Modifying a TD5 for more performance

[Tombie]

Many of you would like a bit more go from your TD5, be it Discovery or Defender.

But how does one go about it? What are the pitfalls etc...? Well hopefully this thread will help those of you on your journey to enhance the performance of your TD5.

Firstly, what are you looking for out of your TD5? Driveability improvement? More power for towing? Outright grunt? Dont say 'more economy', as a well maintained TD5 is about as economical as it gets... Its hardly worth the costs of modifying it to save money :cool:

So lets look at the basics...

The TD5 is a unitary injected, ECU controlled 5 cylinder diesel turbo.
In factory trim its running ~1 bar boost.

To improve the output we can look at the basics...

Improved inlet and exhaust
Increased boost pressure
Improved flow and Cooling of intake charge
Optimised fuelling and timing

These are essentially all that can be altered in the TD5.

Some have gone as far as to custom cast cranks etc for larger swept capacity but these are very expensive for the gains made...

Where to start: Driveability upgrade...

Start by getting the ECU modified to a better mapping.
- On early ECUs this is done by 'chipping' - replacing a 44 pin chip on the board in the ECU by de-soldering and fitting a newly programmed chip.
Early ECUs are generally 1998-2001 and have a part number MSBxxxxxx

- Later ECUs have this done by a 'remap' or 'flash' upgrade - done by connecting a programmer to the diagnostic port of the vehicle and actually overwriting the current program with an improved version.
This is extremely effective and time efficient.
Later (flash upgradeable) ECUs 2001+ have part numbers NNNxxxxxx

The base level (Stage 1) upgrades provide approximately 30% more output from the engine. The torque increase and power will enhance the driving experience, enabling smoother overtaking and acceleration, reducing lag, improving towing and making the vehicle much nicer to drive overall.

It places very little stress on the engine, however, if towing in particular, can accelerate the inevitable Exhaust manifold warp. please note that this is going to happen to ALL TD5s not just modified units..

EGR removal - To protect the engine from contaminants and also due to the commonality of failure of the EGR system due to contamination, it is wise to consider the removal of the EGR unit.

This unit on earlier models allows soot etc to be pumped back into the engine intake - not good! Later models also have a valve for throttle.
And EGR removal kit will remove these and their restrictive nature allowing a smoother flow of air charge into the engine, and the benefit of keeping the intake cleaner.

These 2 simple modifications are the basis of an upgrade and will enhance the driving experience for a large number of owners.

Combined with efficient mapping, and once the owner gets over the 'happy week' where they enjoy and use all the available power :angel: owners often find their economy is the same, or marginally improved over stock.

(More to come next Crib break)

[PAT303]

Tombie is the Td6 upgrade the same?,I've looked into it and the best improvement that any chip upgrade does doesn't warrant the cost involved,most are only around 10% improvement for a grand or more and I've had a D4D hilux work ute that cost $1300 and I didn't notice any improvement. Pat

[Rosscoe68]

good start. will watch this thread with interest and see if i have done good :)

[Blknight.aus]

I'll add a caveat to that.....

If you are planning to upgrade the inlet and exhaust do that before you get the ECU done as in some but not all cases changing those after you do the ECU remap can require an additional tweak.

My reccomended sequence of upgrades for more power/performance is

exhaust mods (including port/polish/matching of the head/manifolds)
Intake mods (including port/polis/matching of the head/manifolds)
ECU/engine internals (camshafts/rockers etc.)

of course if you're not planning to upgrade one of those just skip that step.

[justinc]

Many of you would like a bit more go from your TD5, be it Discovery or Defender.

But how does one go about it? What are the pitfalls etc...? Well hopefully this thread will help those of you on your journey to enhance the performance of your TD5.

Firstly, what are you looking for out of your TD5? Driveability improvement? More power for towing? Outright grunt? Dont say 'more economy', as a well maintained TD5 is about as economical as it gets... Its hardly worth the costs of modifying it to save money :cool:

So lets look at the basics...

The TD5 is a unitary injected, ECU controlled 5 cylinder diesel turbo.
In factory trim its running ~1 bar boost.

To improve the output we can look at the basics...

Improved inlet and exhaust
Increased boost pressure
Improved flow and Cooling of intake charge
Optimised fuelling and timing

These are essentially all that can be altered in the TD5.

Some have gone as far as to custom cast cranks etc for larger swept capacity but these are very expensive for the gains made...

Where to start: Driveability upgrade...

Start by getting the ECU modified to a better mapping.
- On early ECUs this is done by 'chipping' - replacing a 44 pin chip on the board in the ECU by de-soldering and fitting a newly programmed chip.
Early ECUs are generally 1998-2001 and have a part number MSBxxxxxx

- Later ECUs have this done by a 'remap' or 'flash' upgrade - done by connecting a programmer to the diagnostic port of the vehicle and actually overwriting the current program with an improved version.
This is extremely effective and time efficient.
Later (flash upgradeable) ECUs 2001+ have part numbers NNNxxxxxx

The base level (Stage 1) upgrades provide approximately 30% more output from the engine. The torque increase and power will enhance the driving experience, enabling smoother overtaking and acceleration, reducing lag, improving towing and making the vehicle much nicer to drive overall.

It places very little stress on the engine, however, if towing in particular, can accelerate the inevitable Exhaust manifold warp. please note that this is going to happen to ALL TD5s not just modified units..

EGR removal - To protect the engine from contaminants and also due to the commonality of failure of the EGR system due to contamination, it is wise to consider the removal of the EGR unit.

This unit on earlier models allows soot etc to be pumped back into the engine intake - not good! Later models also have a valve for throttle.
And EGR removal kit will remove these and their restrictive nature allowing a smoother flow of air charge into the engine, and the benefit of keeping the intake cleaner.

These 2 simple modifications are the basis of an upgrade and will enhance the driving experience for a large number of owners.

Combined with efficient mapping, and once the owner gets over the 'happy week' where they enjoy and use all the available power :angel: owners often find their economy is the same, or marginally improved over stock.
(More to come next Crib break)


I have flashed a few of Tombie2's (BAS) maps, and EVERY ONE has improved the fuel consumption, and the owners can't stop raving about the performance enhancement. Thats BEFORE the intercooler or EGR upgrade in most cases:D Thoroughly recommend them:cool:

(Yes I DO sell them, but I AM very happy with the feedback I have had:))

JC

[stig0000]

im still saving,,, and can't weight to get teh 200kw chip and biiiigggg inter-cooler

[Naks]

bang for buck the best performance mod to a Td5 is to remove the middle silence box and if present the cat. ;)

[Rudolf]

bang for buck the best performance mod to a Td5 is to remove the middle silence box and if present the cat. ;)

I agree.
But now the engine tends to go into over boost while going hard uphill at 120K/h.
Power gets cut and the D2 slows dramatically.

[Naks]

But now the engine tends to go into over boost while going hard uphill at 120K/h. Power gets cut and the D2 slows dramatically.


AFAIK, that should not happen. Have you bypassed the turbo vacuum advance thingie?

Not sure what the proper name is, but there's a small pipe (approx 6mm diameter) that goes from the inlet manifold into a (stupid) device, and from there another similar pipe goes onto the turbo.

If you bypass that device, the boost goes to 1.2 and stays there. In the original setup, the boost fluctuates wildly between 0 and 1.2.

[Rudolf]

AFAIK, that should not happen. Have you bypassed the turbo vacuum advance thingie?

Not sure what the proper name is, but there's a small pipe (approx 6mm diameter) that goes from the inlet manifold into a (stupid) device, and from there another similar pipe goes onto the turbo.

If you bypass that device, the boost goes to 1.2 and stays there. In the original setup, the boost fluctuates wildly between 0 and 1.2.
Stock standard, no mods except EGR/Centre muffler removed and silicon pipes.(5 ply from BAS)

Fuel starvation? I did replace the fuel filter.

[Rosscoe68]

AFAIK, that should not happen. Have you bypassed the turbo vacuum advance thingie?

Not sure what the proper name is, but there's a small pipe (approx 6mm diameter) that goes from the inlet manifold into a (stupid) device, and from there another similar pipe goes onto the turbo. Electronic Wastegate Controller


If you bypass that device, the boost goes to 1.2 and stays there. In the original setup, the boost fluctuates wildly between 0 and 1.2.
you would only have wildly fluctuating boost if the controller is suspect. it is less than 2 minute job to replace and costs only about $55, so i would replace it rather than bypass it. in adition if you bypass it, you may end up with the inevitable wastegate creep where the turbo wont be able to make as much boost early. with the electronic controller in place working properly, the boost will come on earlier and will be more controlled.

[Rosscoe68]

bang for buck the best performance mod to a Td5 is to remove the middle silence box and if present the cat. ;)

warning for the unwary. in qld, if qld transport check your vehicle and it was orginally fitted with a cat and you remove it, big fines and off the road you go until you get it refitted. don't know about other states though.

[Rudolf]

AFAIK, that should not happen. Have you bypassed the turbo vacuum advance thingie?

Not sure what the proper name is, but there's a small pipe (approx 6mm diameter) that goes from the inlet manifold into a (stupid) device, and from there another similar pipe goes onto the turbo.

If you bypass that device, the boost goes to 1.2 and stays there. In the original setup, the boost fluctuates wildly between 0 and 1.2.
Yes, it shouldnt happen.
The pressure pipe was blown off the (stupid) device. (waste gate controller)
Not able to test drive it today.
It was hot and I was thirsty.
Will do it tomorrow.

[Rudolf]

Pulls like a train and the power uphill stays.

[TP7]

Where in Brisbane can you get the ecu flashed and about how much does it cost?

[farmport]

Just a word of caution. The wastegate on a TD5 is just adequate. Once you start pulling some real horsepower it is likely the boost will go past the approx 19psi fuel cut point under high revs hard acceleration. Have a Def TD5 with exhaust opened up, chipped, BIG intercooler 600x300x76, diesel/gas and boost set to 17.0psi. AFRs are ideal under load and EGTs are good. But, it tips over the fuel cut point quite often when driving hard. In an effort to compensate we adjusted the waste gate actuater to 13psi and put in a Turbosmart boost controller to get the boost back up again. Theory behind this was to ensure the wastegate was opening as far as possible. It made no difference. As soon as the engine starts making near max exhaust gas the boost rises beyond the control pressure and fuel cut occurs. Next step is an external wastegate or a different turbo setup completely.

Can anyone tell me what turbo options are readily available for TD5.

Dave

[RedTD5]

Td5 alive sell a boost box that allows more boost through the motor and stops the fuel cut. I'm not sure for defender but it limits it to 24PSI for the Disco. With the bigger intercooler this apparently leaves everything safe for the engine.

[Naks]

Can anyone tell me what turbo options are readily available for TD5.

Dave, there's a UK outfit that sells a VNT turbo for the TD5 - I cannot remember which one, sure Google will reveal it.

IIRC, it's simple enough for a DIY job

[Tombie]

TD5 Boost boxes are not made by TD5 Alive...
They are a B-A-S unit, rebadged and distributed by Gary.

I have a few of the units here at the moment.

Farmport - What size exhaust are you running? I'll put money on it its 3" ;)

[pohm66]

Just to cross reference another possible performance thread for TD5s

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/113424-td5-maf-bypass.html

[thebiglad]

bang for buck the best performance mod to a Td5 is to remove the middle silence box and if present the cat. ;)


I did this last week to my '99 TD5 auto (de-EGR'd) and to be honest I didn't think it improved performance at all - but what it did do was to create a real droning noise when working on an autobox car. On my mates manual box car it works better.

I've now put the std centre box back, it was that bad on an auto car.

However I've found the De'catting of the exhaust downpipe a completely different matter and very useful indeed - on catted Disco's.

Cheers
Dave

[Naks]

I did this last week to my '99 TD5 auto (de-EGR'd) and to be honest I didn't think it improved performance at all - but what it did do was to create a real droning noise when working on an autobox car. On my mates manual box car it works better. I've now put the std centre box back, it was that bad on an auto car.


Odd, my 03 D2 was also decatted, and when I removed the centre box it made a world of difference in performance. The droning was not too bad either - SWAMBO did not even notice the difference ;)

[thebiglad]

Odd, my 03 D2 was also decatted, and when I removed the centre box it made a world of difference in performance. The droning was not too bad either - SWAMBO did not even notice the difference ;)

What can I say mate? I've tried this on my previous '98 TDi 300 auto and it was the same - no extra performance but the droning noise was just not nice.

In the past I've had all sorts of motors some of which have had barely legal exhausts and they sounded great, but Disco autos and the way they work seem to me to be an unsuitable candidate for this mod, just my opinion of course.

To be honest I wish it did transform my TD5 - I've got the straight-thru pipe sitting in the shed gathering dust :(:eek::o


Cheers
Dave

[Naks]

To be honest I wish it did transform my TD5 - I've got the straight-thru pipe sitting in the shed gathering dust

Dave, I cannot comment on the TDi.

On the Td5, there is empirical evidence (just cannot remember who posted it and where though) that removing the middle box helps the turbo to spool up faster and reduces EGTs. The dyno printout from that article shows there is a noticeable difference pre- and post-removal.

If there is no improvements, however small, possibly there is something else wrong with the engine that is now being revealed? Have you checked boost pressure and other such fiddly bits?

[thebiglad]

Dave, I cannot comment on the TDi.

On the Td5, there is empirical evidence (just cannot remember who posted it and where though) that removing the middle box helps the turbo to spool up faster and reduces EGTs. The dyno printout from that article shows there is a noticeable difference pre- and post-removal.

If there is no improvements, however small, possibly there is something else wrong with the engine that is now being revealed? Have you checked boost pressure and other such fiddly bits?

Hi Naks and thank you for walking me along this road. Maybe it's because I tend to drive like a granny but I 'm sure nothing noticable was happening any better.

I have a HawkEye and have checked using live data that all the measurable components - MAF, MAP turbo etc - are all working to spec.

Maybe I just need to drive it harder to feel the difference?

Cheers
Dave

[Naks]

Hi Naks and thank you for walking me along this road. Maybe it's because I tend to drive like a granny but I 'm sure nothing noticable was happening any better.
I have a HawkEye and have checked using live data that all the measurable components - MAF, MAP turbo etc - are all working to spec.
Maybe I just need to drive it harder to feel the difference?


Nope, most of the gains occur at low revs, where you would have noticed quicker acceleration due to the turbo spooling up earlier. I also drive like a granny :)

[thebiglad]

Nope, most of the gains occur at low revs, where you would have noticed quicker acceleration due to the turbo spooling up earlier. I also drive like a granny :)


I understand that theory as I've applied to many Discos TDi and TD5 that have cats in their downpipe and changing them really does make a noticeble difference, but centre pipe - Nah! not in my case.

If it did make the care feel more lively then I could put up with the noise a bit easier - but "blow and no go" just isn't for me.

Cheers any for trying to help,

Dave

[def9087]

In removing the EGR, do you also take the solenoid out altogether?
someone mentioned that this should be done before chipping however i havea Bruce Davis chip in mine already. will this mess with the performance?

would it be worth leaving the EGR assembly in line and removing the butterfly or setting the inlet to permanently closed in order for it to appear un tampered with in case of RTA inspection? i would still put the blanking plate on the exhaust manifold to keep the pressure high for the turbo.

Also do you know about turning the EGR matrix into a water heater? would be a shame to remove it if it has another use.
thanks