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101RRS
4th February 2010, 07:56 PM
So are we happy to change from unleaded petrol to E10 in NSW from Jul 11 and from diesel to B5 soon after. The % of bio in diesel would be greater except that manufacturers will not warrant their cars to a higher level.

Also BP has said that all cars made from 1986 will have no issues running on their E10.

So if it is proven that E10 or B5 caused an issue in your car - I suppose there is no recourse for repair costs against the manufacturer, the fuel companies or the government.

Garry

hoadie72
4th February 2010, 08:45 PM
I haven't been following this, but I can say that the BPs in my local area stopped selling straight 91RON a couple of years ago and replaced it with E10. And charged the same for E10 as Shell charge for 91. :o

I've been running E10 in a Falcon for about years and have not seen any issues with it nor any increase in fuel consumption, which is what everyone predicted would happen.

rick130
5th February 2010, 07:06 AM
I don't like the E10 for OPE stuff, so I'll continue to use BP Ultimate or Shell V-Power for the saws and brushcutter.

There's a good chance of moisture absorption and subsequently corrosion with the E part of the fuel when something has been left standing for sometime.

JLo
5th February 2010, 07:57 AM
wrt B5 I find this inetresting as I asked Land Rover about it a couple of months ago. My question to them was very particular about the B5 blend for use in a TD5, available from the large distributors and not having choice in some instances.

I got the same reply that I think anyone else who has asked them the question of biodiesel use, they do not recommend it based on there being no bio-diesel quality standard in Aus. Hows that for non-committal.

Pity they aren't up to date with the current thinking of the oil refineries.


Cheers
JLo

101RRS
5th February 2010, 08:26 AM
I got the same reply that I think anyone else who has asked them the question of biodiesel use, they do not recommend it based on there being no bio-diesel quality standard in Aus. Hows that for non-committal.

The following is taken from NSW Hansard when the relevant bill was introduced into Parliament last year

Mr JOHN AQUILINA

"I am pleased to advise that BP has recently confirmed that it guarantees its E10 petrol for use in any vehicle manufactured post 1986 that has been designed for ULP irrespective of the vehicle's manufacturer's recommendation regarding ethanol content."

"The biodiesel mandate will be initially set at 2 per cent, but will be increased to 5 per cent in 2012. The 5 per cent is the maximum biodiesel content currently covered by most vehicle warranties, and the Federal Government has recently amended the diesel fuel standard to permit up to 5 per cent biodiesel in all diesel fuel."

scanfor
5th February 2010, 08:55 AM
Well if the E10 is OK to use in cars, then why is there a placard on the pump that says "This fuel is not to be used for marine or aviation activities"?
I guess if a car engine fails you just pull to the side of the road..........

Tusker
5th February 2010, 09:04 AM
I don't like the E10 for OPE stuff, so I'll continue to use BP Ultimate or Shell V-Power for the saws and brushcutter.

There's a good chance of moisture absorption and subsequently corrosion with the E part of the fuel when something has been left standing for sometime.

My local mower shop has a big sign to the effect you should empty out the fuel tank of saws, brushcutters etc if to be left idle for any length of time. :wasntme:

JLo
5th February 2010, 09:20 AM
.... and the Federal Government has recently amended the diesel fuel standard to permit up to 5 per cent biodiesel in all diesel fuel."

Yes that's right. The "diesel standard" has been amended to include bio-diesel.

LRA are saying that there is "no bio-diesel quality standard in Aus". My understanding was that the standards were also amended to provide a standard for bio-diesel in Sept' 09.

Hence my comment about LRA not being upto date.

Cheers
JLo

Disco44
5th February 2010, 10:15 AM
While traveling in WA I used bio diesel.My 300TDI loved it.I live in SE Qld and changed to Bio over here but my 300 does not like it...it runs rough at times.My question is .. Is there a difference in the blend between the states?

ramblingboy42
7th February 2010, 06:38 PM
I've been using b20 in my td5 for over a year/40k, nothing, no problems. I dont get it guys, there is nothing special about a td5, its just a direct injection modern technology diesel engine which will run on just about any combustible liquid whose viscosity is low enough to squirt through the injectors. my engine has done over 180k now of faultless driving.....

Lachlan_
18th February 2010, 10:29 PM
we used E10 fuel in our 83 corolla for a week just before an oil change and there were massive... MASSIVE chunks in the oil. now we arnt slack with oil changes or anything either.

so if you have an older vehicle just be really careful because its huge chunks like these that will do bearings and and stuff like that.

now im all for biofuels but i think they would work better in newer cars and if your going to run on E10 run it only on E10.

101RRS
18th February 2010, 10:41 PM
we used E10 fuel in our 83 corolla for a week just before an oil change and there were massive... MASSIVE chunks in the oil. now we arnt slack with oil changes or anything either.

so if you have an older vehicle just be really careful because its huge chunks like these that will do bearings and and stuff like that.

now im all for biofuels but i think they would work better in newer cars and if your going to run on E10 run it only on E10.

Chunks in the oil has nothing to do with the fuel - assuming the engine is basically OK and tuned correctly.

Garry

isuzutoo-eh
21st February 2010, 08:58 PM
I've been running my 91 corolla on E10 exclusively for 3 years/40,000km now and have had absolutely no problems except for being slightly harder to start in the cold, but that could be a distinct lack of compression due to age. I have never so much as changed fuel filters in that time either. When I first changed fuels I measured a minimal change in fuel economy, for the better, under 5% but an improvement not a loss. Power didn't feel any different. I buy it from two independant servos. Very pleased with E10.

Redback
24th February 2010, 09:25 AM
I've been running my 91 corolla on E10 exclusively for 3 years/40,000km now and have had absolutely no problems except for being slightly harder to start in the cold, but that could be a distinct lack of compression due to age. I have never so much as changed fuel filters in that time either. When I first changed fuels I measured a minimal change in fuel economy, for the better, under 5% but an improvement not a loss. Power didn't feel any different. I buy it from two independant servos. Very pleased with E10.

My daughter is running her 97 Camry V6 on E10 at the moment, she (and me) have noticed a drop in power and economy as well as running rougher and hard to start on cold mornings, she is trying to way up if it's cheaper to run on E10 over premium fuels.

Currently she has been getting about 80 to 100ks less on a full tank, but the E10 is around 10 to 30cents cheaper to buy (depending on discount days) so with a 75ltr tank it seems when the fuel is 30cents cheaper it's overall cheaper to run E10 but when the price difference is only 10cents the savings are minimal, if any.

It will be interesting to see what she decides, she's a lead foot:D

Baz.

101RRS
4th March 2010, 10:59 PM
I also visit some Jaguar sites and asked about ethanol use in other countries - main responses were from the US - California and Indiana.

Basically they are all suffering the same problems as have been reported here - perishing of rubbers, some corrosion of metal bits, higher fuel consumption, lower power, water absorption by the ethanol and fuel going off more quickly. They put some sort of additive into their tanks that stops the fuel going off and reduces water absorption but it seems it cost more than just using premium - they seemed to have ethanol also in their higher octane fuels. Their marine fuels are ethanol free so it gets used in some cars.

These are all 70s and earlier cars so not necessarily relevant to newer cars but typical of what we can expect in our older landies.

Garry

VladTepes
6th March 2010, 03:29 PM
Problem with E10 is it screws fuel economy and costs more overall.

Fuel comparison: E10 v unleaded v premium - www.drive.com.au (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=59639)

THE BOOGER
6th March 2010, 03:36 PM
So you pay what 2 cents per litre less but use more so who saves anything sounds like a merrygoround;)

Radz
7th March 2010, 03:23 PM
I have been wondering ever since bio fuels were introduced. Whats the point ?

bee utey
7th March 2010, 04:57 PM
I have been wondering ever since bio fuels were introduced. Whats the point ?
Great subsidies to be had. Its a very contentious issue in the US.

Radz
7th March 2010, 05:05 PM
Great subsidies to be had. Its a very contentious issue in the US.

Thanks for mentioning subsidies. Lets not get into discussions on roof insulation or solar panels et all.

That explains it.

PhilipA
9th March 2010, 04:51 PM
I have been wondering ever since bio fuels were introduced. Whats the point ?

Google Peak Oil. ( Has everyone forgotten that we are to run out of oil this year??) Hasn't been in the news recently has it.

Google USA oil import dependence and mountain of corn.

In OZ, NSW State government trying to look "green" , and maybe supporting a good party donor. Issues change don't they .

Just about all the commercial bio diesel plants have folded as the raw material is too expensive.

Regards Philip A

Frizz
12th March 2010, 06:52 PM
I don't think that you can blame Land Rover for not catching up.
The federal Government can legislate what it likes (as often it does) but LR designed an engine to run on DIESEL, as we all know it.

As stated above, there is no standard for biodiesel in Oz.
I can get anything I feel like; linseed oil, clean Canola oil, used fish and chip oil, used sump oil or manure slop for that matter; all of these could be called biodiesel. Whether it has been refined or treated in any way or not.

Would you run your diesel on 95% diesel and 5% Cotton seed oil? I think not.

The Aussie federal gov needs to set a standard that biodiesel needs to pass before it is blended with diesel at any rate.

When there are standards that a fuel is rated at: then a manufacturer can test fuel that marginally passes the benchmark and make an informed recommendation as to how much of that given fuel may be run in their engine without undue failure.

Particularly with 'backyard' biodiesel there is not necessarily much consistency between batches.'

I know plenty of people that run 100% bio with no problems, 1 for 100 00km. That is apart from hard starting on cold mournings due to the viscosity.

Bio is cheap if you make it yourself-vey cheap.
Personally to save 5 cents a litre, I don't think I would bother buying it commercially 'till there is a standard in place.
If you make it yourself,assume any risk, then go for it.

Remember though, those making it at home are using waste and there are only a few doing it in proportion to those who buy normal diesel. If demand for this biodesiel were to increase, supply of the waste oil would be scarce. To produce Biodiesel commercially large quantities of crops would need to be devoted to making bio. This would compete with crops being planted for food. It would also create a great deal of organic waste, this will biodegrade. The other thing to remember with home-made bio is that there is no freight, storage or insurance in manufacture,supply and distribution.

Two more factors to take into account
There is no multi-national company screwing a profit from us,
There is no excise on bio
YET

PhilipA
18th March 2010, 01:29 PM
As stated above, there is no standard for biodiesel in Oz.


Mate ! mate ! mate!
you have to keep up.

www.environment.gov.au/.../standards/biodiesel/summary.html (http://www.environment.gov.au/.../standards/biodiesel/summary.html)

One o fthe reasons most of the biodeisel manufacturers in austrealia went broke is that the standard is very high and no subsidy was given without the standard being met. i wa sdealing with this in 2007 and it was a major problem then as noone had testing facilities to test for the standard.
Regards Philip A

bee utey
18th March 2010, 01:33 PM
Mate ! mate ! mate!
you have to keep up.

www.environment.gov.au/.../standards/biodiesel/summary.html (http://www.environment.gov.au/.../standards/biodiesel/summary.html)

One o fthe reasons most of the biodeisel manufacturers in austrealia went broke is that the standard is very high and no subsidy was given without the standard being met. i wa sdealing with this in 2007 and it was a major problem then as noone had testing facilities to test for the standard.
Regards Philip A
The standard seems to have gone missing...

PhilipA
18th March 2010, 02:40 PM
Just Google "biodeisel standard ausdtralia " and it comes up. Maybe they moved it since .
Regards Philip A

PhilipA
18th March 2010, 02:43 PM
OK look here.
Diesel Fuel Quality Standard (http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/standards/diesel/index.html)

Regards Philip A

And here
http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/standards/biodiesel/summary.html