Petrol vs LPG payback calculator

[Junosi]

Hi, I made myself a little spreadsheet to calculate how many km's it will take me to pay back the cost of LPG installation. So thought I'd share it. I'm still trying to decide whether to install LPG or not - it'll take me about 55,000k's to pay back as of today and I don't do many k's in my P38 so it would take me many years to pay back I reckon:cool:

Go to the following to enter your own figures (costs etc) https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dGVWc2YwWjQ5TEJ6eHNoNDk2dGc3OGc6M A&theme=0AX42CRMsmRFbUy03NThiZTgyMi1iNWZiLTQ1ZTUtYmJ kZi00ZDMzODQ4NzA5YWI&ifq

it can take google a few mins to update the spreadsheet with your figures

or go to the following to see the results:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=teVsf0Z49LBzxsh496tg78g&single=true&gid=1&output=html

Edit: oops, had a little calc error, corrected now... you get that when a phone call interupts you mid formula

Regards, Clark

[Hoges]

Hi Clark
very useful :BigThumb: thank you.

I also have been through the yes/no/do i/don't I etc. There's also the added " cost of money" used to pay for the mod. ...i.e.interst etc over that time. what with the govt rebate decreasing/finishing and interest rates increasing...the paybak time will be further extended...
I've decided NO ...further, it's one less complication on a complication-prone relationship :eek::wasntme:
cheers
hoges

[Junosi]

Its a shame that the vapour injection installs cost so much :( Around $5000 is the cheapest quotes I'm getting so far from installers I should be able to trust. If they were a grand or so cheaper the payback period would be vastly reduced.

I'm tempted to go the basic impco mixer system route - which I had for many years on my 3.9 discovery and it was flawless on that vehicle. But as you say Hoges, 'it's one less complication on a complication-prone relationship' if I stick with petrol...

[adm333]

I bought my P38 with mixer type LPG already installed. I paid maybe 1K - 2K over the odds for the car with this in it.

I reckon with my city driving it does about 22 l / 100kms.

It has a 100 litre cylinder tank directly behind the rear seats, so cargo space is reduced. I have built a box surround for it which means it blends in aesthetically and you can load stuff on top of it.

Capacity is reduced but I have always managed to fit a lot of stuff in, much more than I first imagined.

The totally irrational thing that you can't capture in a spreadsheet is the massive phsycological difference it makes at the servo when you fill up your Rangie and spend $40 and not over $100.

Sure you do it more often, but not twice as much.

Plus on long trips I can fill up both and drive 900kms without stopping for for fuel.

Dave

[81stubee]

Plus on long trips I can fill up both and drive 900kms without stopping for for fuel.

:( I remember being able to do that in my Tdi Disco, and that was with the standard tank.

[Junosi]

The totally irrational thing that you can't capture in a spreadsheet is the massive phsycological difference it makes at the servo when you fill up your Rangie and spend $40 and not over $100.

Totally agree, I remember the feeling very well from my Discovery days - big smile every time I filled up :D I'm still thinking seriously of doing a mixer type system - do you have any of the reported problems with it Dave ? Backfires, overheating etc

[Aussie]

The totally irrational thing that you can't capture in a spreadsheet is the massive phsycological difference it makes at the servo when you fill up your Rangie

I have a similar irrational feeling when I drive past toyboata or pootrol drivers. I had a diesel pootrol attempt too stop me merging in an overtaking lane at 100Km/h I saw this little puff of black smoke in my rear view mirror as he tried too speed up too pass me. hahaha poor sod had no hope. He did get his own back though, he passed me as I was refilling at the shell 120K's down the road..LOL Then when I caught him up I waited till the next passing lane and glided past him with ZZtop banging flat out. How shallow am I...LOL *sigh* I seem to see these tools all too often in my daily commute. One thing thats gets em everytime is the quiet rumble of the 4.6

[bee utey]

Totally agree, I remember the feeling very well from my Discovery days - big smile every time I filled up :D I'm still thinking seriously of doing a mixer type system - do you have any of the reported problems with it Dave ? Backfires, overheating etc

I don't have many troubles fitting the pre '99 P38A's with mixer type gas systems, it's all down to plugs, leads etc. I also recommend fitting a cylinder type aircleaner off an '87 EFI, so if it does backfire you still have an aircleaner.

However I have done one of these with LPG injection, it's achievable to install for around $4000 using a second hand donut tank from a VT - VZ Commodore wagon when available. This doesn't include credit for any gov't rebate you are currently eligible for.

I posted up some "lpg pics" last year if you want to see what's possible.

[Junosi]

Does anyone know if parts bought from overseas are covered by the LPG scheme ? I know used parts are allowed but unsure about overseas parts.

Those Marelli Vapour injection DIY kits are suddenly looking very attractive at $1000. Would just need the tank side of things then

[bee utey]

Does anyone know if parts bought from overseas are covered by the LPG scheme ? I know used parts are allowed but unsure about overseas parts.

Those Marelli Vapour injection DIY kits are suddenly looking very attractive at $1000. Would just need the tank side of things then

LPG rebates are available if you show 1. proof of payment of parts, 2. proof of payment of licenced labour to fit it. So you need to find a helpful LPG fitter. He has to see that the parts meet Australian Standard AS1425. Check with the overseas supplier if they can provide certification.

For more info: visit AusIndustry (http://www.ausindustry.gov.au)

[Gullible]

Hi, I made myself a little spreadsheet to calculate how many km's it will take me to pay back the cost of LPG installation. So thought I'd share it. I'm still trying to decide whether to install LPG or not - it'll take me about 55,000k's to pay back as of today and I don't do many k's in my P38 so it would take me many years to pay back I reckon:cool:

Go to the following to enter your own figures (costs etc)
Regards, Clark

Or you could use the one on the LPG Australia website

LPG Autogas Australia (http://www.lpgautogas.com.au/)

If you want to have fun with your LPG contact Australian LPG Warehouse and
find out where your nearest liquid injection fitter is. Same cheap fuel no loss of power.

Australian LPG Warehouse - Systems (http://www.australianlpgwarehouse.com.au/Products/Systems/JTG-Liquid-Injection.aspx)



Ah, a P38 on liquid gas, my dream car

[Junosi]

Or you could use the one on the LPG Australia website

Mines better :) Their one is useless - and is only a very basic 'savings' calculator. It doesn't take the fuel consumption difference between lpg and petrol into account nor does it ask what your installation cost was. I'd much rather see how many actual km's I'm going to have to travel for pay back than base anything on a 'weekly spend' amount.

Liquid injection would be fun though ...

[Gullible]

I think the main think about gas is getting the set up you want even tho it will cost more than you want to pay.

My installer talked me out of a doughnut tank because he said it would cost too much, when really he could not be bothered to make up the brackets. A decision I regret every time I load up the car:(

Hang on until you find someone who will do the 135ltrs for you.

[bee utey]

Donut tank fitting list: blue lpg auto tanks (http://www.bluelpg.com.au) lists a 68 litre usable donut for the P38A and looks like a 15 minute job to mount with bottom studs.

[Junosi]

Donut tank fitting list: blue lpg auto tanks (http://www.bluelpg.com.au) lists a 68 litre usable donut for the P38A and looks like a 15 minute job to mount with bottom studs.

Called them (bluelpg) yesterday to get a price on that tank. $750 was his reply and they've got lots of them in stock, they're in Melbourne also. As a comparison buying an eBay one from RPI is $760 for a claimed 76litre donut - or $1200 for their proprietary 135litre(water) twin scuba (90l+45l) setup that requires the spare tyre well to be completely removed. Don't know what postage on such a large heavy item would be though ....

Got an answer email back from Ausindustry also - overseas parts are eligible for the grant as long as you have a proper business receipt and they meet australian standards. So the Marrelli $1000 vapour injection system is looking better and better

[bee utey]

I can't imagine how you would fit a 135 litre twin tank. I'd love to see a picture. Mind you if you want a cheap tank you could always tub the floor of the spare wheel well and fit a standard APA A90 tank (72L usable), you can get a cheap second hand reco tank for as little as $220. I have done two of these and they don't actually look that bad, the underhang is not more than 100mm.

How good is the parts back-up on the Marelli kit? I just had an injector fail on an Impco/BRC kit and it has to go away for a week for warranty exchange...

[Junosi]

How good is the parts back-up on the Marelli kit? I just had an injector fail on an Impco/BRC kit and it has to go away for a week for warranty exchange...

I'm conversing with them via email at the moment. Any problem is going to take a while to rectify via UK though =/ Always a problem buying overseas stuff.

As to the twin tank 135 litre install - its an RPI engineering install. They use a 90l fat tank and a 45l skinny tank - the skinny tank sits on the rear cross member with the fatter tank in front of it. They've got limited info on it at their website RPi Engineering - Specialized Rover Engines - faqs (http://www.v8engines.com/faq-lpg-Gems-twin-tanks.htm)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1480.jpg

I've wondered why I've never seen a big fat scuba in a cut away wheel well myself - as you suggested. I figured there must be a reason, but I don't know what it is. Maybe the RPI 90l one is as big as you can go already without interferance on the rear cross member (or maybe it already is an A90 ?).

I've asked these guys for a quote too About Conformable Tanks-Propane Performance Industries -Cutting Edge Technology in Propane Gas Tanks (http://www.propaneperformance.com/propanep/about-conformable-tanks.html) Their tanks look really interesting and for any given space their tanks provide the most usable volume.

[p38arover]

I had a vapour system on my P38A with a 90 litre (WC) tank behind the seat. I fitted a canister air cleaner - see 4.0/4.6/P38A Air Box Replacement (http://rangerovers.net/rrupgrades/airbox/index.html)

I pulled this out a few years ago (I must sell the vapour system...) and fitted a KME sequential injection system with a 54 litre (usable) toroidal tank in the wheel well (to get the load space back). I have a Kaymar rear bar and wheel carrier. Oh, since changing to sequential, I've reverted to the original air filter.

Eventually, I think I'll pull the toroidal tank, cut the wheel well out, and fit a couple of cylindrical tanks for more capacity. I'm sick of the limited range of 54 litres.

[bee utey]

That makes sense now with the picture, looks like an A90 up front and a 900/240 over the back bar. Its actually only 108 litres usable. I can't see how they get the tyre well airtight though, there are naked gas fittings everywhere. It's only a carpet covered hatch normally and you need tool-free access to the tanks for servicing and emergencies. And they painted the tanks black, my tank tester wouldn't touch them with a 4 foot pole like that, says its illegal!

Just linked to the RPI site, saw their cover. How do you access the tanks for servicing? I think I should follow this one up.

Like Ron I use a canister type air cleaner for vapour systems, the earlier '87 one usually. But the original air box is much better with injection or snorkel conversions.

Like the conformable tank, just would be a hassle getting it approved in Oz to AS 1425.

BTW I dislike the term scuba tank as applied to LPG, I suspect it's no-tech-speak for skinny-lookin-things. Manifold tank is what welded-together collections of cylinders are known as in the trade. Popular in Fords.

[Junosi]

I can't see how they get the tyre well airtight though, there are naked gas fittings everywhere. It's only a carpet covered hatch normally

Like the conformable tank, just would be a hassle getting it approved in Oz to AS 1425.

Their 'kit' comes with a stainless steel cover that goes over the whole area, making all the gas components 'external'. Which is then covered by the standard P38 well cover.

The conformable tank guys have an Australian distributor, so they should already be approved. Looking forward to see what their price is.

[Gullible]

Dam I must learn too type faster.

I was going to say, whoever gets the licence to distribute the conformable tanks will make a lot of money. I'll swap my 60ltr 3 bulky manifold tanks for a flatter tank that weighs less and gives be a larger volume.

[big guy]

Hey there- this sounds like Jilden- An LPG fitter I would definately trust with my car.
Done 2 of mine so far and never really had any probs.

Good to see you on here now.

Regards

Frank:):):)

[Junosi]

Just linked to the RPI site, saw their cover. How do you access the tanks for servicing? I think I should follow this one up.

Only reference I saw about that was that the false floor is 'sealed and then screwed down' So for servicing unscrewing and unsealing :)

Pity you're not in Melbourne or I in Adelaide, I need to find myself a helpful fitter now.

[bee utey]

Only reference I saw about that was that the false floor is 'sealed and then screwed down' So for servicing unscrewing and unsealing

According to the gas fitters' bible AS1425, clause 3.18.2., "It shall be possible to operate the service valve for the purpose of servicing, or a filler shut-off valve if fitted, in the installed position" or if from inside, (b) ...."access shall be by a gastight captive hatch which can be opened without tools"

Betcha can't do it on this setup, unless you cut a hinged hatch in the middle with a wingnut latch or something. Quite easy to fix.

[Gullible]

Wouldn't it be the same as any underslung tank, reach your hand up from under the vehicle and turn off the valve?

No more difficult in an emergency than pulling all the luggage out off the boot to get to the wheel well mounted tank.

[3toes]

I looked at this set up to extend the range on mine without putting a tank in the boot and reducing cargo space. With the twin tank set up from RPI you are also up for a new rear exhaust as the factory standard pipe will not go around the new twin tanks. They sell a stainless one of their own design on the web site. Also they have not managed to sort a gauge to measure the amount of gas in the twin tanks so you are dependant on watching the distance traveled.

[bee utey]

I looked at this set up to extend the range on mine without putting a tank in the boot and reducing cargo space. With the twin tank set up from RPI you are also up for a new rear exhaust as the factory standard pipe will not go around the new twin tanks. They sell a stainless one of their own design on the web site. Also they have not managed to sort a gauge to measure the amount of gas in the twin tanks so you are dependant on watching the distance traveled.

Twin tanks should be able to have their sender units wired in series if they use australian made valving. There are a large number of different senders available. Otherwise it used to be common to connect the large tank sender only, gives you the best guess.

As far as access to tank valves is concerned, I can't think how you would get your hands above the tanks from underneath.as there are chassis rails all the way around the well. On Falcon dedicated gas cars they actually put the shut off valve near the bottom of a pair of welded-together tanks, then it's easy. Maybe someone should talk to APA to see if they would modify one for the P38...

[996TURBO]

Guys, i'm thinking about making myself same setup as RPI.
Already sourced the same tanks and parts but i need to think about tank frame.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

this should draw out the rattlers,,,:p

https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dGVWc2YwWjQ5TEJ6eHNoNDk2dGc3OGc6M A&theme=0AX42CRMsmRFbUy03NThiZTgyMi1iNWZiLTQ1ZTUtYmJ kZi00ZDMzODQ4NzA5YWI&ifq

[ozscott]

I love the cost savings on LPG. However it depends how far you go with maintenance too. I have had mine on for about 6 years now and it has paid for itself well and truly on my 180,000K D2. However the LPG we get is rubbish and only a month or 2 after I got me new converter fitted from contamination in the old one (which was fitted from contamination in the old one...) it got...contaminated. You know because it wont changeover to LPG when cold - it requires hot water circulating through the converter to make the contaminant less sticky so the diaphragms and valves work. When hot switch over from petrol is fine. I just pulled the bottom plug again and it was half full of contaminant. Cleaned out the plug, but I know the converter is full of it. I had put an expensive little inline thermostat on it too to stop the contaminant caused by secondary cracking (I have posted a link up to a US site about this before). Anyway, because it stopped my heater matrix from getting very hot and because it does not seem to have worked it will come off now.

I dont mind living with the converter as is, but if you had to replace it every time it got contaminated you would quickly erode the costs savings.

Cheers

PS. I have a BP card and a Shell Card - and they are all I use. And I have tried only Shell and only BP..

[Barney2803]

VEEEEEERY interesting figures.

[p38arover]

My figures don't appear on that spreadsheet. Did yours?


I dont mind living with the converter as is, but if you had to replace it every time it got contaminated you would quickly erode the costs savings.


Why not pull it apart and clean it? I did that once on my previous LPG install.

[ozscott]

I dont want to do it myself mate. I do a lot of things myself, but wont mess with the converter. Out of interest though what solvent did you use to clean yours without distroying or causing shorter life of the diaphragms?

CHEERS

[bee utey]

I dont want to do it myself mate. I do a lot of things myself, but wont mess with the converter. Out of interest though what solvent did you use to clean yours without distroying or causing shorter life of the diaphragms?

CHEERS

Carby and throttle body cleaner will shift most LPG deposits. Careful though it stinks something shocking and you should use gloves. In one case of repeated contamination I made a hose adaptor and poured the carby cleaner into the gas inlet, reconnected the LPG line and then ran the converter. Seemed to help.

Ordinary degreaser will dissolve only the softer deposits. I use both when cleaning out converters. Neither attacks rubber to any degree.

[p38arover]

I dont want to do it myself mate. I do a lot of things myself, but wont mess with the converter. Out of interest though what solvent did you use to clean yours without distroying or causing shorter life of the diaphragms?

CHEERS

I used carby cleaner. Bee Utey would be the best man to ask as to what to use.

I've had no problems working on converters - but I've only worked on three. :)

I've replaced diaphragms twice in this Rangie - one on the previous venturi system LPG install and one on the the present injected install. The latter was whilst looking for a fault that turned out to be a MAP sensor that was temperature sensitive. I'd already replaced the sensor to no avail. The replacement sensor had the same fault. :( Only I could buy a replacement that was faulty (see my faulty goods thread).

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

A lot of the figures are the same as the example figures ;). I bet just like me, a few just stuck in the figures expecting to get a readout at the end.... :Thump:

Using Capitals, the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse or helping your uncle jack off a horse...

[ozscott]

Thanks Gents - Beeutey - funny you should say that cause I used carby cleaner to clean my intake runner and throttle body yesterday. I also used CRC Maf clean to clean the MAF cause the breather line from the head to the intake on the air box was sucking engine oil vapour into the MAF - nice. I understood that the breather was for LPG vapours. I think I will just put an inline air filter in the breather pipe for the engine and block off the hole in the air box intake.

I will try the carb cleaner in the LPG intake trick - I take it its a case of spraying a heap of it in and then the intake pipe straight back on and tightened and start her up, letting the venturi action draw through and burn all the crap? I will have to warm it up before spraying of course.

Cheers

[pfillery]

Payback time for mine is 13 weeks all worked out without any calculator needed!

I've had mine in for just on 3 months now and it has almost reached break even point. Used to cost $100 a week in petrol, now costs $40 a week for gas travelling the same distance, $60 a week saved x 12 weeks = $720, cost after rebate was $760. Mind you I'm doing 450km a week with half of that highway albeit at 80km/h (because we all know that your brain will implode if you go faster than that in an S3)

[Fluids]

this should draw out the rattlers,,,:p

https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dGVWc2YwWjQ5TEJ6eHNoNDk2dGc3OGc6M A&theme=0AX42CRMsmRFbUy03NThiZTgyMi1iNWZiLTQ1ZTUtYmJ kZi00ZDMzODQ4NzA5YWI&ifq

Well, it would if the spreadsheet actually worked ! :angel: The reults it returns are not drived from the info entered.

So .... ;)

I've attached a spreadsheet that will allow you to do a quick comparison between Petrol, LPG & Diesel for average PA (per anum) costs ... you can figure the payback period ;)

... you can see that even though the diesel is marginally more per year to run, the range per fill is more than double ... Where's that LPG bowser in the middle of the Simpson ? :p

I reckon the LPG payback time, dependant on the rebate you get, may only be 2-3 years (assuming a D2 V8) ... however, converting a V8 D2 to LPG versus just buying a Diesel is going to be 10+ years before you are in a payback situation :( ... do V8's last that long in a D2 ? ;)

Caveat - figures used in the spreadsheet are fuel prices as at today at my local BP - Mileages used are as best as I can remeber.

... back to you :)

[bee utey]

Thanks Gents - Beeutey - funny you should say that cause I used carby cleaner to clean my intake runner and throttle body yesterday. I also used CRC Maf clean to clean the MAF cause the breather line from the head to the intake on the air box was sucking engine oil vapour into the MAF - nice. I understood that the breather was for LPG vapours. I think I will just put an inline air filter in the breather pipe for the engine and block off the hole in the air box intake.

I will try the carb cleaner in the LPG intake trick - I take it its a case of spraying a heap of it in and then the intake pipe straight back on and tightened and start her up, letting the venturi action draw through and burn all the crap? I will have to warm it up before spraying of course.

Cheers

The important thing about getting tb cleaner in is to depressurise the converter first. Run the engine warm, leave it idling, then disconnect the wire to the main gas lock in the gas feed pipe and let it stall. The pipe will be empty and the gas converter will have its first stage regulator seat open. Make an adaptor to inject tb cleaner with the little tube that most spray cans come with. Clear vinyl tube and a grommet say. When you have got some in reconnect the feed line and gas lock wire, restart on petrol, flick over at revs and flush the cleaner through.

You can also spray cleaner into the gas outlet fitting then remove the drain plug. This helps clean out the main chamber.

BTW what converter type is yours? Many converters have only philips head screws on the low pressure side because servicing is a regular procedure. The electric valve on most is also easily removed and dismantled for cleaning.

As for breathers, most fitters don't understand the purpose of the relocation. It is supposed to prevent combustible gas-air mixture being drawn into the rocker cover (=BOOM!). On most LR engines (D1's especially) the breather always delivers fumes out so should be left on the throttle body port where the manufacturer had it. In any case it should always be downstream of the MAF.

[ozscott]

Thanks mate. Very much appreciated. It's a Landi Renzo LCS-2 system. Cheers.

[p38arover]

Thanks mate. Very much appreciated. It's a Landi Renzo LCS-2 system. Cheers.

This must be you on the LPG forum (I'm also on there): LPG Discussion Forum • View topic - LANDI RENZO LCS/2 SYSTEM BACKFIRES AT TIMES ONLY ON TAKE OFF (http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7859)

[ozscott]

That was me Ron. It's a very good system now that I closed the plug gaps up - thanks again Beeutey. It had a backfire recently but I think that was because the Maf was coated in oil and it had a miss on Petrol too till I cleaned it. Interestingly it also made it run hotter especially at idle. Cool now it's clean. Cheers

[Pedro_The_Swift]

this should draw out the rattlers,,,:p

https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dGVWc2YwWjQ5TEJ6eHNoNDk2dGc3OGc6M A&theme=0AX42CRMsmRFbUy03NThiZTgyMi1iNWZiLTQ1ZTUtYmJ kZi00ZDMzODQ4NzA5YWI&ifq


Well, it would if the spreadsheet actually worked ! :angel: The reults it returns are not drived from the info entered.

So .... ;)

I've attached a spreadsheet that will allow you to do a quick comparison between Petrol, LPG & Diesel for average PA (per anum) costs ... you can figure the payback period ;)

... you can see that even though the diesel is marginally more per year to run, the range per fill is more than double ... Where's that LPG bowser in the middle of the Simpson ? :p

I reckon the LPG payback time, dependant on the rebate you get, may only be 2-3 years (assuming a D2 V8) ... however, converting a V8 D2 to LPG versus just buying a Diesel is going to be 10+ years before you are in a payback situation :( ... do V8's last that long in a D2 ? ;)

Caveat - figures used in the spreadsheet are fuel prices as at today at my local BP - Mileages used are as best as I can remeber.

... back to you :)



Strike!

oh and its a beauty!!
;):p

[ozscott]

Come in spinner!

There is no doubt in Brisbane that the cheapest to run is the LPG. Sure there are arguments about country areas etc all well and good (dont go into longevity of V8's though and cost of re-conditioning versus a diesel, cause its not a fight that I reckon diesel advocates can really win:D). But setting that stuff aside, LPG V8's are cheaper to run. Which is what the thread was about.

Cheers

[Fluids]

Strike!

oh and its a beauty!!
;):p


We aim to please ! :p

... and don't get me wrong, I have nothing against v8's ... ultimatley for us, range was the deciding factor between V8 & diesel ... which the V8 on LPG didn't have.

... and yes a V8 on LPG is cheaper to run than a diesel (D2) .... There, I said it ! :o :o :D

And pfillery's post is an eye opener ... when the cost of conversion is way cheaper (SIII) than say the cost of a V8 D2, LPG is a no brainer. Pretty impressive payback period!

[pfillery]

They used to tell you 18 months to breeak even on a gas system but that was before the rebate. Plus I bought a secondhand in date tank which cut about $600 off the price, so even with the upgrade to HD flexible gas lines instead of copper ones, price was still very reasonable. I alos do 450km a week which is more than what the average series 3 probably does so it will naturally take less time for the savings to stack up.

I suppose if you care to look at it that way, my gas system is actually making me a profit now of $240 or so a month, not often that a car can make you money. Maybe I should install another one. Hmmmmm:D

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Maybe I should install another one. Hmmmmm:D

and put a hyclone on it;):p

[p38arover]

I'd like a dual tank set up like the Rpi one, too. My current 54 litres (usable) isn't enough.