New Russian Fighter

[juddy]

does this look alittle like a certain US fighter.....

A new Russian T-50 fighter lands at an airfield of the Sukhoi aircraft manufacturing plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur January 23, 2010. A new fighter aircraft seen as Russia's response to U.S. advances in military aviation made a successful first test flight on Friday, plane maker Sukhoi said. Picture taken January 23, 2010.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1679.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1680.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1681.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1682.jpg

[PAT303]

I think the ''old'' Sukhoi 35 would give any of the Yank wonder planes a serious scare so this one would give them heart burn.With stealth there is only a few ways to do it so you'll find all the planes will start looking the same,that will make it very hard in a swirling fight. Pat

[Zute]

Its got two engines where the yank plane has one.(correct me if Im wrong ) but I bet the russian is cheaper and more relieable.

[juddy]

Its got two engines where the yank plane has one.(correct me if Im wrong ) but I bet the russian is cheaper and more relieable.

thanks funny, well said..

[JohnF]

Its got two engines where the yank plane has one.(correct me if Im wrong ) but I bet the russian is cheaper and more relieable.

The American F35 that Austrailia may buy in the future, as our mainline fighter is only a single engine fighter. We have already put in big dollars for the development of this American fighter. But I think the Super Hornets that we are buying at the moment as a stop gap measure are twin engine fighters.

Cheap and relibaly are not the only criteria in a fighter. Availability of parts if you go to war is also important. Israel was flying French Mirage III figters some years ago when it went to war with Egypt. Egypt was buying French goods, so France refused to sell parts to Israel. After that time and because of this, Israel started to manufacture their own fighters. In other words you cannot go to war with someone who is a friend of who supplies your fighters, unlss you have abig stock of spare parts [Not that I agree with war].

Certainly some Russian Planes have had an edge on American planes in the past. Russia still has the fastest Jet fighter in the world. America had an edge only by having so many more planes in the sky than the Russians had.

Main worry for Australia is if we ever go to war we may find ourselves fighting against planes that the Russians have sold to our enemies, as Russia is after the big dollars from the sales of fighter planes.

And we in Australia do have have such good fighter capacity.

For example we have retired or are retiring the F111 fighter bomber. In war games with America it did very well, but our current fighters have only half the range.

For example years ago Indonesia drew a map of Australia with a line drawn across it a bit north of Brisbane marking the northern part of Australia as Indonesia. From northern Australia the F111 could fly to Indonesia on a tank of fuel; if Indonesia, the third biggest Country in the world as far as population goes, ever went to war with Australia.

But our Hornets and the Super Hornets which are to replace the F111 can only fly to Indonesia only if they are refueled half way by tanker planes, with a big bulls eye target drawn on the side. Then they have almost no air time over Indonesia before they have to turn around to go back to the tanker to refuel again, assuming the enemy has not shot down the tanker, in which case they ditch one of our few fighters into the sea and swim home to Australia.

So if we ever go to war with Indonesia without the F111, without allies like the USA, we could be in very big trouble. Especially if Indonesia was flying some of the very good Russian planes against Australia.

Years ago we were to buy one of the British Aircraft Carriers, I think it was the Invincable, with a fleet of Harrier jump Jets and that was a good move by the Australian Government. But the Fauklands' war broke out so Britain decided to use the Aircraft Carrier in that war, and no longer sell it to Australia.

After a couple of losses, Argentina was not willing to risk its planes against the slower, but extremely manoverable Harrier Jump Jets. So by using Harriers Britain had Air Superiority in that war.

And they hired Cargo Container ships to take loads of Harriers to the war zome, as they can fly vertically of a normal cargo ship, but without a fullload of Fuel and weapons.

Also as the Harrier only needs 300 feet run to get airborne using a ski ramp with a full load, it an be hid in a forrest ready to use a forrest road to take off.

The United States Marines Flew Harriers of their Aircraft Carriers, and I think Spain & Italy, and may be France also have Harriers--but not sure without reading up on it. I do know India did want to buy Harriers.

There a American planes like the F-22 Raptor that can outfly most planes in the air, but America will not sell this to Australia, and at something like a Billion dollars a plane, without ground support costs, they are probably way too expensive for Australia anyway.

I d hope Australia dos not scrap the F111, but puts them in storage in case in the future they need to ressurect them for our defense. America put its F111 into storage and Australia has been buying parts from these stored F111's for many years.

[Jamo]

Don't forget, like many things, with fighter planes it's not always what it is that counts, but how you drive it!

[Phoenix]

much as I usually keep abreast of military aircraft developments, I missed this one. Althoguh it looks like it's been in the pipeline since at least 2007 according to Janes.

It's one thing to have a super fighter mind you, but another completely to have enough to make a difference. The magnificent aircraft produced by the germans towards the end of WW2 taught us that lesson.

The lessons of the benifit of a long range strike aircraft are also one learnt back even as far as WW1. Hopefully the australian commanders, or pencil pushers have not forgotten that. And as JohnF mentioned, tankers are big targets in a war, and the F-111 was a might hard to hit target, and still is today.

I heard rumours only 5 years ago about Mirages still in strage in Nth Australia, don't know abotu their accurace, but I hope they do keep some F-111's in reserve just in case, because magnificent as the F-18E/F is, it just doesn't have the legs or payload of the F111.

And Jamo really has one of hte biggest points, the winner is always the one who knows how to use (and fly) their weapons best.

[Bigbjorn]

The U.S. Marine Corps owns the Harrier now. They bought the design from the Poms when the Poms could not afford to update the aircraft, particularly the electronics and were going to consign it to the scrap heap. Agree with all preceding comments regarding range. We are a big country between two big oceans and range is possibly the most important design factor.

In spite of all the hype written about the Spitfire its range was its Achilles heel. It was strictly a home defence fighter and the early Marks could only stooge around over northern France for 20 minutes before having to head home to bases in southern England which were not much more than a short walk and a swim away. No chance of it ever escorting bombers to Strasbourg, let alone Berlin.

[PSi]

The current Sukhoi's strong suit is its amazing agility, great for wowing the crowds at air shows.
Is this ability relevant in a modern air battle?
The last two wars that had any air-to-air element showed that superior look-first-shoot-first capability won the day. Part of that look-first ability comes from outside the fighter aircraft, like the AWACS and JSTARS.
Sukhoi vs US planes may turn out to be a kungfu expert vs sniper kind of comparison.

[F4Phantom]

In todays air battles there is not much need for dog fighthing aircraft, something the f22 excells at. The f35 is superior in over the horizon because of its fancy radar and electronics. The f22 really is not great because it does not have a battle to fight in the future. As for the f11c, its obselete. The english found this out when they used these tactics in gulf war1 loosing planes. Since then we know planes are not required to deliver bombs, the bombs get there by themselves. The f111 is an awesome aircraft but not needed. The f22 is not needed so much as people say. The future in air combat is over horizon battles with electronics. If you can see the enemy aircraft you are probably going to be shot down.

Yes it may become a bit boring but thats how things are. Look at unmanned vehicles, they will become more important than piloted vehicles because they are cheaper, stay in the air longer, and you can have more flying at once. If you loose one its not a problem. Hopefully infantry can be replaced by robots so we can have robot wars.

Regarding thr T50, the indians are really the only sucessful airforce to use russian jets. The americans sell a system not a jet including parts and servicing and all that, the russians sell a jet. So at anyone time you will have say 90% of your us planes in the air and maybe 50% of your russian ones active, so this makes it a big problem. India have put together all the back end stuff so well that they advise the russians on how to do it.

The T50 though is the defender of 5 gen jets, simple, no fancy expensive 3rd sub structures, lots of hard points, easy upgrades of electronics in the future to make it true 5th gen. Its a defender running ubuntu.

[Chucaro]

I remember what the Argentinian pilots have done in the Malvinas with their old planes:eek:
The skills of the pilots who flight the planes is as important as the technology used in the planes ;)

[PAT303]

The current Sukhoi's strong suit is its amazing agility, great for wowing the crowds at air shows.
Is this ability relevant in a modern air battle?
The last two wars that had any air-to-air element showed that superior look-first-shoot-first capability won the day. Part of that look-first ability comes from outside the fighter aircraft, like the AWACS and JSTARS.
Sukhoi vs US planes may turn out to be a kungfu expert vs sniper kind of comparison.

You have hit the nail on the head,the Americans rely on superior electronics to guide the battle to thier likeing and to thier advantage,trouble is the other side doesn't play the game the way they want them to.If I was going up against the Yanks the first thing I'd do is attack thier comunication lines and radar network so they loose their eye's and ears and get my fighters in close for a good old fashion dogfight,thats were the Sukhoi's amazing agility would come into it's own.The Russians made it with such high agility to break radar lock from the firing plane as well as being able to out-turn the missile itself.Any plane that can fly at stall speed 80 degree's from the vertical is going to be a tough thing to fight. Pat

[PAT303]

The U.S. Marine Corps owns the Harrier now. They bought the design from the Poms when the Poms could not afford to update the aircraft, particularly the electronics and were going to consign it to the scrap heap. Agree with all preceding comments regarding range. We are a big country between two big oceans and range is possibly the most important design factor.

In spite of all the hype written about the Spitfire its range was its Achilles heel. It was strictly a home defence fighter and the early Marks could only stooge around over northern France for 20 minutes before having to head home to bases in southern England which were not much more than a short walk and a swim away. No chance of it ever escorting bombers to Strasbourg, let alone Berlin.

The channel has and always will be Englands first line of defence.It's one of the amazing things about the Battle of Britain,both sides were handicapped by thier fighters short legs yet neither side did anything to address it.It is funny to sit here now and think that the outcome of the war could have been totally different by nothing more than adding a 50gal drop tank. Pat

[Ausfree]

The channel has and always will be Englands first line of defence.It's one of the amazing things about the Battle of Britain,both sides were handicapped by thier fighters short legs yet neither side did anything to address it.It is funny to sit here now and think that the outcome of the war could have been totally different by nothing more than adding a 50gal drop tank. Pat
Didn't the Yanks add drop tanks to the Mustang fighter in WW2, so that it could protect the B17 bombers all the way to their targets?, I would have thought that would have been a great effect on the outcome of that war!!:)

[Sprint]

Didn't the Yanks add drop tanks to the Mustang fighter in WW2, so that it could protect the B17 bombers all the way to their targets?, I would have thought that would have been a great effect on the outcome of that war!!:)

drop tanks were added to virtually every fighter, even the spitfires, but it didnt mean much once the fighting started, jettison the tanks, get as many kills as you can and beat feet for home, landing on fumes

[PAT303]

The Mustang was a flying fuel tank on Berlin missions,they had the main tank behind the engine,another behind the pilots seat and two drop tanks. Pat

[PAT303]

drop tanks were added to virtually every fighter, even the spitfires, but it didnt mean much once the fighting started, jettison the tanks, get as many kills as you can and beat feet for home, landing on fumes

I've never seen a photo or read anywhere where drop tanks were used in the battle of britian.Only the PR spitfires had them that early. Pat

[Sprint]

I've never seen a photo or read anywhere where drop tanks were used in the battle of britian.Only the PR spitfires had them that early. Pat

never said they were used during the BoB, just that spitfires were, after a while fitted with drop tanks....


I remember what the Argentinian pilots have done in the Malvinas with their old planes:eek:
care to elaborate?

[Chucaro]

Sprint,here are some info about the Malvinas war.

Admiral Sir John Forster "Sandy" Woodward from the UK navy aknowledege the skills of the Argentinian pilots as well

Try to get some books from Pablo Carballo a Jet Fighter Pilot who made history on that war just because his skills.

Cheers

[Armadillo]

This thread got me going. I just can't resist a bit of aero-porn..:D

Swiss Air Force - Push The Limit (http://video.google.com/videoplay'docid=7705039587536161508#)

[PSi]

If I was going up against the Yanks the first thing I'd do is attack thier comunication lines and radar network so they loose their eye's and ears and get my fighters in close for a good old fashion dogfight. Pat

That sounds like a sensible intent, not quite a plan yet. Just how would you succeed?
The airborne radar planes are extremely high value assets and well protected at all times, in addition to being kept a long distance from the actual battle because they have such powerful sensors.
If you could get them, then you'd have a chance.

Back in WW II, the US typical navy fighters could never win a one-on-one dogfight with the Jap Zeros but they won battles anyway - by NOT dogfighting but using tactics that suited them, zooming in at speed to do slashing attacks, go in fast, shoot, scoot, turn around and do again.
You really can't dance if the other guy doesn't want to tango.

The ability to do tight turns could give a huge advantage to a single agile plane chased by a single missile fired by a single opposing plane. Would it work with a swarm of missiles fired by a swarm of enemy planes beyond visual range, though?

Having said all that, the SU-30 is a joy to behold ...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1657.jpg

[Sprint]

Sprint,here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_air_forces_in_the_Falklands_War) are some info about the Malvinas war.

Admiral Sir John Forster "Sandy" Woodward from the UK navy aknowledege the skills of the Argentinian pilots as well

Try to get some books from Pablo Carballo a Jet Fighter Pilot who made history on that war just because his skills.

Cheers
ahh, i took it in the context that they looked down on the equipment they had

the Argentine pilots were very quick to adapt to the threats and terrain, given better equipment and planning (specifically air-air refuelling) the outcome of the falklands conflict may have been different, certainly at a much greater cost to the British armed forces

Armadillo, definitely porn, would love to see the same with an F4....

[Armadillo]

Armadillo, definitely porn, would love to see the same with an F4....

Ok then, F4 porn...

YouTube- F-4 Phantom - One Last Breath

[PAT303]

That sounds like a sensible intent, not quite a plan yet. Just how would you succeed?
The airborne radar planes are extremely high value assets and well protected at all times, in addition to being kept a long distance from the actual battle because they have such powerful sensors.
If you could get them, then you'd have a chance.

Back in WW II, the US typical navy fighters could never win a one-on-one dogfight with the Jap Zeros but they won battles anyway - by NOT dogfighting but using tactics that suited them, zooming in at speed to do slashing attacks, go in fast, shoot, scoot, turn around and do again.
You really can't dance if the other guy doesn't want to tango.

The ability to do tight turns could give a huge advantage to a single agile plane chased by a single missile fired by a single opposing plane. Would it work with a swarm of missiles fired by a swarm of enemy planes beyond visual range, though?

Having said all that, the SU-30 is a joy to behold ...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1657.jpg

The Russians use IR in all thier planes,the reason is that it will pick up radar energy beyond the range of the beams ability to return to the reciever so you'll be cruising along in your Sukhoi knowing the Yanks are there but they won't know you know,thats were your Russian made BVR IR missiles take them by supprise so they can either try to evade the missiles,considering the sizes of the warheads,being proxy fused and are able to make more than one attack it's a dangerous move or turn their radars off or wind the power down limiting there range.It's all hyperthetical but if I was in Iraqs shoes I would have put everthing into one mass attack against a carrier group and overwhelm it with shear numbers befor the ineviable defeat. Pat

[markd2]

More on Harrier Jump jets Before we scrapped the Mebourne The government looked at buying them but the deciding factor was the Melbournes flight deck would not take the heat the jump jet creates it was proposed to put a new flight deck on Melbourne but was too costly so they scrapped her pity really we do need an aircraft carrier to be an effective navy

[PSi]

The Russians use IR in all thier planes,the reason is that it will pick up radar energy beyond the range of the beams ability to return to the reciever . Pat

Modern stealthy fighters like the Raptor would not have radars on while they are hunting ... that'd kind of give the game away, like a sniper walking around with a naked torch.
They would have the big see-all AWACS telling them, via digital data links, where the baddies are.
And stealth designs have reduced IR signature too.

[PAT303]

I didn't say it would be easy!!!!!. Pat

[clean32]

Modern stealthy fighters like the Raptor would not have radars on while they are hunting ... that'd kind of give the game away, like a sniper walking around with a naked torch.
They would have the big see-all AWACS telling them, via digital data links, where the baddies are.
And stealth designs have reduced IR signature too.

the stealth thay took out in the bulcans was done by using new russian toys. good old WW1 tech with an electronic twist. a sound detector and predictor.

but by nature stealth tech limits the air frame ( in shape and surface) which limits preformance, great for bombers but not so good for fighters.

[clean32]

You have hit the nail on the head,the Americans rely on superior electronics to guide the battle to thier likeing and to thier advantage,trouble is the other side doesn't play the game the way they want them to.If I was going up against the Yanks the first thing I'd do is attack thier comunication lines and radar network so they loose their eye's and ears and get my fighters in close for a good old fashion dogfight,thats were the Sukhoi's amazing agility would come into it's own.The Russians made it with such high agility to break radar lock from the firing plane as well as being able to out-turn the missile itself.Any plane that can fly at stall speed 80 degree's from the vertical is going to be a tough thing to fight. Pat

"The Russians made it with such high agility to break radar lock from the firing plane as well as being able to out-turn the missile itself" but wait there’s more, the hole flip 180 at 600 knots and for 25 seconds you are flying backwards the off the other way, all that with out stalling the compressor. THE US hasn’t figgerd that one out!

but as with any thing Russian, build quality, parts supply and limited range

[clean32]

Modern stealthy fighters like the Raptor would not have radars on while they are hunting ... that'd kind of give the game away, like a sniper walking around with a naked torch.
They would have the big see-all AWACS telling them, via digital data links, where the baddies are.
And stealth designs have reduced IR signature too.

on 2002 the Japs did lose 4 F18’s, being where they shouldn’t be, the Russians just popped a couple of smaller EMP's and splash. Harding is limited by weight Vers range

[THE BOOGER]

both our new helo carriers come with ski jumps and we have options for the vstol version of the f35. With the invincable it was us who said the brits could keep it as the then govt said we did not need carriers because they are offensive not defensive and the yanks did other us f22s but we couldnt afford them, with the last upgrade to the f111 they are capable of dropping or launching all current us missles including cruise missles when we bought the f111 the indonesions complained to canberra they also protested the last upgrade but so far i have not heard them complain about us getting the f35 does that tell us somthing. I wonder with the new russian fighter looking so much like the lightning where did the stealth tech come from :angel:

[Basil135]

This thread got me going. I just can't resist a bit of aero-porn..:D



That was awesome...:eek:


Please excuse me while I go to the bathroom...:o

[VladTepes]

Ok so I haven't read the whole thread just the first post but...

while I love Russian aircraft (just "coo" factor i there ya kno) they uually have avionics not up to the standard of the US and Western European offerings.

Airframe design on the other hand is brillant. Engines are catching up quickly, but also don't match the established Western brands... yet.

And don;t even mention dogfights... just doesn;t happen any more except in movies.

[Hoges]

on 2002 the Japs did lose 4 F18’s, being where they shouldn’t be, the Russians just popped a couple of smaller EMP's and splash. Harding is limited by weight Vers range

Hijack...:wasntme:
Hmmm can you buy a civvy version of an EMP and if so, will it work against the hifi of noisy neighbours? :wasntme::twisted::twisted::twisted:

[clean32]

Hijack...:wasntme:
Hmmm can you buy a civvy version of an EMP and if so, will it work against the hifi of noisy neighbours? :wasntme::twisted::twisted::twisted:

not in aus but you could make one

[THE BOOGER]

It would also take out your own hifi and any other electronic device within range they dont discriminate

[ramblingboy42]

If this sort of discussion interests you, Dale Brown writes some cant put down fiction around modern warfare with a lot of factual input. His two latest books revolve around "star wars" and the latest available known technology and the latest perceived threats. dont confuse Dale Brown with Dan Brown. Imho Dale Brown is the most exciting author currently on the planet with exception to our own Matthew Reilly

[Bigbjorn]

not in aus but you could make one

Will it take out covert surveillance revenue raising machines? If so, where can I get one.

[VladTepes]

I d hope Australia dos not scrap the F111, but puts them in storage in case in the future they need to ressurect them for our defense. America put its F111 into storage and Australia has been buying parts from these stored F111's for many years.

No they are scrapping them / selling them to collectors / museums etc.

Problem is that our airframes are so old they are highly uneconomical to maintain, and even if we had new airframes - if they were stored and ever required again the avionics packages would need a complete update. And they still wouldn't have stealth.

Sadly, their time is past.

They should keep a couple for dump-and-burns though !

[VladTepes]

To digress...


If this sort of discussion interests you, Dale Brown writes some cant put down fiction around modern warfare with a lot of factual input. His two latest books revolve around "star wars" and the latest available known technology and the latest perceived threats. dont confuse Dale Brown with Dan Brown. Imho Dale Brown is the most exciting author currently on the planet with exception to our own Matthew Reilly

Pigs bum !

Dale Brown is not bad, I'll grant you.
Matthew Reilly while writing a rollicking yarn is all explosions and NO credibility.

The most exciting author currently on the planet is actually Clive Cussler - a special favourite of shipwreck and old car fans - plus his novels are well researched also.

[rick130]

<snip>

For example years ago Indonesia drew a map of Australia with a line drawn across it a bit north of Brisbane marking the northern part of Australia as Indonesia. From northern Australia the F111 could fly to Indonesia on a tank of fuel; if Indonesia, the third biggest Country in the world as far as population goes, ever went to war with Australia.

Hmm, any references ?
It smacks of urban (paranoid) myth to me, but ???



But our Hornets and the Super Hornets which are to replace the F111 can only fly to Indonesia only if they are refueled half way by tanker planes, with a big bulls eye target drawn on the side. Then they have almost no air time over Indonesia before they have to turn around to go back to the tanker to refuel again, assuming the enemy has not shot down the tanker, in which case they ditch one of our few fighters into the sea and swim home to Australia.

So if we ever go to war with Indonesia without the F111, without allies like the USA, we could be in very big trouble. Especially if Indonesia was flying some of the very good Russian planes against Australia.

<snip>Really ?
Indo is only just 'over there', it isn't very far from Tindal. Is their range that bad ?
[edit]combat radius is only 330miles on hi-lo-lo-hi mission, 2000mile ferry range :o F/A-18 Hornet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Hornet)

Super Hornet here F/A-18E/F Super Hornet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet) and this is interesting

The order has proved to be controversial, with the critics including some retired senior RAAF officers. Air Vice Marshal (ret.) Peter Criss, a former Air Commander Australia, said he was "absolutely astounded" that the Australian government would spend AU$6 billion on an interim aircraft.[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet#cite_note-abc_15-03-2007-58)MiG-29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29) and Su-30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30),[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet#cite_note-smh_15-03-2007-59) which are already operated, or have been ordered, by air forces in South East Asia. Air Commodore (ret.) Ted Bushell stated that the F/A-18F could not perform the role that the Australian government had given it, and the F-111 airframe design would remain suitable for the strategic deterrent/strike role until at least 2020.[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet#cite_note-abc_15-03-2007-58) Some critics have claimed that the decision to buy the F/A-18F merely serves to ease the sale of additional Super Hornets to Australia, should the F-35 program "encounter more problems".[61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet#cite_note-60) Criss has also cited evidence given by the US Senate Armed Services Committee that the Super Hornet block I specific excess power is inferior to the

[clean32]

A bit of good stuff posted but its a bit incomplete, if we leave the politics out of it at the moment.

Before that I will chuck in a bit of business fact. weapons systems may be built by different companies but they are built hand in hand. If you wish to strap an American missile on to a Russian fighter you will quickly fined that there are no more missiles available to you. Apart from the fact that it would be a major exercise and an expensive one, if achievable at all.

now about Indonesia, it was not that long ago that Indonesians were raging in the streets and shouting," Indonesia much people no land, Australia much land no people". At that time it was really serial do-da and a task that got me 6 weeks in a Jakarta jail.

At about the same time Indonesia invested in an instant Navy, 126 ships were delivered from the Russians ( in default at that time).
Add to that the purchase by Indonesia of a bunch of F18s ( i think it was F18s) as well as the factory to build then locally.
As well as Indonesia’s policy of swelling its militias ranks to the point of toping 2 millions under arms

The only missing peace of the hardware jigsaw was landing craft or the ability of getting there hardware onto Australian shores.

The proverbial sticky stuff hit the spinning round thing big time when the intell of Indonesia starting to build its own craft. A bit like a cut down and lower version of a LSD of ww2.

what wasn’t known was tactics" the where and when" but the how was rather easy to sussout.

There first objective would be the establishment of there beach head. either an occupied site or a barren site. barren sites well they have plenty of acreage to choose from, occupied well that’s basically broome or Darwin.
If it was to be an occupied site it would need to be of a size with an infrastructure to support 0.5 to 1 million troops and support, ( mainly water). an unoccupied site and every thing would have to be shipped over including water.
We could also assume that Indonesia would be able to form a Cap over there ever there beach head would be.

Stage one, they would need to form air superiority over there intended landing area. They have 2 tools to achieve this, 1 there own fighter aircraft. We needed some to match this hence the hornets, the F1-11 are out of there liege in this arena. 2nd interdiction by sabotage, an easy thing for this to happen in Australia mainly because the average Australian is just so un security aware.
The landing itself. its a bit hard to hide 100 or even 50 ships heading in the same direction, this is where the F1-11 would come into there own, Hopefully Australia had maintained air superiority by that time. along with the subs who we hope would have been shadowing the Indonesian fleet and it would be a safe assumption that the fleet would leave the northern shores of Indonesia and swing way out west if heading for broome or a quick trip around to the east if going for Darwin.

ok what the aussie pollies did, about the Russian navy cant do much, but the yanks had just cut a deal with Indonesia to sell then F18s, so what happened we got some f18s as well but wait there’s more a hole bunch of mothballed F1-11 seem to have found there way from and American desert to an aussie airstrip, all nice and shiny and with new power plants electronics etc.

i will save NZs role in all this for now.

[JohnF]

A bit of good stuff posted but its a bit incomplete, if we leave the politics out of it at the moment.

Before that I will chuck in a bit of business fact. weapons systems may be built by different companies but they are built hand in hand. If you wish to strap an American missile on to a Russian fighter you will quickly fined that there are no more missiles available to you. Apart from the fact that it would be a major exercise and an expensive one, if achievable at all.

now about Indonesia, it was not that long ago that Indonesians were raging in the streets and shouting," Indonesia much people no land, Australia much land no people". At that time it was really serial do-da and a task that got me 6 weeks in a Jakarta jail.

At about the same time Indonesia invested in an instant Navy, 126 ships were delivered from the Russians ( in default at that time).
Add to that the purchase by Indonesia of a bunch of F18s ( i think it was F18s) as well as the factory to build then locally.
As well as Indonesia’s policy of swelling its militias ranks to the point of toping 2 millions under arms

The only missing peace of the hardware jigsaw was landing craft or the ability of getting there hardware onto Australian shores.

The proverbial sticky stuff hit the spinning round thing big time when the intell of Indonesia starting to build its own craft. A bit like a cut down and lower version of a LSD of ww2.

what wasn’t known was tactics" the where and when" but the how was rather easy to sussout.

There first objective would be the establishment of there beach head. either an occupied site or a barren site. barren sites well they have plenty of acreage to choose from, occupied well that’s basically broome or Darwin.
If it was to be an occupied site it would need to be of a size with an infrastructure to support 0.5 to 1 million troops and support, ( mainly water). an unoccupied site and every thing would have to be shipped over including water.
We could also assume that Indonesia would be able to form a Cap over there ever there beach head would be.

Stage one, they would need to form air superiority over there intended landing area. They have 2 tools to achieve this, 1 there own fighter aircraft. We needed some to match this hence the hornets, the F1-11 are out of there liege in this arena. 2nd interdiction by sabotage, an easy thing for this to happen in Australia mainly because the average Australian is just so un security aware.
The landing itself. its a bit hard to hide 100 or even 50 ships heading in the same direction, this is where the F1-11 would come into there own, Hopefully Australia had maintained air superiority by that time. along with the subs who we hope would have been shadowing the Indonesian fleet and it would be a safe assumption that the fleet would leave the northern shores of Indonesia and swing way out west if heading for broome or a quick trip around to the east if going for Darwin.

ok what the aussie pollies did, about the Russian navy cant do much, but the yanks had just cut a deal with Indonesia to sell then F18s, so what happened we got some f18s as well but wait there’s more a hole bunch of mothballed F1-11 seem to have found there way from and American desert to an aussie airstrip, all nice and shiny and with new power plants electronics etc.

i will save NZs role in all this for now.

So perhaps it is a real good thing that after Port Arthur, and many types of guns were banned, lots of Australians living in the Country farming areas we buying sewer pipes and end caps to bury their guns--as long as if we are ever invaded that they remember where they buried them.

[rick130]

I well remember mates in the ADF and Reserves training against the mythical 'Masuria' (sp?) from the north, a country whose tactics, troops, etc looked suspiciously like a near northern neighbour, but when we used to talk about it (and remember, they were all only grunts, RAEME's etc) we kept getting back to lines of supply.

IMO northern Australia just isn't doable for a full on invasion/occupation, it's pie in the sky, unless you are the Yanks.

[clean32]

IMO northern Australia just isn't doable for a full on invasion/occupation, it's pie in the sky, unless you are the Yanks.

Imagine 300 000 troops with logistics parked in and around broome, say 2/3 the way down to Perth, maybe even Perth? and 2/3 the way across to Darwin and ½ way in towards Alice. Also lets assume that the 2 air forces have extinguished themselves and its down to boots wheels and tracks.

What would happen next?

[rick130]

Bottom line, do the Indonesians have the capability/capacity for a long term occupation of a hostile environment and hostile inhabitants that far from home ?

I honestly have no idea but would guess not, so it's never concerned me. Harassing raids for political persuasion yes, full on occupation I juts can't see.

[clean32]

Bottom line, do the Indonesians have the capability/capacity for a long term occupation of a hostile environment and hostile inhabitants that far from home ?.

YES

and think about it, its not that far, if boat peaple can turn up in rotting old fishing boats powerd by 50 year old lister motors etc

hostile environment and hostile inhabitants?? enviroment thay can over come just like the aussies that live up that way but as for hostile inhabitants, aussies are getting fatter not faster LOL.





I honestly have no idea but would guess not, so it's never concerned me. Harassing raids for political persuasion yes, full on occupation I juts can't see.

um the worlds 4rd largest population vers Australia??

Or put it another way 3.5% of the worlds population vers 0.30% ( check the numbers its some thing like that)

[THE BOOGER]

The feds are not totally stupid they spent 100s of milions moving the army and airforce to the area where they were needed look at whats up north that might be attractive to indon worlds largest diamond mine largest alumina mine huge amounts of iron ore and very few people the whole population of the NT and north of WA is what 1 mil? as far as i know the sevices still train to oppose an insurgency from indon as our biggest threat it was the reason for Norforce and the Pilbara regt being formed. As a bomber the f111 still has no replacment or equal even the super hornets dont come close but with 2 ac carriers that we are calling LHDs we could come close.
yes Musria (spelling) is/was a mythical muslim nation to our north we were not allowed to call them indonesia:eek:

[clean32]

OK asked some questions to check on what I posted before.

Indonesia purchased 12 F16s and the factory to build them

A bit of the NZ thing. like the ADF and there FN-40s, what’s happened to RNZAFs A4s, well they are still there.

The A4 is a misunderstood aircraft, slower than a F1-11 and much smaller, it is a how ever little flying dump truck. but its biggest advantage is that its a hot little ship. now as NZ always had 1 squadron of A4s based in aussie and usually playing with the aussie navy. Why? when aussie has much more and faster aircraft. well simple the A4 is also the backbone of the Indonesian airforce, they have 33 of them. But like NZ they are now mothballed as well

any way we are talking about the past, Indonesia is no longer killing Chinese in the streets, that government has fallen, been replaced, arrested charged convicted and some executed.

[rick130]

The feds are not totally stupid they spent 100s of milions moving the army and airforce to the area where they were needed look at whats up north that might be attractive to indon worlds largest diamond mine largest alumina mine huge amounts of iron ore and very few people the whole population of the NT and north of WA is what 1 mil? as far as i know the sevices still train to oppose an insurgency from indon as our biggest threat it was the reason for Norforce and the Pilbara regt being formed. As a bomber the f111 still has no replacment or equal even the super hornets dont come close but with 2 ac carriers that we are calling LHDs we could come close.
yes Musria (spelling) is/was a mythical muslim nation to our north we were not allowed to call them indonesia:eek:

Regardless of a specific country, the bases were moved to where a threat will come from, as you said, that's just common sense. ;)

[Sprint]

any way we are talking about the past, Indonesia is no longer killing Chinese in the streets, that government has fallen, been replaced, arrested charged convicted and some executed.
that does little to ease my concerns.....

[rick130]

[snip]
any way we are talking about the past, Indonesia is no longer killing Chinese in the streets, that government has fallen, been replaced, arrested charged convicted and some executed.

except a lot of the old TNI dudes are still there, or in Politics....




now I'm sounding paranoid :D

Thanks for the discussion fella's

[DeanoH]

Interesting that a thread about a new Russian fighter plane ends up as an Indonesia vs. Australia debate.
Is this paranoia or credible ?
Just as a matter of interest, why would anyone want to go to the trouble and expense not to mention the logistical support nightmare of landing an invasion force in North Western Australia?
I would have thought a couple of container ships of troops and equipment landed in Melbourne and Sydney and perhaps Brisbane so that they don't get all huffy by being left out. Say, between Christmas and New Year when the whole country is either ****ed, hung over or on holliday would make a much more sensible invasion.
Once these have been taken its all over, the countrys economy and 80% of its population is now controlled by the invader who also by the way has control of the national media, very important if you're playing invasion. A quick trip up/down the Hume and the irrelevancy of the Canberra is also in the bag though its probably a ghost town at this time of year. The propaganda value alone makes Canberra a worthy gain for the invader.
And best of all. No major logistic issues, all the food, water, fuel, quartering and transport is laid on for any potential invader. The rest of the country wouldn't have a clue what was going on till well into the new year.
Could Indonesia achieve this if they wanted/could afford to ?
When Indonesias millitary outnumbers ours 100 to 1 each of our guys could kill 99 of theirs and we'd still lose. Australia wouldnt stand a chance.
I would say that Australia hasn't bought those last remaining squadrons of F-111 G's to hang outside local RSL's. They might have been made obsolete in the major players arsenals by cruise missiles and the such but are just the shot for Australias defence and I would guess that the G's are probably a lot more capable that the A versions bought in the sixtys.
More to the point is Indonesia the only potential threat Australia has ? What about India? a country with major population growth and nowhere to expand to. Islam to the West, mountains and China to the North and Chinas ally Burma to the East. Whats South, good old Australia and all the natural resources and space India hankers for including uranium. Lets not forget India has Nukes!, over 1 Billion people and would eat a third world s..t hole like Indonesia for breakfast.
Even better if you can create ill feeling, animosity and racial violence towards your country and its people to forment a crisis. Then you take the moral high ground and 'rescue' your downtroden citizens from the heathen and decadent uncaring racist Australians. Did I mention that India has Nukes ?

Anyway, sounds like a synopsis for a good Tom Clancy story.

Deano

[clean32]

Interesting that a thread about a new Russian fighter plane ends up as an Indonesia vs. Australia debate.
Is this paranoia or credible ?
Just as a matter of interest, why would anyone want to go to the trouble and expense not to mention the logistical support nightmare of landing an invasion force in North Western Australia?
I would have thought a couple of container ships of troops and equipment landed in Melbourne and Sydney and perhaps Brisbane so that they don't get all huffy by being left out. Say, between Christmas and New Year when the whole country is either ****ed, hung over or on holliday would make a much more sensible invasion.
Once these have been taken its all over, the countrys economy and 80% of its population is now controlled by the invader who also by the way has control of the national media, very important if you're playing invasion. A quick trip up/down the Hume and the irrelevancy of the Canberra is also in the bag though its probably a ghost town at this time of year. The propaganda value alone makes Canberra a worthy gain for the invader.
And best of all. No major logistic issues, all the food, water, fuel, quartering and transport is laid on for any potential invader. The rest of the country wouldn't have a clue what was going on till well into the new year.
Could Indonesia achieve this if they wanted/could afford to ?
When Indonesias millitary outnumbers ours 100 to 1 each of our guys could kill 99 of theirs and we'd still lose. Australia wouldnt stand a chance.
I would say that Australia hasn't bought those last remaining squadrons of F-111 G's to hang outside local RSL's. They might have been made obsolete in the major players arsenals by cruise missiles and the such but are just the shot for Australias defence and I would guess that the G's are probably a lot more capable that the A versions bought in the sixtys.
More to the point is Indonesia the only potential threat Australia has ? What about India? a country with major population growth and nowhere to expand to. Islam to the West, mountains and China to the North and Chinas ally Burma to the East. Whats South, good old Australia and all the natural resources and space India hankers for including uranium. Lets not forget India has Nukes!, over 1 Billion people and would eat a third world s..t hole like Indonesia for breakfast.
Even better if you can create ill feeling, animosity and racial violence towards your country and its people to forment a crisis. Then you take the moral high ground and 'rescue' your downtroden citizens from the heathen and decadent uncaring racist Australians. Did I mention that India has Nukes ?

Anyway, sounds like a synopsis for a good Tom Clancy story.

Deano

Well you have raised some good points. But look at it this way. There is a lot of Australian wealth in the west, and who wants the hassle of trying to control manage and be responsible for 80% of the population. I posted earlier on " what happens next". they get 1/2 of western Australia and 1/2 of NT should take about 6-8 weeks, minimal civilian casualties so no bad international press unlike hitting the eastern seaboard.

So beach head at broome, fan out grab some mines and some food producing land, a bit of rain forest which they can bulldoze and plant there palm trees or what ever. any way at about 2 months ( forget about the Yanks) a stalemate will happen, and 12 months latter some form of UN resolution would have passed and Australia would have shrunk. It wouldn’t have helped with the international press having a field day of publishing all the pictures of killed by aussie rednecks anyone who looked slightly Asian up and down the eastern seaboard etc which would put most Asian countries ( by popular local demand) behind the Indonesians.

NB the last batch of F1-11 uummm were freeeeeeee

India is way to busy with its own internal security, any branching out would invite there borders coming under threat. besides India is a long way away

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I have to say the F22 looks the business though :)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/656.jpg

[Redback]

I have to say the F22 looks the business though :)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/656.jpg

Yes isn't it lovely, looks like a butterfly:)
































Dare I say it, stings like a bee/hornet;)

Baz.

[VladTepes]

I have to say the F22 looks the business though :)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/656.jpg

Looks like a target.

[JohnF]

Well you have raised some good points. But look at it this way. There is a lot of Australian wealth in the west, and who wants the hassle of trying to control manage and be responsible for 80% of the population. I posted earlier on " what happens next". they get 1/2 of western Australia and 1/2 of NT should take about 6-8 weeks, minimal civilian casualties so no bad international press unlike hitting the eastern seaboard.

So beach head at broome, fan out grab some mines and some food producing land, a bit of rain forest which they can bulldoze and plant there palm trees or what ever. any way at about 2 months ( forget about the Yanks) a stalemate will happen, and 12 months latter some form of UN resolution would have passed and Australia would have shrunk. It wouldn’t have helped with the international press having a field day of publishing all the pictures of killed by aussie rednecks anyone who looked slightly Asian up and down the eastern seaboard etc which would put most Asian countries ( by popular local demand) behind the Indonesians.

NB the last batch of F1-11 uummm were freeeeeeee

India is way to busy with its own internal security, any branching out would invite there borders coming under threat. besides India is a long way away

India is not actually a long way away-- I get india trying to sell me something often, and those who buy a New Jag or LR will gert them from India

And India do have Aircraft Carriers if they ever wanted to invade Australia.

During the Second World War Japan & Germany was a long way from America, but Pearl Harbour happened.

So never do think that India is a long way away.

[minibloodhound]

If anyone invaded the North/West of Australia, they wouldn't have to worry about fighting us or the Americans.......the Chinese own it all, and would you want to upset them?

[ramblingboy42]

Well, the F-111's are buried now,we have newFA18 Super Hornets as well as the F models, our heavy lift capabilities are now supplemented by the awesome c-17's, a new fleet of 737 tankers, a new fleet of 737 awac type aircraft but far superior to anything overseas, the new J-27's are arriving soon to replace the Caribou and the F-35 program is well on track, deliveries being made right now to US Marines Corp, this aircraft having a total life program of possibly 50 yrs and although Australia deferred its delivery dates Lockheed-Martins programs are so ontime we will not have to wait any delays for this incredible aircraft to be delivered. Australian personnel are already being trained on the F-35's systems and maintenance programs and the crabs should all have big smiles on their faces.

[Ferret]

the F-35 program is well on track... we will not have to wait any delays for this incredible aircraft to be delivered.

What makes it incredible?

I keep reading negative stories in the press about its performance, production cost blow outs and schedule delays - the main reason we now have super hornets.

[ramblingboy42]

We have super hornets because the RAAF decided to prematurely end the F-111's service life which was scheduled to continue to 2020. New leadership in the air force...new boys want new toys. The FA18 Super Hornet was purchased to close the gap left by the demise of the F-111. This move was heavily critiscised by elder/senior airforce and ADF personnel. The F-35 programme is on track and Lockheed-Martin are delivering 5/month with upgraded delivery schedules as the factory improves its build times. The press have no idea what it takes to bring an aircraft like this from design concept to operational status and they love negative reporting.....did good news ever make a newspaper sell?

[VladTepes]

There's no way in the world that it could be argued ending the F1-11 service life was "premature". It was a 1950's designed aircraft and had already well exceeded service expectations. The fact that Australian politicians figured they could milk it out to 2020 does not reality make !

The F1-11 was designed for mission profiles entirely different to those that the RAAF fly, or are likely to fly, in 21st century conflicts.

You're right about the press though. A whole truckload of salt needed for most of what they print....