Is it a lemon? Or the "character" of a defender?

[alittlebitconcerned]

Hi all.
I wish my first post could be a happier one but I'm a little disgruntled to say the least. I bought an 08 puma with 30k on the clock and have had it now for two weeks.

In this time it has been in the shop twice and is about to go in for the the third time in one week.
Initially it was for a major service but in addition I wanted it looked at as the engine light was coming on. The engine light was apparently a mis-calibration(?) with the computer. Well, it has been reset twice now and no sooner do I drive it away than the light comes back on. The service record from the previous owner shows the same problem was investigated and apparently fixed. Same diagnosis.
As to the service, they left all their crap in my car, charged me $20 for a $3 remote battery and left it in my centre console for me to fit.
Part of the work done was a recall issue to do with the handbreak which they said they fixed; I now cannot use the handbreak as it simply does not work.
I had to waited 1.5 hours to receive my car after being told it was ready to go. The entire time it was parked 5mtrs from me but they for god knows what reason they were unable to give me the papers from the service and the work done. I left ****ed off and have only received them in the mail today a week later.
On the highway on the weekend I suddenly lost all power until I change down a gear. Mentioned it to LR. Got a shrug.
Third gear is a struggle at times to get into. Seems to resist and catch on the flywheel.
Yesterday I switched on my aircon (has worked fine for all other days I have owned it) and by the end of my half hour trip the passenger side floor had flooded with water.
Today I went to open my drivers side door and the handle came off!!!
This is absolutely unbelievable to me. I keep looking for the film crew to jump out from behind some bushes.
I have never come across such poor build quality in a new car. Is this car a lemon?

[Drover]

Wow, that is a bad run.

What dealer are you taking it to ? I have got a '08, it has just 10,000k's and I am about to book it in for a service. I think I need to avoid your dealer.

In the past I have used Alto's at Artarmon, when I had my Disco 3. Never had a problem with them.

I have got a couple of warranty issues for them but they are limited to the sub woofer not working and the rear seat release being stiff.

Defender’s are normally very reliable in my experience, that why I got rid of the Disco 3 and I haven’t been disappointed yet.

Stick with it, once you get it sorted you will enjoy it to no end

Cheers

[Pedro_depacas]

Doesn't sound too good, thats for sure. definately need a new service centre.
Drover if you dont mind me asking what about the D3 made you get rid of it? (you can PM me mate. dont wanna hijak the thread)

[crump]

A lemon? No way, sounds like you got a good one!:D Seems more of a dealer/workshop problem than the vehicle itself.

[dmdigital]

No it is not normal! I have over 41,000km on a 2008 Defender and nothing resembling anything like your problems. Any issues I have had have been resolved in a satisfactory manner.

[Sleepy]

I would:


contact Land Rover Australia with a list of your issues. (Don't moan, groan or threaten, just dot point your issues and ask their opinion.)
write a letter to the manager of the Land Rover dealer you are dealing with.
keep a record of everything.
demand a loan car whilst yours is off the road.

I am in Melbourne and I have had Land Rover fix even the most minor of issues - they may grumble but they'll do it if you persist.
Your items can and should be fixed
All my Land Rovers have given me some grief but everything is fixable. One member here had a new motor fitted.
Once you get your items sorted you'll love it.

[**Discovery300Tdi**]

G'day mate,

Sorry to hear about your troubles with your defer. I myself dont own one (Wish i did) but i have a D1 300Tdi and i too know what your going through TRUST ME!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure if sleepy was reffering to myself but i had to get a full engine rebuild and replace the injector pump and alot of other good and expensive stuff BUT in the end while she not running how i want it (Soon will be) i am one happy camper with it. Guess you just have to persist with it and get her fixed and once it's done you'll love it to bits. Follow what sleepy has said and in one way or another they HAVE TO fix the problems. Wish ya luck mate and dont give her up cause from what i have heared they are a bloody great rig.

[Sleepy]

Not sure if sleepy was reffering to myself

Actually I was thinking of dullbird. Your wouldn't have been a warranty issue, would it?


I forgot to say:

Welcome to the forum alittlebitconcerned, let's hope you can change your name to contentedlandyowner soon. :)

[**Discovery300Tdi**]

Actually I was thinking of dullbird. Your wouldn't have been a warranty issue, would it?


I forgot to say:

Welcome to the forum alittlebitconcerned, let's hope you can change your name to contentedlandyowner soon. :)

No it wasnt a warrantly issue, thats coOL noooo prob's.

JUST DONT GIVE UP MATE!!!!

[Mick_Marsh]

alittlebitconcerned,
Funny thing, I've just heard the same story today from a work colleague. Different problems and different car though. His car is a Mercedes ML class and the dealer was Mercedes of course. His solution, go to a different dealer/mechanic.
Late last year I had problems with a Mercedes specialist who did a substandard job on my old classic Mercedes and made the car very unreliable. I switched mechanics for that vehicle and, hey presto, it's a good goer.
I can go on and on with similar stories on holdens and landrovers as well but I think you get the picture.
With cars, they are mechanical, they don't have moods or feelings. There is no such thing as a lemon, it's just a poorly treated or poorly maintained car. If a part is faulty, you replace it or live with the fault. If to you mechanical things are a dark art, and the problems aren't getting fixed, change mechanics.
Also, think of it from the mechanics point of view, sometimes a fault may appear to be fixed but isn't. Give him a chance to work it through. Let him know you're not happy.
In your case though, you were treated poorly. Move on. Get another mechanic. I'm sure you will get many recommendations from this website (if you use the right title for your post.)

I hope this helps
regards
Mick

[scott oz]

I persisted with LR on my TD5 2001 and over an 18 month two year period had the head replaced the injectors seals twice and finally the injectors changed. Oh and the gear box done.

Takes time. By the end of the warranty I was on first name basis with the head mechanic.

Just persistence, document it all

[Tusker]

My experience with warranty claims is that the major Sydney LR dealers are chalk & cheese. I had roof leaks, & then a noisy 5th gear. Not a huge list.

As to the crook dealer: Incompetence, lying to me, lying to LandRover when they stuffed up the first repair, attempting to charge for warranty matters, return with interior ripped out, return with door full of water, return with flat battery. 5th gear rebuild that needed rebuilding 12 months later. I have in writing two completely difference excuses why the leaks wouldn't be fixed. And so on.

Maybe pm me & I'll steer you towards the better dealer.

Regards
Max P

[spudboy]

That's not good enough, and I'd be escalating it up the chain until I got someone with enough authority to kick the service people into line.

I've got an '07 110 and am waiting on a new diff from the UK as the old one make a dreadful noise above 100Km/h. It has been 5 or 6 weeks wait now, but the LR dealer has kept me informed (the delay is in the UK) which makes all the difference.

Perhaps you'll end up at another dealer (if that is an option).

Sorry you've had such a bad introduction to LR.

[slt]

My experience is that the dealers are no longer interested in you once you part with your hard-earned cash. And neither is Land Rover (Aust.) interested in a good reputation!

Strong words? Maybe. But I'm trying to get them to address an annoying noise/vibration issue since last October and they have failed miserably so far in even trying to identify it. I've had 4 different answers from 3 different shops, and they finally blamed my aftermarket accessories to get rid of me! Very shortsighted of them, since anyone talking to me about my truck these days won't be interested in buying a Land Rover...

So yes, welcome to that 'character'!

[alittlebitconcerned]

Thanks to all for the condolences and kind words of support.
For many of you to understand my frustration and then go on to say that it is all worth it once the issues have been sorted does give me a second wind and a glimmer of hope.
Adding to my increasingly comical situation; I opened the passenger side door today and the door seal fell on to the passenger seat; that was after it took three attempts to unlock the passenger door with my remote (opened the drivers side fine). It also rained in Sydney today and I discovered that water is channeled into my cab via the top edge of drivers side door seal in such an impressive way that I feel like donating the car to the engineers of Warragamba dam for research and development.
I attempted to contact the service manager at LR to add these thing to the list of repairs they will attempting next week. I rang and left three messages and sent an email without response. As appalling a service as this is to me I will give them ONE more chance before I name and shame here. I will also take advice given here by not becoming too aggressive with them and keep all records of contact and go above the manager I am dealing with should my problems not be resolved. One minor win was that I did get myself a courtesy car.
I will stay the course for a week or two more and then decide whether I still have the energy to join this friendly club. Until that time I will have to keep my name.
Thanks again.

[dullbird]

sorry mate naming and shaming is not permitted on this site...

As frustrating as it can be, it puts the owner of this site at risk.

[dmdigital]

The top front door seals are an age old problem on the Defenders. They droop and water gets in. You can try crimping them a bit tighter to keep them up but if they are really loose then I'd be looking at a warranty replacement. My rear driver's side door was done for that reason (lower part of seal). Both my front doors do work loose to a degree, but then they are not any worse than my 11 year old Tdi Defender.

One other thing you will encounter which I don't believe any Defender owner has successfully fixed is the rear door windows will rattle open slightly over time and need winding up. They will drop up to a couple of cm's if not checked.

At the end of the day there is still the joy of driving a Defender. Enjoy that part at least.:)

[dullbird]

The top front door seals are an age old problem on the Defenders. They droop and water gets in. You can try crimping them a bit tighter to keep them up but if they are really loose then I'd be looking at a warranty replacement. My rear driver's side door was done for that reason (lower part of seal). Both my front doors do work loose to a degree, but then they are not any worse than my 11 year old Tdi Defender.

One other thing you will encounter which I don't believe any Defender owner has successfully fixed is the rear door windows will rattle open slightly over time and need winding up. They will drop up to a couple of cm's if not checked.

At the end of the day there is still the joy of driving a Defender. Enjoy that part at least.:)


we have had two passenger door seals and they both droop;)...sikaflex is your friend.

as for the rear windows it has been suggested you change the handles around apparently this stops this....

[MacFamily]

we have had two passenger door seals and they both droop;)...sikaflex is your friend.

as for the rear windows it has been suggested you change the handles around apparently this stops this....


X2 for sikaflex, when I put new door seals on the old Tdi last year I also sikaflex them all on and have not fallen or leaked yet 6 months on.But you shouldn't have to do this with a new car under warranty, but stick with it and hope they fix all the problems mate.

We have owned our defender for nearly 3yrs 94 tdi and we have never had a problem with the rear door windows rattling open slightly, even over corrugated roads but maybe the previous owner fixed it.

[slt]

alittlebitconcerned, whilst many of these vehicles have their problems, yours seems a specially hard case. Have you bought it privately or through a dealer? If this was through a dealer I'd take it back, as it's clearly not in proper working order.

NSW Government Fair Trading have a lot of advice and guidelines as pertaining to motor vehicles:

Motor vehicles - NSW Office of Fair Trading (http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Consumers/Motor_vehicles.html)

[dmdigital]

as for the rear windows it has been suggested you change the handles around apparently this stops this....
Tried that and again and again and.... oh well it's a Defender thing.

[spudfan]

Tried that and again and again and.... oh well it's a Defender thing.

Agree wholeheartedly. I have been told that if you can remove and refit the handles in the 9 o clock position it will help this. The reason being that the handle has to travel upwards before the window moves. Have not tried it yet, besides I always check them as the two younger members of the family have a habit of opening them and not closing them all the way.
Regarding the bad luck with the Puma, I found that owing to high charges many main dealers do not get much hands on work with vehicles and just do servicing work. A lot of them would be at a loss to rebuild a gearbox (correctly) as no-one will get it done there owing to the expensive rates charged. Independents generally get a lot more hands on time with Land Rovers, stripping and rebuilding etc. As the Puma is under warranty this route is not an option. You can persevere and be a nuisance. They do not take kindly to you standing on the footpath outside their premises telling potential customers your tale of woe regarding how they failed to rectify your Puma.
There must be some dealer that people on this site have used who knows their stuff. Your Puma has the potential to be a fine vehicle. From what you say a lot of the trouble can be cured by time and physical labour. The engine seems to be an engine management thing.
A lot of people on this site (dm_td5 included) go places and do things in their vehicles us lesser mortals only dream off. This demands faith in the vehicle and no doubt a little mechanical knowledge. The Puma is basically a sound unit but let down by bad quality in the construction of some bought in preassembled components and some sloppy assembly work.
Hope you get sorted and get the enjoyment that this vehicle is capable of giving.

[BilboBoggles]

RE the EML, Have a look under your driver side rear wheel box. Is there a black plastic tube in the shape of a hook just free floating in mid air loosley taped to the fuel lines? The O9MY PUMA's have their breather located in this position. I found on mine that in wet weather it sucked in water into the fuel tank. A lot of water, and enough to damage the fuel system. The EML was in my case caused by this water. Land Rover relocated the breather with a pipe extension, and I get the fuel filter checked every 5000k's. It's not had any water in the fuel since.

When I bought my first Defender , a TD5 many years ago, I took it back to the local dealer nearly 10 times for water leaks. In the process of fixing these leaks, they broke vent flap hinges, dented wings, etc. (Some of those 10 times were to fix prior damage...). It was off the road for nearly 6 months in the first year I had it!! In the end I drove to the main dealer in the city. 1 Visit, and they booked it into a Land Rover panel shop for a strip and rebuild. No more water leaks. It's worth shopping around for a new dealer. Especially if you let them know you are shopping around, the dealers get paid good money for warranty fixes by Land Rover, and are keen to take your business. (or at least they should be...)

[Didge]

That leak from the a/c in the passenger side footwell is an age old problem. My 95 Def has rust from the inside out right under the condensate line. No rust visible from under the vehicle, but plenty inside. Also, check out the mats they install, they absorb and hold water like a towel

[chumpion]

I guess it's a Defender thing.....

My 09 Puma is in the shop at the moment. It went in for it's 10,000km service, and a list of things to look at including:
* Whining rear diff,
* Crunch between 3rd and 4th,
* Low Range not staying engaged,
* Door handles loose,
* Door's all out of alignment (causing rear door to not be able to be opened sometimes..),
* Water leak near rear door,
* Terrible window tinting,
* Rusty bits under the vehicle,
* Paint starting to peel off on roof.

The whining diff is keeping it in the shop for at least a week while it goes offsite to be repaired. They are looking at some options with the rusty bits underneath, and they can't get the low range to not engage. They were taking off all the doors, and tightening everything up, so that'll be good.

The paint on the roof is a bit of a concern - all along the join above the front doors the paint is flaking off. It looks terrible, and I know it won't rust, but I'm a bit worried about water getting into the roof.

This vehicle has been off the road for 3 weeks in it's first 6 months of life - the first two weeks were to replace a whole heap of bits around the injectors. What annoys me is that it went in for a service for a day, maybe two, so I didn't ask for a loan car. That was almost a week ago... Same thing happened the first time too, so I jumped up and down and demanded a loan car for the second week.

The long and the short of it is there is a long list of things wrong with the car, but nothing that won't be sorted out soon (within warranty), and nothing that would stop it operating. Even when there was diesal leaking everywhere with the first problem, the vehicle still ran (albeit in limp home mode...). Once it's all sorted, It'll be a great car.

[spudboy]

There's something about owning a Defender and being an eternal optimist....:p

[chumpion]

There's something about owning a Defender and being an eternal optimist....:p

Yes. Yes, there is...... :beer: :beer:

[dullbird]

there is a known problem with the whining diffs in the rear of these defenders...you speak to most and most have been through 2-3 fixes/diffs

[waynep]

I guess it's a Defender thing.....


The paint on the roof is a bit of a concern - all along the join above the front doors the paint is flaking off. It looks terrible, and I know it won't rust, but I'm a bit worried about water getting into the roof.

.

Why won't it rust ?

[chumpion]

Why won't it rust ?

Please tell me the roof is still Aluminium.....

[spudfan]

Yep the roof is still birmambright alloy.
Before I bought the Puma Defender in 2008 I decided to look for comments from existing owners. I wanted to know how it really was so I searched for Puma Defender Tdci Australia. That is how I found this site. The reason I wanted some feed back from Australian owners was because I figured that Australian owners would give the vehicle the testing needed to truly evaluate this vehicle. Not only do you have long open roads but the tough offroad conditions that will test any vehicle. Also you have a culture of heading off into some pretty inhospitable places where not only is vehicle reliability necessary but some mechanical knowledge and a good dose of common sense.
When I found this site I discovered that people were using the latest Defender to head off to the "SIMPSON" and other such places. There were off course some comments relating bad experiences with the vehicle but on the whole it was well liked and respected. So I decided that if it was good enough for the Australians it was good enough for me. Besides I would not be heading off to the "Simpson" any time soon and I would have a three year warranty and three years AA breakdown and recovery cover.
The point being that if you want info, feedback and advice on the Puma Defender you have come to the right place. In the end the choice is up to you.

[chumpion]

I guess it's a Defender thing.....

My 09 Puma is in the shop at the moment. It went in for it's 10,000km service, and a list of things to look at including:
* Whining rear diff,
* Crunch between 3rd and 4th,
* Low Range not staying engaged,
* Door handles loose,
* Door's all out of alignment (causing rear door to not be able to be opened sometimes..),
* Water leak near rear door,
* Terrible window tinting,
* Rusty bits under the vehicle,
* Paint starting to peel off on roof.


Just an update on the above - the diff whine was only evident about 100km/h before. Now it starts at 40km/h.....

Tinting was redone, doors were all fixed, and the water leak was fixed.

But.... the paint repair on the roof.... it is fixed, but they used a different shade of grey, and a paintbrush. Looks bloody terrible! And they took photo's of the rust underneath..... yeah - that'll fix it....

So, it's back to the shop for another week.

[2234jones]

Just a suggestion, you could try the controller of the franchises as they have to sell so many vehicles and score a certain level of customer satisfaction to retain their franchise, I had this issue with the wife's Hyundai Santa Fe, and we got it cheap as we knew they wasn't selling enough.

Just a suggestion, but I would recommend going to another dealer, it may mean traveling, but if they rectify the issue then it'll be worth it.

Hope you get this sorted thanks Mark

[one_iota]

It was good to meet you today alittlebitconcerned. It is a small world. :D

Sorry to hear about your problems.

They say that the pen is mightier than the sword. If you haven't done so already write a letter to the dealer copied to LRA.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Likewise One Iota! It was good to know you are more than pleased with your truck, and whatever problems you've had got sorted without issue; makes me more positive about mine getting fixed.

[Didge]

Alittlebitconcerned, when I bought my 95 Def 110 last August (2009) I too was a tad concerned with what I thought could be costly problems and whether I'd bought a lemon but since having them fixed (at reasonable costs I might add) I'll refer you to Queen's song to convey my feelings for defenders in general

"The machine of a dream
Such a clean machine
With the pistons a pumpin
And the hub caps all gleam

When Im holdin your wheel
All I hear is your gear
When my hands on your grease gun
Oh it's like a disease son

Im in love with my car
Gotta feel for my automobile
Get a grip on my boy racer rollbar
Such a thrill when your radials squeal

Told my girl I'll have to forget her
Rather buy me a new carburetor
So she made tracks sayin
This is the end now
Cars don't talk back
They're just four wheeled friends now

When Im holdin your wheel
All I hear is your gear
When Im cruisin in overdrive
Don't have to listen to no run of the mill talk jive

Im in love with my car
Gotta feel for my automobile
Im in love with my car
String back gloves in my automolove "

Don't know the song? download it, take ya def for a drive and I'm sure you'll agree,
cheers gerald

[trailcutter]

took a new 2010 110 dual cab for test drive yesterday,,noticed fluid on iside top windscreen ,,vehicle had,nt been detailed fot lot yet,, so i thought fair enough,,coud,nt be leaking ,,tried the wipers/spray,,once/twice ,,,,,,,sure enough water passing thru top windscreen seal d/side,,,,,,love the vehicle but just how much character do the new ones retain,,,,,, concerned,,,

[one_iota]

Well apart from a new engine and gearbox they are basically the old one.

Just as in the old one it is the luck of the draw as to what leaks and where.

At least they are known issues...although I haven't come across the window leak one.

The Discovery did that a lot though. My Defender is much dryer . :D

[chumpion]

Just an update on the above - the diff whine was only evident about 100km/h before. Now it starts at 40km/h.....

Tinting was redone, doors were all fixed, and the water leak was fixed.

But.... the paint repair on the roof.... it is fixed, but they used a different shade of grey, and a paintbrush. Looks bloody terrible! And they took photo's of the rust underneath..... yeah - that'll fix it....

So, it's back to the shop for another week.

Sorry folks - have another update...

The Puma went in for the whining Diff, and now it's back to whining at only over about 90km/h (better than 40, but still...).... but now theres a clunk ech time the driveline goes from positive to negative pressure....

It's really noticeable in city driving, and coming up to traffic lights.

And now the rear door has bent out of shape at the top so much fumes are starting to come into the rear of the vehicle.

It's not 1 year old yet!!!!!!

And to top it all off - I met another guy in the dealer this morning with the same model defender, with the same clunk, and the same whine. Gave him my business card, so if it doesn't get fixed first time for him, I can add his vehicle somehow to my case with landrover....

Love my Defenders, but the friendship is starting to stretch a bit....

[dcale]

Hi,

My car is also under a year and also knocks when i slow down to a stop, not every time though. It only happens when you are slowing down under ~20km/h coming to a stop. It happens in gear/out of gear/with the clutch in and out and with and without the breaks on. The only way to stop it is to knock the transfer case lever into neutral. So far landrover have replaced the front and back diff which has had no effect except that the rear diff has a whine at 68km/h now. I believe it is in the transfer case possible gear box?? I have attached a recording I did with my mobile phone for any one interested you will have to listed carefully, it is in the background. Easier to hear with headphones.

[OrangeZXr10R]

I'll refer you to Queen's song to convey my feelings for defenders in general

"The machine of a dream
Such a clean machine
With the pistons a pumpin
And the hub caps all gleam


Don't know the song? download it, take ya def for a drive and I'm sure you'll agree,
cheers gerald

It's called "I'm In Love With My Car" :p

[Didge]

d'uoh! yeah, the title always help doesn't it. I'll put it down to the fact I type the way I live; fast with a lot of mistakes :)
I know this is like one of your mates always telling you about his fantastic sex life but I'm feeling really fortunate right now, after reading all these problems you guys are having and I really sympathise with your troubles cos I bought a 2nd hand 95 110 last August and apart from the usual wear and tear issues, (rear axles, ball joint on diff, brake booster pump, timing belt, shocks - god, even this is starting to sound bad) and the accompanying rust in the doors and passenger footwell, I've had no other troubles. Starts every time and no mystery sounds - every problem easy to find and solve. I must have been really lucky to get what I consider to be a good one. It was one of the reasons I was a bit wary in the first place.
cheers gerald

[ugu80]

I bought a 95 Defender 130 two and a bit years ago. The first thing I noticed was that my feet got wet when it rained. The second thing I noticed was the skin rubbed off my right elbow on the door trim when driving off road (I had previously a long association with two successive 60 series Toyotas. I did not get wet feet or skinned elbows in them). The third thing I noticed was how much further it went in difficult terrain than my old Toyos and how much smoother it did it). I purchased a machine that had been regularly serviced by the previous owner (it was a one owner) and I have not had a single mechanical issue, it has been smooth, quiet (of mechanical noise) and reliable. The fourth thing I noticed was how much I have come to love my Defender, I shall keep it til I die.

Now, if you are still reading, the point of this diatribe is that a defender seems to be the 4x4 version of a Moto Guzzi motor cycle (had a 2nd hand one of those too). As many motorcyclists will know, you do not buy a new Moto Guzzi. You let someone elso buy a new one who will soon sell it due to all the quality issues and breakdowns under warranty. The point being you, as the second owner, get a bike with all the problems fixed and have an excellant bike that is ultra reliable. Hmmmm, see the parallels?

[circlework]

Darn ...... and I thought getting your feet wet was practice for water crossings!


Poor misguided me. :angel: