How good is the D3 ride?

[Graeme]

2 years ago we had a drive of a new D3 to test how it rode bumps and broken surfaces and liked the ride. Now we have a D4 and find the ride very harsh and not at all to our requirments. Having replaced the front sway bar with one from a D3 and even though it now could do with the D3 rear one too, the ride has significantly improved by the elimination of the tossing that occurred by the body following the front wheels up and down. However now the shocks feel way too stiff on corrugations and country backroads with the vehicle being shaken terribly. The ride is unsuitable for our purpose, partly because I don't like being shaken about all the time and making for tiring driving, and because my wife has a back injury where bumps cause a lot of pain.

How do D3s really ride the backroads and corrugations? I'm wanting to fit D3 shocks but need confirmation that I'm not chasing something that doesn't exist.

TIA

[jonesfam]

Like your on AIR man!
In all seriousness, I find our 09 D3 has excellent ride at normal hight.
I live with loads of corrugations, humps, bumps & holes & the ride is IMHO very good.
I have driven a 200 series Land Cruiser out here & it road very softly, more so than the D3 but it was also wallows & sort of not as controlled as the D3.
The D3 is far, far better than our ex Pathfinder R51, Terracan or Patrol. I have had a short drive of 1 Prado & the front end seemed to bounce a lot, not harsh but bouncy.
I find the D3 very good on corrugations, no bashing & no skittering about but in off road height it seems a little harsher though not that much.
Compared to all the wagons I've owned or driven the D3 is the best, compared to the utes I drive for work - best left unsaid, boy they are rough.
Jonesfam

[chuck]

Graeme,

They ride on gravel roads very well.
On one particular road 60 - 70 kmh was comfortable with the D2 in my D3 100kmh with comfort and control.
I would say that the single biggest improvement over my D2 is dirt road ride & control.

If you are coming down to Melbourne you are welcome to drive mine - I am in the northern Suburbs.
We could take your D4 & my D3 & you could do a direct comparison.

Regards

Chuck

[gghaggis]

My wife also has a bad back, and won't go offroad in anything but the D3 - I'm actually wondering how I'm going to get her in the new RRS, which is much firmer!

Gravel roads are glided over, pot-holes don't exist (well, not really, but you get the point).

Cheers,

Gordon

[ADMIRAL]

2 years ago we had a drive of a new D3 to test how it rode bumps and broken surfaces and liked the ride. Now we have a D4 and find the ride very harsh and not at all to our requirments. Having replaced the front sway bar with one from a D3 and even though it now could do with the D3 rear one too, the ride has significantly improved by the elimination of the tossing that occurred by the body following the front wheels up and down. However now the shocks feel way too stiff on corrugations and country backroads with the vehicle being shaken terribly. The ride is unsuitable for our purpose, partly because I don't like being shaken about all the time and making for tiring driving, and because my wife has a back injury where bumps cause a lot of pain.

How do D3s really ride the backroads and corrugations? I'm wanting to fit D3 shocks but need confirmation that I'm not chasing something that doesn't exist.

TIA
Graeme- Doesn't sound right. I can't compare to a D3, but my D4 is far more controlled and an easier ride than our old Patrol.

Something doesn't gel. I have read numerous comments on D3 vs D4 on this site, and almost all seem to feel the D4 is softer ? I would take up the offer of a comparison drive in another D4......or ask your dealer for a test drive in another vehicle.

[rmp]

I think the answer may be tyre profile. The lower the profile, the rougher the ride. If your D3 was on 17s and the D4 is on 19s that won't have improved the ride at all. Also check tyre pressures as some idiot shops simply put them at max-inflate. I'd do those before changing swaybars or shocks.

[Graeme]

Thanks for the replies.

Fast gravel is fine - I do 100 kph on our lane but its smooth. Its the constant bashing that occurs on older sealed roads and picking my way along forest roads and tracks at 30-60 kph where the shocks seem almost locked. Its very much like the ride from a damaged Koni that was on the rear of my D2 where the bump valve was jammed shut. The shocks seemed to get stiffer/worse during the drive but maybe my discontent and my wife's pain had well and truly set in - she had her seat out flat by half way.

Front tyres are at 30 psi and rears 32 psi. I'm sure its not just the 19" tyres, as even at 100 kph if there's a little dip in the bitumen the back-end is snatched down with a thump by the stiff shocks.

Jonesfam - I'm encouraged by your comments.

Chuck - Thanks for the offer.

One particular motoring journo's report from the UK that country drivers wont like the D4 suspension changes makes me think that D3 shocks will be a big improvement, but its an expensive step that I don't want to take without knowing that the improvement will be worthwhile. The D3 sway bar only cost me $77 delivered and less than 2 hrs to fit, so was an insignificant cost if it didn't do the job.

I was hoping to spend a few days touring around Alice Springs later this year but that wont be happening with the suspension the way it is.

[rmp]

In offroad mode the ride hardens. If you are going to change the shocks then use aftermarket ones like Konis. But before you do anything check another D4 and make sure it's not a problem specific to yours.

[Graeme]

I can't imagine that what I'm experiencing is a fault with my vehicle (eg 1 shock with a stuck valve) because its even for both front and back pairs of wheels. The wheel alignment doesn't appear to be grossly out as tyre wear looks acceptable and cornering feels quite good, with higher speed cornering on smooth surfaces quite like a sports car. I don't think the Pirelli ATRs can be blamed but they may contribute along with the already short 19" sidewalls.

Why not D3 shocks, too expensive or not so good with a heavily loaded rear? I'm not concerned about the loaded rear as I could refit the originals for any desert trips where the vehicle is carrying lots of fuel and water and no wife, although changing shocks is not as simple as the D2.

Do you know if the Konis give as good a ride as the D3 originals when lightly loaded? I don't recall reading any reports on their performance. I had my D2 front Konis revalved to reduce the bump resistance because of the thumping (had rears done too but they had to be reset to std) so would need to know how the D3/4 versions ride. I fitted Bilsteins to my 1st D2 and even after they were revalved softer, they were still too harsh so I took them off to refit when it was sold.

[jonesfam]

I have 19" tyres on my D3:mad: but still can't fault the ride compared to other wagons I have driven or owned, which doesn't include the D4.
At the correct pressure the 19's ride pretty darn well.
Last time I came home from leave we were doing 90kph between Normanton & Burketown with over a tonn of trailer on the back, 30psi in the front 35psi in the back & over the corrugations & bumps the ride was grouse.
The road had not been graded for a while & was pretty corrugated, in places really bad and some places were scoured out which is normally very rough - not in the D3!
Even around the paved back roads of Ravenshoe (our Country Seat) the ride is terrific, & despite my best efforts in the House of Lords the roads there are rubbish.
Jonesfam

[Graeme]

Thanks Jonesfam for more encouraging reports.

Today I came across my saved 4wd mags with D3 reports and they all praise the D3's ride on bad roads. I really think std D3 shocks is the only safe option for me.

[Bushwanderer]

Hi Graeme,
I don't know if this will help, or not. :( Is it possible that the air springs on the D4 are different and run at higher pressures than those for the D3?

Best of Luck,
Peter

[Graeme]

G'day Peter,
I don't know if the air springs are the same part number or not. I've not seen any reference to them being changed for the D4 whereas the shocks and sway bars are documented by LR as being uprated. I can feel that using off-road height does make the springs a bit stiffer. A TSB from earlier this month that's applicable to all D3/D4/RRS air suspension ecus shows that they all use the same software. The TSB is to reduce the reservoir max pressure, perhaps to reduce the work done by the compressor to prevent it from prematurely overheating. Hence I doubt the air springs operate at a higher pressure. The ride on slow shock piston movement (eg smooth causeways at 100kph and wide ruts and potholes at 40kph) is great which suggests to me that the harshness is not caused by stiff spring rates. I like the way the D4 shocks dampen bounce on big dippers and suspect they are better than D3s at this task, but its the quick shock movement that's causing the problem.

[Bushwanderer]

Hi Graeme,
Thanks for your informative reply. It looks like you have covered most, if not all, bases. :( I must admit, I can't see any alternative apart from shocks replacement (or buying a D3 ;) ).

I know that having a passenger with back problems causes stress to the car owner (it was this situation which led me to my first LR - a Disco 1). However it would be unwelcome of me, I'm sure, to suggest replacing passengers, as I have. :twisted:

Best of Luck,
Peter

[Graeme]

I would be driving an MY09 D3 except that 10 days after placing my order and having confirmed that the colour would be available for a factory order vehicle, LR advised that the colour had been discontinued because of the forthcoming new model. I got tempted by the possibility of the 3.0 engine and waited for the MY10 version.

I'm not considering replacing the passenger so will have to adjust the vehicle to suit and to suit me as well.

[Graeme]

D3 rear sway bar is now also fitted and I'll find out tomorrow how much of an improvement has occurred. Shocks are loosing some of their thumping after 12K and using my 30mm selectable extra ride height on my now not-so-good storm-damaged lane helps to stay away from the bump stops at speed.

[CaverD3]

I have a D3
Ride softness changes with height. Higher pressure is used to raise the height. It is about a balance between comfort and handling with the ride height setting. As Graeme said it can hit the bump stops on the normal height. When I select my 30mm lift I find that it rides better over roughtracks but is not as harsh as off road setting, perfect.:D
I can't see how the springs would be different on th D4 The ability of the D3 to handle corrugations is amazing and I think the D4s stiffer ARB could well be affecting it's ability to cope with the rapis movement as it would be pushing down harder.
It will be interesting to see how Graeme find the old D3 sway bar.

[Graeme]

When I select my 30mm lift I find that it rides better over roughtracks but is not as harsh as off road setting, perfect.:D
I totally agree, as the +50mm / off-road height is considerably harsher. 30mm is enough to keep it off the bump stops even at speeds well over 100 kph. I was in a hurry and did 120 taking a short-cut across a paddock a couple of days ago.

Whilst I've been out thismorning, I've only been on gravel and good sealed surfaces, not the patchy sealed roads where the vehicle previously was jerked about following the undulations so don't yet know the result.

There's still the issue of the front shocks unduly resisting low-frequency small fast movements. Interestingly, my 2km driveway now has lots of corrugation patches in sandy sections and they are where the vehicle is basically coasting. The D2 only caused 1 short section of corrugations.

[Graeme]

I am pleased that the vehicle no longer feels that its being tossed-about by the sway bars. The steering is also not quite so direct due to the vehicle leaning just a little more than previously, which I like. The combined changes makes the ride less bumpy and less fidgetty which also makes for a more relaxed ride.

If retrofitting D3 shocks was as inexpensive they'd be changed too but at least for the moment they will stay.

[Bushwanderer]

Hi Graeme,
It sounds like you have a setup that both you & SWMBO can live with.

Well Done, :BigThumb:
Peter

[Graeme]

Yes, the D3 sway bars have removed 2/3rds of the harshness and tossing and as the D3 front shocks cost $580 each, I hope we can live with them. When I decided to wait for the D4 even though there were reports of the harsh ride, I thought changing the sway bars would probably not be an option thinking that the body might have to be removed to change them, but not so. Next change is probably to the rim size to get more sidewall, being another permanent improvement.

[Bushwanderer]

Hi Graeme,
I agree, it would be great if the 18" rims came to fruition.

Best of Luck,
Peter

[Graeme]

After having retro-fitted both D3 sway bars to alleviate the tossing from side to side, I'm very dissapointed to find that the D4's ride still falls a long way short of what's needed due to the stiffness of the shocks, both bump and rebound stiffness although the rebound seems the bigger culprit. After a 400 km leasurely drive in the rain today around the higher country, what should have been a pleasant outing turned into a 'grit your teeth and wait for home' for my wife. I had hoped the ride improvement from fitting the D3 sway bars would be good enough, but not so.

It seems that $2K+ on new D3 shocks (fronts priced at $580 ea) is the only option, unless a test ride in a Koni-fitted D3 was available. I might have to see if a Koni importer can supply a test vehicle.

[CaverD3]

I think LR improved the handling of the D4 by lowering it by 20mm or so and then stiffening the sway bars.
I found out when measuring some D3s at the dealer for an average ride height.
This would result in a lower pressure in the airbags and hense less rebound pressure.
Get some adjustable rods and it would bring your suspension back the D3 specs. Or use your system to adjust the standard height +15-20mm
D3s were about 44cm from top centre cap to the bottom of the wheel arch the D4 was about 42cm.

[Graeme]

My guard to the top of the hub cap is 43-44 cm. I tried my +30mm lift which slightly increased the hard-tyre sensation and slightly decreased the shock stiffness feeling but nothing worthwhile. The D4 shocks are definitely much stiffer than the D3's.

I'd be much happier changing to D3 shocks if they were to last a decent length of time, considering their cost. My LR and cheaper after-market D2 shocks have always been worn-out by about 60K (less than 2 years for me) and D3 shocks seem to be no different, but these D4 shocks, reportedly made by or in conjunction with Bilstein, might last a far greater time so stuck with them for longer. I'd expect to miss out on warranty replacements if they failed during the D4's warranty period, which has occurred on the occasional D3 shock. The Konis for the D3 might last longer than LR D3 shocks but I'd have to try before buying - frypans and fire! I really doubt the Konis are any better judging by their description of how they operate but would like to be proved wrong.

[CaverD3]

My rods were set too long at the back and I found it made a big difference to the ride and handling. Fine tuning in increments of 10mm may yield a better result. 30cm change may be too much.
You are probably right about the shocks settings but you may get an acceptable result with tuning the ride height. If others have the Konis on theirs they should be able to tell you what the result is.
The variables in suspension tuning would be spring stiffness = ride height, shock absorbers and sway bar stiffness. If should be able to return to D3 ride the D4 by replacing the sway bars and shocks but if the ride height is not tuned right then it still wont work.

I set mine at 44cm but figures for the rear were higher.

The others I measured to nearest 5mm.

Front 43.5, 44.5, 44, 44, 43.5,44, 44,43.5,43,44 = average of 43.8

Rear 44.5,45, 46,46,45,46,46,46,45.5,46,46 = average of 45.6

I only measured one D4 it was

Front 43, 44

Rear 46,46

It would be interesting what others heights are.
Anyone who who would like to measure theirs measure from the top of the centre cap to the underside of wheel arch, staing if D3 or D4.

[Graeme]

My 30mm is 60% of the off-road height increase for each wheel as determined by the suspension ecu, so there can't be any inconsistency front to rear. When I was calibrating using programmed values I took many standard height measurements and almost always got a different height for each wheel even without moving the vehicle, but this logic has since been discarded. However I don't have a level parking surface so the suspension ecu has to be happy with approximate heights.

I could easily modify all my standard heights by any percentage of off-road height to raise by small amounts without compromising the existing options if it helped, but the shocks were still way too stiff with the 30mm lift so it would seem futile to try.

I'm thinking of adding some ballast (8x20L drums of water) to the rear for a drive in 10 days time so see to what extent that tames the rear, as there's quite a difference in ride between a full fuel tank and an empty one. Hopefully it wont be too long before ARB release their bull-bar and I'll install the winch too if it helps tame the front. However carrying extra weight might increase spring stiffness more than a bit of extra height and thus counter-productive, in which case I'll dispense with the ballast.

I am aware that I have given the shocks an opportunity to upset the ride by installing softer sway bars that allow more suspension movement, but the bars had to go and the shocks will go too if that's what it takes to soften the ride.

[Graeme]

My D3 shocks are quite worn-out after 60K although they still handle gravel roads well. I was going to refit at least the D4 rears but after re-reading this thread I suspect I shouldn't as I had forgotten how much I disliked the D4 shocks. I really liked the D3 ride but the thought of buying another expensive set for only another 60K isn't very appealing.

[gghaggis]

Playing Devil's advocate here, wasn't all of this before you changed to 17" rims? Would that not make a significant difference to the D4 ride - have you used the 19" rims since changing to the D3 setup?

Cheers,

Gordon

[Graeme]

17" rims was the last change and the 19s haven't been refitted since. The wheel/tyre change made the biggest ride improvement of the sway bars, shocks then wheels so perhaps the 19s should indeed be given a run again. Also as it doesn't take long to swap the rear shocks it would be prudent to revisit them with the 17s before making any decisions.

[Graeme]

The original D4 shocks will be refitted whilst I wait to see what Koni do regarding valving for Australian conditions, as the worn-out D3 ones degraded rapidly with yesterday's 900 kms.

[Graeme]

Ah its good to have working shocks again, even if they are the firmer originals.