1000 litre IBC tanks

[mark2]

Has anyone had much to do with the 1000 litre IBC chemical tanks? (the palletised type in the galvanised cages)

I've bought one for use as a water tank for a fire fighting unit (will be mounting it on the back of a rusty HJ45) and was particularly interested in how UV stable the plastic is, ie do they stand up to long term outdoor storage or do I need to find shed space for it?

Also are there adaptors available to convert the thread on the outlet to BSP or camlock etc?

[Gillie]

We have had two since 2002. They are stored outside the shed in direct sun and we have had no problems with them. One is blue and the other is grey. You can get any fitting you desire. We have Camlocks on ours. Hope this helps.

[Hymie]

I got thread adapters for mine from a Grain store.

[Fluids]

As far as UV stability goes ... it's plastic. The longer you can keep the plastic out of the sun the better. They are not poly water tanks (which should last 50yrs in direct sunlight).

Commonly refered to (here in NSW) as chemical shuttle tanks ... silly bloody non-standard thread & (on some) stupid valve .... we sell the adapter here at work. We carry the "stupid thread" x 2" FI BSP adapter ... but there's also 2" MI BSP, 2" Camlock, and one other variation that eludes me atm.

Cheap way of getting a 1000L tank. Don't trust the inbuilt valve (if it has one). Add a real 2" gate/ball valve after the adapter and only use the (if) fitted valve when you really have to.

Most pump & irrigation stores should be able to supply the required adapter.

Kev..

[mark2]

To keep the whole setup simple, I'm also thinking of just dropping the suction hose in the top of the tank when drawing from the tank, rather than using the outlet at the bottom of the tank which saves having to swap between the tank fitting and the suction hose when drawing from a dam etc. It would then just be a matter of pulling the suction hose out of the tank and dropping into the dam etc for filling the tank or pumping from another source. I realise it wouldnt prime as fast, but the pump is self priming in any case.

The plan is to use use a 1" pump outlet (with a ball valve) for the delivery hose and a second 1.5" pump outlet (also with with a ball valve) for filling the tank via poly pipe, also through the top.

Any comments, feedback on this setup would be welcome.

[Fluids]

Connect the tank outlet to a ball valve, which is then connected to a BSP "T" peice with a poly nipple. Off the branch off the "T" peice, connect another ball valve with a nipple and on the other side of that valve put a male camlock fitting. Now connect the remaining "T" outlet to the pump inlet.

Connect your suction hose by way of a female camlock to the branch line off the "T" peice and swap valve positions when you want to pump out of the dam.

Yes, a 1" fire hose is ideal, and larger hose for filling, pump connection & loose suction line (1.5" or 2"). The bigger the suction pipe the faster the water transfer when filling.

Kev..

[Bigbjorn]

We carry the "stupid thread" x 2" FI BSP adapter ... but there's also 2" MI BSP, 2" Camlock, and one other variation that eludes me atm.



OK, Fluids, what the hell are FI BSP and MI BSP? I make most of my living out of taps and dies and I have never heard of these. I stock BSPP and BSPT tools ( ISO R and ISO C as they are sometimes called).

Can you put a name to the "stupid thread". It might not be as uncommon or stupid in other industries and applications.

[Anders D]

.........was particularly interested in how UV stable the plastic is, ie do they stand up to long term outdoor storage or do I need to find shed space for it?

Yes they would last for a long time. Some of them should be marked with date of expire but I have seen many of them last for 8-10 years past expire date.

[flagg]

The plan is to use use a 1" pump outlet (with a ball valve) for the delivery hose

If its for fire fighting (ie not damping down or moping up) be aware of how quickly you will empty it. 1000lts will go through a 1" pipe much faster than you might expect...

[clubagreenie]

Might be refering to BSPP vs BSPT? Also never heard of MI/FI and I've been hydraulics for over 10 years.

Anyone wants decent ballvalves (stainless or brass) or other fittings for these I can help out, dozens. Even ship free since I can.

And for what it's worth the only stupid thread as far as I'm concerned NPT is the worst. Try adapting it to anything else.

[bee utey]

Might be refering to BSPP vs BSPT? Also never heard of MI/FI and I've been hydraulics for over 10 years.

Anyone wants decent ballvalves (stainless or brass) or other fittings for these I can help out, dozens. Even ship free since I can.

And for what it's worth the only stupid thread as far as I'm concerned NPT is the worst. Try adapting it to anything else.

NPT thread seems to be popular in some hydraulics and LPG. Quite a trap as what seems to fit promptly wrecks threads. I keep taps for both just in case.

Plumbing fittings seem to be all BSPP these days, I needed huge amounts of thread tape to do some additions to the house plumbing the other day. Brassware has got a lot thinner since I was a lad. Do you have better stuff?

[clubagreenie]

Not so much a question of what do I have but what do you want. Issue with with BSPT/BSPP vs NPT is there is two sizes which interchange (same tpi) and others are only 1/2 to 1 TPI difference. Also the angle of the thread ridges/valleys are only 5degrees different (55 & 60 degrees) where the male of the 55 will fit into the 60 but not the opposite. BSPT male fittings will often have the hex section of the fitting notched at the peak of the crest of the hex where you'd fit a spanner to assemble. BSPP and BSPT are the same angle and TPI.

As for sealing, loctite have a new thread (literally a thin thread) that's great for fluid and gas. You can assemble and even loosen to align fittings without leaks. Otherwise 567 or 577 is better again. 577 would seal household pressures on waterlines immediately post assembly.

NPT is only popular on US hydraulics (like JIC or AN 37degree fittings like you'd find in your braided hose fittings). Great fitting but they are a UNF thread which also applies to UNO, a flat faced male thread port fitting which is oring sealed at the base of the male thread which engages into a chamfer on the port you screw it into. Then there's ORFS (oring face seal) again UNF but with a flat face with an oring groove at the end of the thread on the face.

Let me know what you need and I'll see what I can do. Brass is definately getting thinner (at least he bunnings quality stuff).

[Bigbjorn]

Avoid mixing 55 degree and 60 degree threads. This use crushes the crests of the thread and will not hold correct torque (self loosening effect). Whilst UNC and BSW will screw together with the exception of 1/2", don't do it on anything critical. Use them to hold on a mirror or a washer bottle or anything of no account but don't use use them on anything safety oriented or important like crankshafts, clutches, gearboxes, etc.



Nothing wrong with the USA NP pipe thread system. Just that many fitters and mechanics here can't recognise them. Don't ask me about hobbyists and restorers. Most of these latter have just enough knowledge of threads and fasteners to be dangerous.

My opinion of thread systems is that we should have standardised on UN systems, not ISO metric. I much prefer UN to Metric, cleaner, neater threads.

[mark2]

Avoid mixing 55 degree and 60 degree threads. This use crushes the crests of the thread and will not hold correct torque (self loosening effect). Whilst UNC and BSW will screw together with the exception of 1/2", don't do it on anything critical. Use them to hold on a mirror or a washer bottle or anything of no account but don't use use them on anything safety oriented or important like crankshafts, clutches, gearboxes, etc.



Nothing wrong with the USA NP pipe thread system. Just that many fitters and mechanics here can't recognise them. Don't ask me about hobbyists and restorers. Most of these latter have just enough knowledge of threads and fasteners to be dangerous.

My opinion of thread systems is that we should have standardised on UN systems, not ISO metric. I much prefer UN to Metric, cleaner, neater threads.

Is there a resource or link you could recommend for an amateur wanting to learn more about threads and fitting types? (to get me either into or hopefully beyond the dangerous category)

[Bigbjorn]

Get "Guide to World Screw Threads", P.A. Sidders, Industrial Press Inc. New York,1969. Still in print and readily available from technical book sellers, and a "Machinery's Handbook", same publisher, available in fine and large print editions and on CD-ROM, now in about its 24th or 25th. edition. It is regularly updated and reprinted. Have a look around second hand book sellers and try to find an S.A.E. yearbook, pretty rare but there are some out there. Newer probably better. There are a couple of books with less technical content pitched at the hobbyist which you can get from Motor Books or Pitstop Bookshop. Look at their on-line catalogues.

[Fluids]

OK, Fluids, what the hell are FI BSP and MI BSP? I make most of my living out of taps and dies and I have never heard of these. I stock BSPP and BSPT tools ( ISO R and ISO C as they are sometimes called).

Can you put a name to the "stupid thread". It might not be as uncommon or stupid in other industries and applications.


Brian .... FI = Female Iron / MI = Male Iron

I work in the water/pump/irrigation industry ... this is standard terminology, along with Parallel & Tapered versions of these std BSP threads.

The "stupid" thread looks like a NSW Fire Brigades thread, very coarse pitch (for speedy hookup of nut & tail assy's to fire hydrants), or maybe like the "milk" thread used in dairy's & milk transporters.

We refer it it as a Chemical Shuttle thread, but YMMV! :)

One thing that is becoming an issue is the amount of non-standard threaded items being imported into Oz. Our plumbing standard is BSP, but we are seeing a huge increase in all kinds of stuff that people bring in looking for pipework & fittings, only to discover that the threads are anything but standard BSP on that cheap water filter, pond pump, house pump, etc, that they bought off Ebay, at Bunnings, or Aldi ... alot of it comes from China .... or the USA. (ie - 1 1/16" where we use 1")

Kev..

[Fluids]

If its for fire fighting (ie not damping down or moping up) be aware of how quickly you will empty it. 1000lts will go through a 1" pipe much faster than you might expect...


70-80 l/min thru a 1" fire nozzle would give about 13-14min's run time.

Kev..

[Bigbjorn]

Brian .... FI = Female Iron / MI = Male Iron

I work in the water/pump/irrigation industry ... this is standard terminology, along with Parallel & Tapered versions of these std BSP threads.

The "stupid" thread looks like a NSW Fire Brigades thread, very coarse pitch (for speedy hookup of nut & tail assy's to fire hydrants), or maybe like the "milk" thread used in dairy's & milk transporters.

We refer it it as a Chemical Shuttle thread, but YMMV! :)

One thing that is becoming an issue is the amount of non-standard threaded items being imported into Oz. Our plumbing standard is BSP, but we are seeing a huge increase in all kinds of stuff that people bring in looking for pipework & fittings, only to discover that the threads are anything but standard BSP on that cheap water filter, pond pump, house pump, etc, that they bought off Ebay, at Bunnings, or Aldi ... alot of it comes from China .... or the USA. (ie - 1 1/16" where we use 1")

Kev..

Ok, they are descriptions of the fittings, not a thread. I started my apprenticeship as a fitter-machinist in the late fifties and have never heard these terms used before. The 1 1/16 would try anyone's patience This is not a recognised thread size in either BSP or NP. If meant to be BSP it would be 11 tpi and if meant to be NP it would be 11 1/2 tpi. Perhaps this is a manufacturer's innovation to limit interchange with competitors equipment or force you into their overpriced spare parts system a la Japanese motor cycles and some Euro cars.

There are a number of standards for chemical and petroleum threads, and almost every state had a different fire fighting system. Then you get down to the really obscure like British Standard copper tubing thread, and UN thinwall tubing thread.

[Fluids]

The real reason for the non-standard stuff we are seeing (afaik) is due to importers, importing goods to which they have no knowledge of ... "looks ok, price is right, we can make money on these, send us 1000 ! "

For example, sprinkler skids, 3/4BSP FI inlet, and an MI outlet thread that's a **** hair larger than 3/4BSP with a coarser tpi than BSP ... how the hell do I find fittings for that! ?? :( ... fittings suppliers in Oz only sell BSP plumbing fittings ... and try telling the customer that the thread is non-standard. Quite frankly he doesn't understand, or care, he just wants a fitting to suite, and I look like a goose when I try to explain ..... :angel:

Some pump manufacturers are doing this with pump i/o's ... casing has 1/2 unions, instead of threads. First time install is easy as pump comes with matching union 1/2's .... 2nd time, unless you buy the outrageously priced genuine union 1/2's, there's no way to re-use the pump. WTF! ... and if it's got a few years age on it, good luck getting the right unions because they've changed the thread on the current models to something slightly different, which doesn't fit the older models. Swimming pool industry comes to mind .... can't get new union 1/2's for the filter & pump ... gotta replace it! :(

The definition of "standard" is becoming a joke ... in our industry at least.

Kev..

[Bigbjorn]

Are you sure some of these gadgets are not now using Metric Conduit threads? Put a screw pitch gauge on them. All metric conduit is 1.5mm pitch.

[Fluids]

I'll see if dad still has his screw pitch gauge ... but regardless, even if it is metric conduit thread, it doesn't help because in this country you can't buy plumbing & pipe fittings (pressure rated) with metric conduit thread ... they're all BSP.

... a bit like tring to buy a set of 1/2" BSP wheel nuts :) <LOL>

Kev..

[Bigbjorn]

I'll see if dad still has his screw pitch gauge ... but regardless, even if it is metric conduit thread, it doesn't help because in this country you can't buy plumbing & pipe fittings (pressure rated) with metric conduit thread ... they're all BSP.

... a bit like tring to buy a set of 1/2" BSP wheel nuts :) <LOL>

Kev..

Metric conduit threads are in wide use in many industrial applications. Any good hose and fittings supplier has them. The taps and dies are readily available from engineering and machine shop suppliers. Suttons make them here.

[clubagreenie]

If you can get hold of a sutton rep get him to give you (two) sets of their poster charts for drills/taps/threads etc, go to office works and gave laminated, then send one set to me. I have only the drill sizes for tapping chart and it's great as it lists the threads and TPI's and (obviuosly) drill sizes if you're tapping for them.

Eaton hydraulics has a book for fluid fittings that cropps up from tipe to time, IF (and it's a big if) but if I could get hold of some copies would 20-30 be enough for everyone interested? There is also a book and set of thread gauges plus mini vernier (set up for internal and external thread measuring) plus seat angle gauge in a small plastic cover. I can get these if anyone wants but they are around $130- to $150- /set. I have one but it's used 20+ times a day.