired up first time and seems smoother than before. The acid test will be SWMBO's commute to work tomorrow morning - see if it has cured the random / intermittent engine stop. If this doesn't cure it I am stumped having already ruled out the immobiliser (Spider already bypassed)

120450

Re using the existing bracket meant the Bosch ignition amplifier sits a bit closer to the air intake bellmouth than I would have liked - couldn't mount it on the other side of the bracket like the original as the connections point the wrong way and would hit the front panel. Suppose the extra airflow round the amp will assist in keeping it cool. Found it a bit wierd that the positive connection from the distributor is the blue wire not the red one. See pics in Davo's post No. 133 in this thread.

[Davo]

I had a look, and it seems that the red wire is positive, according to the diagram I put up. Or did I miss something?

[bee utey]

I had a look, and it seems that the red wire is positive, according to the diagram I put up. Or did I miss something?

Without using an oscilloscope it probably makes little sense to assign positive and negative to the pickup wires, just connect them in the direction they work best. One day I might even do the investigation for my own interest.

[Davo]

I think I see what you mean. The distributor is just switching, isn't it? I went by the diagram I posted here: Lucas ignition amplifier replacement by Bosch 024 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/96950-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-a-14.html) but now that I think of it I don't know why I went with red to #7 and blue to #3. So what would happen if these two wires were swapped around?

[bee utey]

So what would happen if these two wires were swapped around?

The ignition module triggers on a later section of the pulse generated by the pickup and massively retards the timing. The rotor button may no longer aim at the relevant ignition lead and cause loads of backfiring, especially with the vacuum advance hooked up. The signal as viewed on a CRO might look like this:

[Davo]

Thanks, (again!). So you'd certainly know if you got it wrong.

[westy1]

Here's the history! Just built a new 4.2 engine for the 1978 two door,thats another post some time,and all was well.
Doing about 80k around some back roads on a break in engine run,no warning,total engine fail,radio,all dash lights,electrics and steering..whoo!! pulled onto verge luckily no one behind me.
If that was on the motorway might not have been quite as relaxed..
3 year old rugrat pipes up from the back seat "Oh dear,Wange Wover is dead,,you fix it?"

Ok,'don't panic ,don't panic'.. as corporal jones used to say

Turned key off,then back on,all lights returned and it started with some thought..
30 km later about 1/2 a click from house,shutdown again.

OK,hot engine,new build..fuel/ air /spark?

Kinda knew the history on rover ignition modules,so had a chinese lucas one spare,swapped it over,and carried on.
Next long run,it did the same after about 50km ,no warning just engine failure and forced landing practice,pick a paddock..

Had the fuel air mix on the 14cux dialled in,so gotta be lectricity,and by luck found Bee Utey's magic post,,would still be floundering in lucas evil darklands,if it wasn't for his sharing the knowledge,big ups :):)
Great gems from other contributors too helped fine tune ,cheers.

Set up was Britpart distributor,(don't start;0) with attached britpart ignition amp on side.
Standard Lucas sport db coil.
Newly installed Kingsborne 8mm Lead set
(check them out,really very high quality,beat magnecor in my book,and way cheaper.great email comms from the company,and even negotiated cheaper snail freight from the usa.they have fully made up rover v8 sets and they click fit great,no leakage at all with the lights out,superb)

The ignition amp overheating coincided with the change over to these excellent leads,is there any thoughts why better leads might cause the thing to melt? or maybe i was doing longer runs,hotter around the module for longer?

Followed instructions,slowly as lectriks not my forte'
Ruined the nasty cheap connectors in the blue rubber side sleeve so re crimped better ones attached to the jaycar 2.8mm spades with a small solder dab over both to stop them potentially losing contact as was suggested.
The thought being,i can still get them off if i change the distributor.

Used a standard bosch coil i had lying around,likely oem for disco 1/late classic.
Slightly blown away ,1) I hadn't fried anything,it started 2) how well this made the car go,mid range torque improved and as someone earlier mentioned hillclimbs with ease,wow.

May contemplate installing a MEC717/723 improve that lean mix burn,even better torque,thoughts?

Slight erratic tach (off the coil )at low rpm,so had two goes at closing the air gap on the **** blitpart dist,down to .002inch approx with solid steady ish idle,barely a blip.

Many long runs since,not a hint of shutdown,and placed on the wing,that coil and module stay cool to touch,nice.This is a must do..

[bee utey]

It's important to realise that the original ignition module is designed to be used with high resistance carbon cored leads of the day, not these fancy new and "better" inductive cored leads. Resistive leads work by dissipating the peak current flow as heat which is lost from the leads never to be of any further use. Inductive core leads work partly by storing some of the peak energy in the lead's internal magnetic field, within the spiral wound core of the lead. This energy is returned to the system after the peak has passed. Back EMF from the coil primary is then fed back to the switching module's transistor, creating added heat where it was never designed to come. The Bosch module is simply better suited to handling increased currents due to it being used with much higher powered coils than those used on stock Land Rovers. As for a LRV8, the later Bosch OEM coil seems to be entirely adequate for the job, so replacing it wouldn't be my highest priority.

Here endeth the lesson. [biggrin]

[westy1]

The bosch ignition setup runs great,i had a slight idle miss that i was chasing.
It's not the bosch setup wiring as i reinstated the original config and the occassional blip/miss at idle was still there,so the cause is elsewhere.Will chase that later.
I had a few old ignition amps laying around from years gone by,so thought to build a 'dummy module' that would let me use the standard lead that comes with later model disco 1 /late range rover classic with the remote ignition amp,and hook it into the bosch setup.

The remote kits are available,but very expensive for what you get..

Had been to a local wrecker for the remote plate,and found a lead that had the right connector to fit on top of the dummy amp.

First ignition amp was an ancient original,and i sort of butchered it trying to get the white plastic plate off,wrong side to attack..
Second one was a britpart special,dremell cut an edge under the 'metal plate side' and the plate lifts up with a broad flathead screwdriver.

Observations: The original is chocka full of nice circuits and wires and a gloopy clear liquid.
The britpart one had barely anything in it,and only a ''thin coating'' of the circuit board with a white heatpaste silicon ,no wonder they cook..

Warning:I did recall a warning not to touch the liquid that seeps from leaking ignition amps ages ago.
An early manual states the originals have beryllium in them,this is highly toxic,so gloves a must,long sleeves to avoid skin contact,maybe the full ghostbusters kit to remove the slime.
I presume the beryllium is in the gloopy heat transfer gel, so dispose of it responsibly.

I used the nearly empty britpart shell,took the same precautons,but very little of anything in these ones.

Used a wire to the cars battery pos+ and tested which pins fed which tab with the voltmeter.
Then looked at the wire colours on the lead that plugs into the top of the ignition module that runs to the BIM024 .
I wanted to have it so red went to #3 and black to #7.
Drew a quick sketch on paper which pin led to which tab,as too hard for braincell to remember.
Quick messy micro solder job,only cos i'm crap;)

Silicone the edge of the now open plate side dummy module to waterproof it ,reattach it to the distributor.
Module is screwed solid back on the heatplate so now you have standard wire connection via the blue rubber sleeve,,with removable lead plug.Just another option.

[onno wielinga]

on the distributor are two pins to the magnetic pickup; is the left or the righthand pin negative/ earth?

[bee utey]

on the distributor are two pins to the magnetic pickup; is the left or the righthand pin negative/ earth?

Neither terminal is negative or earth. The output of the pickup is alternating current and what matters is the polarity of the current at the triggering point. I haven't run an oscilloscope to determine which way the current goes at this point as this knowledge isn't needed to get it to work. There are only two ways to connect the pickup after all.

[psoma]

So I completed this conversion about 12 months ago on my Rover SD1... works great when cold, but once the car has warmed up (approx 10 mins) it starts dropping spark randomly at idle. Maybe a blip every 1-3 seconds which doesn't happen when cold.

Any ideas?

Cheers,

Tom

[bee utey]

So I completed this conversion about 12 months ago on my Rover SD1... works great when cold, but once the car has warmed up (approx 10 mins) it starts dropping spark randomly at idle. Maybe a blip every 1-3 seconds which doesn't happen when cold.

Any ideas?

Cheers,

Tom

I'd be checking the clearance of the pickup to the rotor and tightening it up by a bee's dick. Cold idle is often faster than hot idle. Then go around and check that every connection is completely clean and tight.

[psoma]

Thanks bee utey.

I’m actually running an aftermarket ECU without idle control so my idle speed is actually lower (700rpm) than when warm (1000rpm). I will recheck my connections but is there a chance this thing is overheating even in under 10 mins?

Cheers,

Tom

[bee utey]

Thanks bee utey.

I’m actually running an aftermarket ECU without idle control so my idle speed is actually lower (700rpm) than when warm (1000rpm). I will recheck my connections but is there a chance this thing is overheating even in under 10 mins?

Cheers,

Tom

Possibly. Your heat sink must be big enough, and the white paste applied thickly enough to take the heat out of the module. I've seen plenty of dodgy versions of this conversion done by other people who use things like tiny scraps of stainless steel, no paste or low quality crimp connectors. However, my guess is still on slightly loose or dirty power connections.

[BigJon]

Couple of photos of the conversion I did today. This is 96 Disco ignition, although it is fitted to my 87 RRC.

I reused the original wiring where possible. You can see where the distributor blue and red wires have to connect to the new module.

Ignition timing was still OK, test drive to come.

8 years later and still working perfectly.

[DiscoClax]

'94 D1a 3.9 auto based vehicle with 4.9 stroked HiComp engine running the standard 14CUX (with a MAF intercept to retune fuelling). Alternator is a P38A 120A genuine item, if that has an effect...

For many years I've been running the standard Lucas dizzy with the BIM024 module conversion and a MEC717 transformer coil. I have just swapped out the dizzy for a new 'Scorcher' unit (ie. Bosch HEI) hooked up to the same MEC717 coil. Brand new, made in Australia, custom graphed, etc. New BIM024 module came in the dizzy. All genuine parts.

I still have the same issue where I am getting a dirty rpm signal to the engine computer. The Lucas had this and now the Bosch as well. When I log the signal I see rpm spikes here and there during normal running (but doesn't show any symptoms), and this is more prevalent when the engine is wound out past 4,000rpm under load. This manifests at higher rpm as the engine computer reading an over-rev condition momentarily and cutting the injectors. It's seeing rpm spikes of well over 10,000rpm which trips the factory limiter. Logged data on a mate's D1a manual showed the same dirty rpm signal, however the manuals have a higher >15,000rpm rev limiter in the ECU and therefore the hard-cut doesn't manifest in his. Note that this doesn't show up in a Rovergauge log as it's too coarse between readings to catch it. It does appear with a 10Hz capture, though (refer below). I can tell you it's REALLY not nice having a 520Nm motor honking along hard and suddenly switching off and back on again rapidly at high revs and foot buried. Not great for the driveline either... Cue Transfer Case replacement happening today with an Ashcroft H/D rebuild.

141693

Has anyone seen that before? Is that something that can be cleaned up with a filter, or is related to something inherent in the vehicle? Is there a fix that anyone knows of? It's not the suppressor hooked up to the coil (capacitor) or anything simple like that is it? * please let it be simple *

I'm about to head off into the desert for the next three weeks and having a clean-running engine would be really good. I had the (expensive) Scorcher dizzy made to hopefully fix the problem but hasn't helped that at all (but it does run better given the re-graph, etc. so still well worthwhile).

PM sent to Bee Utey, but then I thought I'd chuck it out here for all to see...

Any help very appreciated. Thanks.

[LRJim]

I'd be checking the clearance of the pickup to the rotor and tightening it up by a bee's dick. Cold idle is often faster than hot idle. Then go around and check that every connection is completely clean and tight.Hey bee

Since getting the d1 running I've had a slight misfire at idle and when I pull away.
Changing the module was one of the things I done to get it running.
After having a skim through should I go back and adjust the pickup gap to the bare minimum?
I have a 5mm aluminium heatsink but I'm going to make it cover more area it's not much bigger than the module.
And if the polarity is wrong I'm assuming it would be running really bad? It runs fine after 1500rpm. I've gone over the connectors a few times now they seem adequate enough.

Cheers Jim

[bee utey]

Hey bee

Since getting the d1 running I've had a slight misfire at idle and when I pull away.
Changing the module was one of the things I done to get it running.
After having a skim through should I go back and adjust the pickup gap to the bare minimum?
I have a 5mm aluminium heatsink but I'm going to make it cover more area it's not much bigger than the module.
And if the polarity is wrong I'm assuming it would be running really bad? It runs fine after 1500rpm. I've gone over the connectors a few times now they seem adequate enough.

Cheers Jim

You're probably on the right track although misfires can be a real bugger to track down.

[DAMINK]

I run this system and i have no misfire so i can testify to it being a solid system.
To be fair i have been advised the amplifier is not the best one for the job but does work. (from an ignition joint in Scorsby)
But it does work.

Look for your miss. At night is always a good way to check.
Bonnet up is different to bonnet down, could have a coil spark on the bonnet for example. Had it happen.
I watched a guy spray water mist at night to detect a miss. Worth trying, but google it first.

[justinc]

Try it again with the alternator charge wire to the battery disconnected.

Jc

[DiscoClax]

In my case the problem seems to have disappeared since I finished the install properly (coil mounted solidly and wiring tidied up). Lots of WOT runs to redline on the last trip without a hint of a cough. Lovely. Haven't done a data log yet to see if the signal is still noisy, but runs well so I'm not touching it!

[LRJim]

Well I just remounted it all, I used the original z shape heatsink. I changed the dizzy rotor to a Bosch one also. It seemed to run better but I didn't let it get to temp or go for a drive. I'll see how it goes before adjusting the pickup. I eyeballed it last time and from memory got as close as possible so I may just leave it alone. Hopfully like discoclax it disappears now it's a bit neater. The module is near the intake horn now but when I make a snorkel that will go.

Cheers Jim

[Old Farang]

Possibly. Your heat sink must be big enough, and the white paste applied thickly enough to take the heat out of the module. I've seen plenty of dodgy versions of this conversion done by other people who use things like tiny scraps of stainless steel, no paste or low quality crimp connectors. However, my guess is still on slightly loose or dirty power connections.
The following is the dogs business:

Heatsink to suit SY4084/SY4086 | Jaycar Electronics (https://www.jaycar.com.au/heatsink-to-suit-sy4084-sy4086/p/SY4085)

[LRJim]

The following is the dogs business:

Heatsink to suit SY4084/SY4086 | Jaycar Electronics (https://www.jaycar.com.au/heatsink-to-suit-sy4084-sy4086/p/SY4085)I did think about a heatsink like that. The one ive got should be fine, I've seen other people here with good results with the original one. I'm pretty happy with the setup now just hope it helps with the misfire.

Cheers Jim

[bee utey]

I did think about a heatsink like that. The one ive got should be fine, I've seen other people here with good results with the original one. I'm pretty happy with the setup now just hope it helps with the misfire.

Cheers Jim

Considering that the original module was designed to be "cooled" whilst bolted to a hot distributor, the stock LR heatsink should be fine. I've used quite a few of them without problems.

[LRJim]

Considering that the original module was designed to be "cooled" whilst bolted to a hot distributor, the stock LR heatsink should be fine. I've used quite a few of them without problems.Yeah true on the xf it's it that tin box. Plenty of protection but no air flow, surprised they don't cook. I'll probably move the whole setup away from water splash eventually.

Cheers Jim

[LRpete]

Hi all I have a 97 Disco1 V8 stock running on petrol only. Original owner. Setup is Bosch coil , Lucas amp (original), Lucas Distributor (original), Magnecore blue ignition leads with Magnecore red coil lead, spark plugs NGK BP5EY (about 40k). Will be replacing with BPR5ES and new rotor.

Have read the threads and want to do the Bee Utey conversion but have a few questions. Hoping someone can help.

1. New coil options seem to be Bosch BIC290, MEC717, MEC723 etc but has someone compared the specs for the stock Bosch coil 0221122392 vs the newer options in terms of dwell, current etc so that the upgrade will suite the rest of the system? Or doesn’t it matter? Which is the best coil choice for my setup?
2. If the pickup leads from the distributor to the new amp are connected red blue as Bee Utey shows will there be any need to touch the distributor. The truck runs.
3. Is there an electrical connector I can buy and wire to the new amp then just plug in the harness from the distributor. If so where do I get it?
4. Should my red Magnecore ( 8.5 mm outside Metallic Inductance EMI and RFI Suppressed 2.5mm FM 200T stainless steel conductor) lead from the coil be the same as my spark plug leads blue Magnecore (8 mm outside Metallic Inductance RFI Suppressed 1.75mm CN20 chrome-nickel conductor) or doesn’t matter?
5. Attached is a picture of my current coil. It was replaced about 15 years ago by the dealer. How do I tell the current part number. Want to check if it is a 0221122392? It doesn’t look like the pics on the internet.

Thanks.


149278

[Johndoe]

Could someone inform me please.
All the wires going to the coil after this conversion please. (Both terminals) (Discovery 1 1994)

I have assumed this is correct but have no luck so far.
I understand this is well documented and think i followed procedure.

Loom near bottom or airbox.
Loom separates into 2.

1) Loom with resistor things.
I think white wire with black stripe is power to coil.
I think white wire with green stripe is negative to coil.

2) Other loom bit.
I think blue red wire goes to + on coil.
I think the blue wire goes to the - on coil.

Finally 2 wires from distributor go to amp.
And 2 wires from coil go to amp.

Any help in this regard appreciated.

[bee utey]

Could someone inform me please.
All the wires going to the coil after this conversion please. (Both terminals) (Discovery 1 1994)

I have assumed this is correct but have no luck so far.
I understand this is well documented and think i followed procedure.

Loom near bottom or airbox.
Loom separates into 2.

1) Loom with resistor things.
I think white wire with black stripe is power to coil.
I think white wire with green stripe is negative to coil.

2) Other loom bit.
I think blue red wire goes to + on coil.
I think the blue wire goes to the - on coil.

Finally 2 wires from distributor go to amp.
And 2 wires from coil go to amp.

Any help in this regard appreciated.

White wire with black stripe is definitely negative coil. White wire with green stripe is probably positive. red and black wires should be pickup wires from the distributor. Your setup should look something like this:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/22908d1267082681-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-a-d1-late-coil.jpg

From the last page of this thread.

[Trav Man]

Thanks Bee Utey for this thread as it has helped heaps.
I have just finished putting in the Bosch BIM024 module mounted to a 5mm plate of ally for a heat sink as recommended as I hope it's big enough and MEC717 coil into my Rangie aka George and I seems a bit smoother and easier to start but time will tell as he's not on the road yet but I am hoping before the end of the year.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49767711238_979dfbbf5a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iPNwES)



Trav Man

[Landyv8]

Gday guys,

I thought I would share my experience with this upgrade, hopefully it might help some of you.

Previously i had installed the electronic 3 wire distributor with the module on the side of the dizzy. This ran well for 2 years with minimal kms, whilst building up my 110. This motor is a 3.5 running an Edelbrock 500cfm carb.
On my first long drive out to get a wheel alignment the 110 suffered an ignition module failure. After getting a new module the landy fired back into life for the best part of a half day before the module
failed again. After that I thought stuff it I will go back to points, so reinstalled the old dizzy.

Anyway a few years later I came across this thread and bought the module and reinstalled my electronic dizzy and performed the conversion to BIM024. This seemed to run great, however I noticed there was hesitation on the first drive and thought it must of been down to the air gap between the pickup (the dizzy had been in pieces). So checked adjustment and took it for another good drive, all was well. Some friends and I had a journey planned to celebrate no more work for the year and went on 200km pub tour. On leaving the pub the furthest from home the hesitation started again (almost like running on 4 cylinders) After mucking around trying to get it running right I almost conceded defeat. After having something to eat/drink I fired it up again and took it for a thrash and problem was gone[tonguewink].
So on returning home I once again pulled the dizzy and went back to points to put my mind at ease. As the coil installed was almost new I ruled this out being faulty and order a pick up plate, suspecting this might be the source of the issue. This week reinstalled the pickup and refitted to the engine. On timing up the engine I noticed the timing was switching between the correct timing and being out by around 10deg. The tacho would flicker and at times and show double the rpm. I knew the thing was still cursed and was hacked off. Anyway I was in talks with one of the auto electrical companies we use through work. The old boy use to work for Lucas and explained that some of the 12v lucas coils were built with too thin paper separating the primary and secondary circuits and often the high voltage side would zap in to the low voltage circuit. This made sense and is likely why the lucas module only lasted half a day before failing. So i decided to buy and installed the MEC717. Once installed all issues have now been resolved and the tacho is reading much smoother. Road test has showed no faults and the Bosch module is doing well.

So to sum things up, make sure the coil is in good nick before carrying out the mod or if you're experiencing issues of repeat module failure, it could be the result of a failing coil. The faulty coil was a Lucas sport 12v coil for what its worth.

Lastly a photo of the install on my 110.
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[rfurzer]

here's the diagram from the Troubleshooting Manual for the record. Note that the second WB wire with a resistor does nothing in an auto

[rfurzer]

'94 D1a 3.9 auto based vehicle with 4.9 stroked HiComp engine running the standard 14CUX (with a MAF intercept to retune fuelling). Alternator is a P38A 120A genuine item, if that has an effect...

For many years I've been running the standard Lucas dizzy with the BIM024 module conversion and a MEC717 transformer coil. I have just swapped out the dizzy for a new 'Scorcher' unit (ie. Bosch HEI) hooked up to the same MEC717 coil. Brand new, made in Australia, custom graphed, etc. New BIM024 module came in the dizzy. All genuine parts.

I still have the same issue where I am getting a dirty rpm signal to the engine computer. The Lucas had this and now the Bosch as well. When I log the signal I see rpm spikes here and there during normal running (but doesn't show any symptoms), and this is more prevalent when the engine is wound out past 4,000rpm under load. This manifests at higher rpm as the engine computer reading an over-rev condition momentarily and cutting the injectors. It's seeing rpm spikes of well over 10,000rpm which trips the factory limiter. Logged data on a mate's D1a manual showed the same dirty rpm signal, however the manuals have a higher >15,000rpm rev limiter in the ECU and therefore the hard-cut doesn't manifest in his. Note that this doesn't show up in a Rovergauge log as it's too coarse between readings to catch it. It does appear with a 10Hz capture, though (refer below). I can tell you it's REALLY not nice having a 520Nm motor honking along hard and suddenly switching off and back on again rapidly at high revs and foot buried. Not great for the driveline either... Cue Transfer Case replacement happening today with an Ashcroft H/D rebuild.

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Has anyone seen that before? Is that something that can be cleaned up with a filter, or is related to something inherent in the vehicle? Is there a fix that anyone knows of? It's not the suppressor hooked up to the coil (capacitor) or anything simple like that is it? * please let it be simple *

I'm about to head off into the desert for the next three weeks and having a clean-running engine would be really good. I had the (expensive) Scorcher dizzy made to hopefully fix the problem but hasn't helped that at all (but it does run better given the re-graph, etc. so still well worthwhile).

PM sent to Bee Utey, but then I thought I'd chuck it out here for all to see...

Any help very appreciated. Thanks.


What was the resolution?

[DiscoClax]

What was the resolution?

Per my 18Aug18 post it seems that installing&mounting everything properly sorted it (good earths, proper wiring, etc). But I have barely driven it in the last year.

[Spel1]

Wonder if someone could offer some insight to this please?
RRC 1991 3.9, 2 wire original Lucas Distributor

Decided to follow the sage advice and do this conversion after poring over this thread a couple of times. The vehicle was running OK, but the benefits seem worthwhile.
Bought a new BIM024 module and MEC717 coil from Repco, so hopefully not knockoffs. Followed all the instructions, made new wires with soldered terminals. All the connections are tight and clean. Made a heatsink mount (though this is not a factor seeing as I have not had it on the road with the conversion so hasn't had the chance to get hot). I reset the dist airgap on the tightest point to .0016 thou with a flat feeler gauge.

Problem is this, it starts and runs - initially idle was rough until I tightened up the gap. However, its only happy to idle at about 14-16º BTDC, retard it to 10 and it stalls (checked with advance tube off and plugged). Any accelleration was rough with a kind of miss, idle kind of hunted around if it didn't chuff to a stop.
I thought I had indexed the rotor shaft on the wrong cog, so tried one either side and did not run at all other than a couple of unhappy coughs. Tried reversing the two wires from the distributor, did not run. Checked the numbers on the module, all the wires were going to the right place, checked the two other loom coil wires to the original + - locations, seemed correct.
So, in order to check my process of timing and distributor installation i reinstalled the old module and wiring, reinstalled the distributor, all was (and is) fine - stable idle, accelleration and running as it was before the new ign parts. A bit better actually as I discovered during the process that the vacuum advance was broken (I could suck air right through it), so now fitted with a funcional spare.

So what might be causing this issue?
Thanks

[Spel1]

Update to my problem below.

It's now working very well. I had a conversation with a very helpful tech guy at Performance Ignition Services (number given to me by Hurricane Automotive in Geelong who made the longer 9mm distributor to coil HT cable).
Anyway, Performance suggested that the wire I had made might be picking up a signal from a different source (sure enough I had it running too close to the left bank of spark plug cables) and that the connection wires were probably too long.
As a fix, suggested that I shield the wires and ground the shield (this was mentioned further back in this thread I remember now), and twist the wires together for the run, keep the length as short as possible and keep them away from interference.

I dug through the spares box, and found the D1 3.9 distributor I have still had the connection wire for the remote ign module. It is already twisted and shielded with a ground connection, and the plug actually fits to the two terminals on the Bosch 024. I did pull them out of the plug and solder them first though. Soldered two new 3.2mm spade terminals onto the dist end of the wires.

Pics attached of the working unit.
I made a fitted heat sink plate from 5mm aluminium for the left compartment that some use for a second battery (my second is inside), doubled the 5mm for the mounts to improve the heat sink - used heat sink paste for the joints. I cut up an old Lucas module mount and made a kind of holder for the wires on the distributor, keeps them stable and will prevent pull out. The wires finally run between the alternator and the PS pump, there is nothing else electical anywhere near.

As I mentioned, all good, and with a working vacuum advance feels so much stronger than before.

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