130 on portals

[100inch]

Found this nice 130 from Germany on portals...regards m
Offroad Forum - Die große deutschsprachige Community für alle Offroad-, Allrad- und Reisebegeisterten :: Thema anzeigen - Der LR (Portal)-Achsenfred (http://www.offroad-forum.de/viewtopic.php't=3020&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=210)

[Sly]

Trust the Germans to do serious Defender porn !.

[MacFamily]

Awesome 130 thats Roberts aka Oilworker pics also in here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/49826-show-us-your-deefers-43.html

[Oilworker]

If you could figure out a way of driving down to Australia, I would start planning right away :)

Currently we are changing the main brake cylinder (Land Rover´s is just too small), await a few goodies from Allisport and the new 1:003 transfer case from Dave Ashcroft, together with his underdrive.
The Proflex shocks going back to service on Monday, they somehow screwed it up the last time and when everything is back the Rhino will be put back together and go through the german MOT.

The truck is on the road daily already and does really well with the portals and tyres. The setup is just great and the braking power is no comparison to what it originally was.

So long,

Robert

[slt]

Good to see someone else who thinks the LR warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on lol

Love your "Felgen" ... what are they?

[bee utey]

Good to see someone else who thinks the LR warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on lol

Love your "Felgen" ... what are they?
Wheel rims

[Oilworker]

LR what? Warranty? :D:D

I like the body but the rest is up to modifications....
The wheels/rims are Hutchinson double beadlock as used on the military Mercedes G and the armoured G. 16"

We mounted the Cooper STT 315/75R16 as a daily tyre and will adapt to that.

[Oilworker]

Some more images from the past weeks and a comparison to a "standard" 130CC...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/07/1027.jpg

During this years Dresden-Breslau Rallye (as Presscar)...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/07/349.jpg

...and back at the shop for planning of the new external roll cage and the utility rack...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/07/1028.jpg

So long,

Robert

[philco]

Love the pics, love to try the portals on my 130 also.

[pc3]

Love the pics, love to try the portals on my 130 also.

Excuse my ignorance what are portals? Can they be fitted to any defender or are mods required? Where do you buy them and at what cost? They look great!!!!!

[nayto]

If its noticable on the photos, the diff pumpkin in way up higher than normal.....just like on the army unimogs.
They run a gear reduction at the hub, sometimes planetary, sometimes just a reduction gearset, which in turn means the axles dont have to be as strong as the torque isnt as great until it reaches the hub.
So you get huge diff pumpkin clearance, without having to run massive tyres, aswell as the gear reduction and no broken axles :)
Thats how i see it anyway, ive pulled apart unimog ones at work, but never had anything to do with the marks, or maxidrive ones available.
Prices.......they arent even an option for most people, AFAIK they were minimum $15K for the maxi ones (i dont even know if theyre available still) and Marks are even more...

[Didge]

Yeah, they alone cost more than my 2nd Def 110 did so I won't be getting any in the near future :(

[Oilworker]

Here you can see how the portal works...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/07/993.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/07/994.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/07/995.jpg

Sadly MaxiDrive is not making any drop boxes anymore and they´re very rare to find, too.

[stig0000]

with them been a straght cut gear, do they wine at speeds??

and how dose it handle? it would need custom steering and all that wouldent it

[Oilworker]

A lot of readers worried about the "noise" made by the gears, but I don´t hear them. Really. All I hear is the thread of the MTs.

You can keep your originial steering. I recommend upgrading the steering damper though.

Handling of the Defender has greatly improved. Even the turning radius is slightly smaller :D

[VladTepes]

That's cracking !!!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/1507.jpg


it's an expensive way of making a low-mount winch into a high mount though !

[slug_burner]

Could you do something with the guts of an LT230?

[pc3]

That's cracking !!!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/1507.jpg


it's an expensive way of making a low-mount winch into a high mount though !

I just love the mags !! how can you get these rims ? what are they ? can they mount straight on to a PUMA ?

[slt]

I just love the mags !! how can you get these rims ? what are they ? can they mount straight on to a PUMA ?

Somewhere else, Oily mentioned they were Hutchinson WA-0492s
Rock Monster Specs - Mercedes G-Wagon (http://www.rockmonsterwheels.com/new492.htm)

[Oilworker]

Could you do something with the guts of an LT230?

What would you need for the LT230?

[Oilworker]

I just love the mags !! how can you get these rims ? what are they ? can they mount straight on to a PUMA ?

With the offset and the bolt-pattern of the Mercedes G wagon (mine) you´ll need an adaptor (spacer) but Wolfgang Tibus is currently working on that as he´s had quite a few requests from people wanting to mount these wheels on their Defender.

[100inch]

But what I like most about this build is the 130 base. Seen way to many 90 s with drop axles, who do not work at all. Just IMO, though. m

[Oilworker]

Yepp, and what´s most amazing is, that a lot of people don´t realize it´s a 130 :o:D:D
I had the truck on display in Billing and so many LR enthusiasts of many years came over and congratulated me to the 110 I had build :)
The proportions are finally right!!!

[prith]

Wow! Nice 130. What does it cost to do his upgrade? Can it be done on a defender 110, 1990 with a 200tdi which has sailsbury rear axle? What is the size of the tyres and rims. Also does one need to change the brake hoses to extended ones and does one need to change the standard propshafts to extrem propshafts.

What advantage does the portals give over standard axles other than a huge groud clearance.

[lardy]

great looking motor guess he has spare chassis's laying around to compensate for his driving lol

[dullbird]

pretty sure this was the 130 we saw at billing....ad a lot more stickers on it though.

we also had a chat to the guy that owns the company that is currently making a bolt on portal for the rover axle....

ANDDDD he also makes heavy duty axles 8/10mm thick quite impressive no need for a diff guard the axle is so strong.

[Oilworker]

Hi,

yes this was the 130 that was on the show in Billing. Either at the Silverline or the Trekk / Offroad Trading stand.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1523.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1524.jpg

These drop boxes bolt straight onto the Rover Axle.
They will fit any Defender and there are different brake setups (disc/caliper) available.
The bottom flange is available for any bolt pattern.
I would reccomend the Salisbury rear axle though!

These portals have, by now, done 6500 miles (on road) and 1000 miles (offroad)....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1525.jpg

...and after 5000 miles we took them fully apart at Wolfgang Tibus´workshop and found....nothing! Gears looking great and no damage at all. Two seals from the CTIS were damaged, but as we found out that´s a "normal" service product from this manufacturer. Lesson learned, machined something ourselves and not buying these seals from the german automaker anymore....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1526.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1527.jpg

These portals can also be fitted to just about any other car/truck as Wolfgang Tibus (www.Tibus-Offroad.com) has them for the Jeep and Mercedes G wagon, too.
An alternative gearing will be offered later this year.

You´ll need longer brake lines but everything can be shipped to you as a full set and then it´s max. 2 days in the workshop before you´re back on the road.

Alternatively you can also order a full set of axles (LR Defender or other or custom), with the bolt-on portals pre-installed and then you have just what you need ready to swap and get back on the road.

Tibus can build just about any axle for almost any purpose and, as one can see on YouTube, strong enough to support 54" tyres on 400+bhp trucks.

Last, 2 shots of the new twin-motor expedition/work-winch....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1528.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1529.jpg

(Don´t worry about the cables on the winch motors, it was a quick install before I had to race to catch the ferry and by now they are properly covered)

So long,

Robert

[Oilworker]

Oh, these portals have a downside, too :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1302.jpg

as the mechanic in at my local LR workshop had to find out when doing some repairs....ö

[grover7488]

Robert your rig is Freakin unbelieveable!! :o:cool::twisted:

With our government laws (not allowing much lift or tyre size increase from factory specs) portals would be excellent - [the 'fun' police have probably already canned them tho :(]

re Wolfgangs website - does he have an english version :angel: my german is way worse than my english........

[uninformed]

please explain how the handling has improved with the portals??????

cheers,
Serg

[TwoUp]

G'day,
Have you measured or experienced any overheating at the portal gears?

Lateral stress loading,
Have you whitnessed any stress (weld fractures or anything) from using the portals in hard driving.

Now the Portals allow for a solid axel so what is on offer have you contemplated this?

Any info welcomed :)

Regards,
PeterW

[Oilworker]

Robert your rig is Freakin unbelieveable!! :o:cool::twisted:

With our government laws (not allowing much lift or tyre size increase from factory specs) portals would be excellent - [the 'fun' police have probably already canned them tho :(]

re Wolfgangs website - does he have an english version :angel: my german is way worse than my english........

Thanx.

But please explaint to me why, in the home of MaxiDrive and Marks4x4 Portas, it shouldn´t be possible to drive bolt-on portals?
German laws are tough and a pain but it passed without any problems.
They knew what we´re up to and sanctioned it.
With the tyre size and overall gearing change (drop box and transfer case) my revs and speedo match again and that´s most important to them.

I have spoken with other countries MOT in Europe and they don´t sound opposed.


Regarding the handling improvement:
Well, steering has become much easier and the turning radius is recognizably reduzed.
It´s a few factors coming together, I think. The Proflex shocks are pretty good and with the remapped/reprogrammed ECU from Allisport, the increased with of the axle (wheel centre - wheel centre) it´s just fun to drive.

I am planning to shot a film about the truck later this month, then you´ll understand. Sofar almost everyone I allowed a ride enjoyed it so much that I had to sweet talk them out of the drivers seat again :o


Wolfgang Tibus´ website is seemingly under construction, at last.
I am putting together an overview for my website and will have it online early this week, it´ll then have all the information from his website, too.

[Oilworker]

G'day,
Have you measured or experienced any overheating at the portal gears?

Lateral stress loading,
Have you whitnessed any stress (weld fractures or anything) from using the portals in hard driving.

Now the Portals allow for a solid axel so what is on offer have you contemplated this?

Any info welcomed :)

Regards,
PeterW

G´day Peter,

sofar there has been no overheating in any kind of driving. I will install a few sensors next week to fully document the temperatures, but even after straight 600km on the highway at speeds ranging from 110km/h to 137km/h, I could still touch the drop box housing without burning myself.

For the rear I would always recommend a Salisbury axle, I have used mine from the 110 that I raced with. The front is still standard.
All interior components are standard, except for the two ARB lockers.

I am thinking about, after have a long chat with Dave Ashcroft at his workshop, to use his shafts in the front axle and on the next axle service will install his 3.5 ring/pinion set.

If you need to reinforce your axles is fully dependable on your driving and purposes. It´s no problem to use Dana 44 or Dana 60 axles with these drop boxes, which is what Wolfgang Tibus as chosen to do with his Rallye 110...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1509.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1510.jpg

He can also build Dana60 axles for LR Defender or build just about any other axle you need and spec. The Dana60 conversion would give you a much wider selection of diff-ratios, too.
Other than that you can also use the conversion of www.RoverTracks.com (http://www.RoverTracks.com)

So long,

Robert

[uninformed]

there have been a few vehicles around Australia engineered and rego'd with MD and Marks portals.

re handling: put aside the shocks and engine mods, I agree that the track width CAN be a positive improvent, but it will amplify axle roll axis angle and bump steer. Adding portals increases the unsprung mass which may help COG but wont help axle/shock loading over bumps etc. Link geometry wasnt designed for portals. Yes it works....but as an example, changing nothing but to portals 5 inch drop you need a front radius arm about 1400mm long to retain stock geometry...

sometime emotion gets in the way of clear thinking....but you cant change the laws of phsyics.

Not knocking these in anyway. I believe them to be a great product and idea.

but bolting them on like anything can have its negative effects as well as positive

cheers,
Serg

[Oilworker]

Sure the geometry is changed, but in case of the Defender on 35" tyres its still within the margins that allow for safe driving.
Using rims with a different (lesser) offset will definitly worsen the handling, which is why I choose these rims.

The unsprung weight is increased by about 20kg per side, compared to the original setup.

[Oilworker]

G´day,

just a quick update on legalizing the portal conversion in the UK:



I was talking to a VOSA inspector the other day about getting your motor legal in the UK. His take on it was that because LR had already gone down the type approval route with their own portal conversion back in the late '80s, there would be no issue with fitting as long as the kit had CE approval. TUV approval is CE approval so shouldn't be a problem.


The portal drop boxes are CE approved.

Among others, I am currently working on the tyre inflation system (CTIS) and just found a great system and the manufacturer of my battery management system, too.....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1342.jpg

This is just a preview, fitting the block to the wheel and taking the dimensions for the connectors & cover-/protection-plate.
The system will be fitted to the wheel and available for the Silverline Blindo wheels later, too.

The controll unit can be pre-programmed to 12 different pressure settings (e.g. highway - offroad - sand and different load settings) and constantly displays all 4 tyre pressures. Pressure control at predefined intervalls or, as in my setup, whenever I start the car.
All tyres can be inflated seperately and pressure drop, we tested on a truck setup, was from 4.0 bar to 1.0 bar in 20 seconds, refill time depends on your compressor´s flow rate.

So long, I´ll keep you updated :)

[Oilworker]

It´s not over yet and there´s been a lot of things going on in the past months...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1298.jpg
LRO Show Billing at Silverline Stand (Thanx for the invitation to Andy and for the hospitality to Chris!)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1299.jpg
LRO Show Peterborough (Thanx Andy for the hospitality!)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1300.jpg
In Paris for the Autosalon 2010

Taking a few measurements...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1301.jpg

A blown seal and the discovery of hight...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1302.jpg

The installation of a custom made set of progressive heavy duty coil springs which are 1.5" longer and fully replace the rear twin coil setup on the 130...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1303.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1304.jpg

and of course the current status: 26,000km (16,155miles) on bolt-on portals and 2,000km on the progressive HD coils (without sway-bars!)

And of course a lot of work, too...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1305.jpg

..not to forget the occasional meeting with friends to discuss Tibus´s products after a nice little test drive...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1306.jpg
...so if you need a nice set of portals or a winch, just ask Chris.

[Oilworker]

As I am waiting vor my full external roofrack to arrive I am playing a little with photoshop to find out which expedition cabin would fit best for the rear....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1296.jpg

...or...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/1297.jpg

I want all sides to be opened and a few extras as well, will have to find out with Malte if he can build it that way.

For the time being I will build a open utility rack for the tray, which will be slightly lower than the external roll cage on the cab.
I am working on the wooden template at the moment and as soon as I like it I will start bending tubes.

Advice is welcome, as is criticism.

[TwoUp]

G'day Oilworker,
Finaly received a reply from QLD Transport re-portals. Only took just over two months for the reply. I have to detail more info, but am used to this as I had to deal with them extensively for the Chev upgrade. Have sent an email back to Wolfgang for info and I am dealing with a local authority.

Good to hear the longer term outcomes for your portals/ car. This is encouraging.

Have a 4L80E gearbox being built at the moment with manual lockup and a 500X300 oil cooler to keep all things going for the longer term. It also has lower 1st and 2nd gears.

It all takes time, but I am able to wait.

Regards,
PeterW

[uninformed]

G'day Oilworker,
Finaly received a reply from QLD Transport re-portals. Only took just over two months for the reply. I have to detail more info, but am used to this as I had to deal with them extensively for the Chev upgrade. Have sent an email back to Wolfgang for info and I am dealing with a local authority.

Good to hear the longer term outcomes for your portals/ car. This is encouraging.

Have a 4L80E gearbox being built at the moment with manual lockup and a 500X300 oil cooler to keep all things going for the longer term. It also has lower 1st and 2nd gears.

It all takes time, but I am able to wait.

Regards,
PeterW

Can you share more about the certifing of portals on a LR in Qld?

cheers,
Serg

[TwoUp]

Happy to share Champ, you must understand that what I have done in the past (Chev) has been a result of perservence and a K'n a lot of reaserach. I don't know maybe three years to have the motor. It may be the same for the driveline. Who knows?

I do not give a tinkers cuss about off subject info.

I am easily identified, can you be? Happy to share but............. You can PM me or post.

Regards,
PeterW

[uninformed]

Happy to share Champ, you must understand that what I have done in the past (Chev) has been a result of perservence and a K'n a lot of reaserach. I don't know maybe three years to have the motor. It may be the same for the driveline. Who knows?

I do not give a tinkers cuss about off subject info.

I am easily identified, can you be? Happy to share but............. You can PM me or post.

Regards,
PeterW

ummmm.... not really sure what you are getting at???

it was a serious question as it may pertain to me in the near future. would you prefer me to PM you?

cheers,
Serg

[TwoUp]

uninformred,
Yes PM is Ok and this thread is Ok just now. I have some info on the upgrade. It will take time. I have not any info back from Wolfgang at this time. I do however have two Eng persons avaialable for calcs etc. Reading Oilworkers post (in part) gives some hope. I do not have any info on how I would stress the drivetrain and the obvious height on braking issue. Loading at the stub is another issue. I do not want any guessig persons throwing away comments without calculations to back them up. They would need factual info that could be readily available and relied on.

I have been through a bit to get my vehicle where it is. This is a good vehicle and at time of writing am off the road (again) for upgrades. I have seperation issues.

Regards,
PeterW

[Oilworker]

Peter,

which calculations do you need?
From the data I have I can run just about any analysis on the computer and will have the Rhino at a military testing facility sometime next month.

All I need is your wishlist.

So long,

Robert

[uninformed]

sounds great. But will those figures mean anything without stock numbers to compare to???

Id be looking at A frame ball joint load under acceleration and HEAVY braking.

same with radius arms at axle end.

bending stress put on axle case just outside spring mount.

rotational forces under HEAVY braking on axle flange mount where portals bolt on

cheers,
Serg

[Oilworker]

Okidoke,

will take a bit but can be done. It ain´t no magic nowadays :)

Cheers,

Robert

[uninformed]

not here to hijack, and as twoup is in the process of doing his, do his requirements first

Serg

[wagoo]

I may have missed it but what type of CV joints are used on this conversion?
I assume they would need to have a shorter outer shaft, or a plug in shaft like earlier RangeRovers and the KAM cvs with fusable outer shafts.
Whilst on the subject does anyone have details on the so called heavy duty cvs that Maxidrive offered with their portals? and are the cvs still available ?
wagoo.

Edit. just a laymans thoughts on stress calculations, but if a portal gives a 100mm height increase, wouldn't that be similar to having a 200mm larger diameter tyre, assuming wheel rim inset can be changed to bring scrub radius back to standard?

[uninformed]

I may have missed it but what type of CV joints are used on this conversion?
I assume they would need to have a shorter outer shaft, or a plug in shaft like earlier RangeRovers and the KAM cvs with fusable outer shafts.
Whilst on the subject does anyone have details on the so called heavy duty cvs that Maxidrive offered with their portals? and are the cvs still available ?
wagoo.

Edit. just a laymans thoughts on stress calculations, but if a portal gives a 100mm height increase, wouldn't that be similar to having a 200mm larger diameter tyre, assuming wheel rim inset can be changed to bring scrub radius back to standard?


AFAIK, the MD portals only used RR cv's with their custom stub shaft (hytuff) to drive portal...they may have offered a anti burst ring, which was interference fitted to the outside of the cv bell...4140 I think???

123mm for MD....but yes 100mm would mean a 200mm tyre but still only 100mm height rise... someone smarter than me will explain scrub radius...but it obvisously was still ok as Mal found it no concern...an he would have DEFINITLY looked at it.

Serg

Ps he only runs stock LR rims on his vehicle no offset change...I dont think you could or want to space them further in than stock LR rims due to calipers etc... and as you have raised the COG you need to increase wheel track width for stability...123mm lift and 170mm track increase is pretty even...(As COG goes up you need more and more track width, more than the COG raise)

[Oilworker]

I may have missed it but what type of CV joints are used on this conversion?
I assume they would need to have a shorter outer shaft, or a plug in shaft like earlier RangeRovers and the KAM cvs with fusable outer shafts.....

This would be the CV in my set of portals...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/445.jpg

[uninformed]

This would be the CV in my set of portals...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/445.jpg

Ashcroft, re machined stub??????

[Oilworker]

:o Okay that was too easy, the next image quiz will be tougher...just have to find something on my truck ;)

[uninformed]

what spline count/profile did they go for on the cv stub?

[TwoUp]

Oilworker,
Sorry about the delay as I have been away.
The dot points from Motor Transport are as follow;

Overall vehicle height increase, (I supplied the tyre info and height intfo based on your vehicle and the portals, detaile by Wolfgang in an email sent earlier). Guessing that the info requested is from a stock Defender.

Increase in wheel track, (I supplied the tyre centreline info from Wolfgang). Guess again that the info is from stock.

Increase load on the vehicle's stub axle, (this is out of my league).

Brake testing, (?) guess I will have to achieve some speed and lock up the brakes, guessing though.

Details of any additional bracing used, ( do not if any is used).

The information has to be supplied by an "Approved Person" whom is an Engineer. I have such a fellow available to do so. The letter also says "Such information is to include but is not limited to the following", being the dot points above.

I am awaiting some local info as well.

Any help welcomed!!

By the by Oilworker, are you running Dana 40 drive gear?

Thanks for your time.

Regards,
PeterW

[uninformed]

Oilworker,
Sorry about the delay as I have been away.
The dot points from Motor Transport are as follow;

Overall vehicle height increase, (I supplied the tyre info and height intfo based on your vehicle and the portals, detaile by Wolfgang in an email sent earlier). Guessing that the info requested is from a stock Defender.

Increase in wheel track, (I supplied the tyre centreline info from Wolfgang). Guess again that the info is from stock.

Increase load on the vehicle's stub axle, (this is out of my league).

Brake testing, (?) guess I will have to achieve some speed and lock up the brakes, guessing though.

Details of any additional bracing used, ( do not if any is used).

The information has to be supplied by an "Approved Person" whom is an Engineer. I have such a fellow available to do so. The letter also says "Such information is to include but is not limited to the following", being the dot points above.

I am awaiting some local info as well.

Any help welcomed!!

By the by Oilworker, are you running Dana 40 drive gear?

Thanks for your time.

Regards,
PeterW

Peter,

by stub axle do they mean spindle?

cheers,
Serg

[isuzurover]

Oilworker,
Sorry about the delay as I have been away.
The dot points from Motor Transport are as follow;

Overall vehicle height increase, (I supplied the tyre info and height intfo based on your vehicle and the portals, detaile by Wolfgang in an email sent earlier). Guessing that the info requested is from a stock Defender.

Increase in wheel track, (I supplied the tyre centreline info from Wolfgang). Guess again that the info is from stock.

Increase load on the vehicle's stub axle, (this is out of my league).

Brake testing, (?) guess I will have to achieve some speed and lock up the brakes, guessing though.

Details of any additional bracing used, ( do not if any is used).

The information has to be supplied by an "Approved Person" whom is an Engineer. I have such a fellow available to do so. The letter also says "Such information is to include but is not limited to the following", being the dot points above.

I am awaiting some local info as well.

Any help welcomed!!

By the by Oilworker, are you running Dana 40 drive gear?

Thanks for your time.

Regards,
PeterW

An approved person is usually someone approved to certify the particular mod. They are usually not engineers.

As you state the first 2 are easy to calculate using specs from a stock defender.

The increase in static load on the stub is also easy. Dynamic loading (during acceleration and braking) is slightly more difficult, but not overly.

Bush65 doesn't seem to be around much lately, but he can usually do these sort of calcs in his head...

Brake testing is necessary in NSW for roadworthies. They use an accelerometer. I assume that is what DOT are proposing?

[INter674]

there is a GU Nissan in Tas with portals, originally approved in Victoria I believe. Off road it is not much better than standard as the ride height and overall spring travel has been kept to an absolute minimum resulting in many cocked wheels.

But this could be advantageous to avoiding attention as Tas rego officials will have nothing to do with portals (I enquired some time ago) and unfortunately if the Police or Mermaids so desire, you'll be put off the road with them.

Worse still, the Police/Mermaids here can (and do) put you off the road even if the mod is approved by another State! They can (and do) deem such mods (and including engine mods like turbos or even retro fitted EFI) to be dangerous or at odds with the National Code or the manufacturer's OE specs, triggering a merry-go-round of bureaucracy to get approval!! So much for National consistency.

PS FYI Current Transport Dept assessment time for exisitng or intended Tas vehicle mods (that is, before any engineering assessment and certification phase) is running out to 8 weeks:eek:

[wagoo]

I think I read on Marks Adaptors site that their portals have also been approved in south australia, and that the axles have been given a higher load rating too.
Re TwoUps post.Portals do not of themselves increase stub axle loading because the stubs/spindles are still concentric with the wheels. The only alteration to stub axle loading will, just as on non portal axles, depend on tyre diameter and wheel offset. If anything, negative offset rims should reduce stub axle loading.This would be the case with Maxidrive portals that retain the standard landrover full floating hubs and spindles.
Providing the front radius arms and rear A frame/lower links locate the axles adequately, braking performance once again should be equivelant to that with non portal axles with the same tyre size.Front antidive may be more exaggerated.
The main issue the way I see it will be calculating the increased loadings on the axle housing/ swivel housings/ swivel pins, bearings etc, and to quantify the positive effect of the additional bottom swivel bearing and its brace back to the axle housing. I would personally like to see heavily inset wheel rims more resembling half dualls to get the scrub radius back to something close to standard even if you must use larger diameter or split rims to clear the brake calipers, because I would hate to have a sudden tyre failure at speed with aftermarket portals, particularly with bias ply offroad tyres such Simex ETs or Interco TSLs.To compensate for the loss of stability due to the increased height the front/rear axle/banjo housings should first be widend and reinforced to obtain the desired track width increase,not rely on the thickness of the portals and wheel offset. This of course would require longer upper halfshafts, but if you are going to do it right you've got to do it right. Half dualls may not look cool but this is the only way I can see aftermarket portals getting engineering approval from a really competant engineer.
Wagoo.

PS, What are Mermaids ?

[INter674]

mermaids are Transport Inspectors...it is truckie language, has to do with them using scales to measure weights etc:D

Hopefully one day there will be a truley national approach to vehicle mods whereby approval in one State equals approval in all. It is ironic that the national working party for the Code re vehicle mods consisted of reps from each State who after agreeing to the specs and mod processes then decide to apply different interpretations afterwards. This is very frustrating indeed.

[uninformed]

what is really frustrating is watching guys just over the boarder build rigs with custom link suspension, coil overs, welding to chassis and being able to get it engineered and cert'd......maybe I need to buy a block of dirt....;)

[THE 109]

Serg,

The grass isn't always greener mate,we have rwc's every year and the rego is based on weight instead of number of cylinders.Personalised plates can't be bought outright so they sting you every year.There are good and bad points for each state,just need to pick all the good ones and make them the national rules.

Eric

[isuzurover]

Serg,

The grass isn't always greener mate,we have rwc's every year and the rego is based on weight instead of number of cylinders.Personalised plates can't be bought outright so they sting you every year.There are good and bad points for each state,just need to pick all the good ones and make them the national rules.

Eric

I think Victorians have the best combination of rego prices and mod rules.

In WA the rego on a 110 (based on weight same as NSW) is LESS than 4cyl rego in QLD!

I pity QLD V8 owners who have a smaller engine than I do but are paying twice as much!

[uninformed]

Serg,

The grass isn't always greener mate,we have rwc's every year and the rego is based on weight instead of number of cylinders.Personalised plates can't be bought outright so they sting you every year.There are good and bad points for each state,just need to pick all the good ones and make them the national rules.

Eric

be carefull what you wish for.....could be the nation ends up with QLD regs....but NSW prices :o

id happly pay a bit more rego and do the 1 yearly RWC...and be able to do some sensable mods that would improve the vehicle on and off the road including safety...im not saying let me have at it, but working with mech end for design and following a code of practice for fabrication...

[PAT303]

Having come from NSW and now in WA I'll have WA anyday. Pat

[uninformed]

Having come from NSW and now in WA I'll have WA anyday. Pat

ok...but I dont want to drive 5 days (7 in a LR) to work on my rig.....plus the surf isnt as good as either QLD or NSW...:D

[isuzurover]

ok...but I dont want to drive 5 days (7 in a LR) to work on my rig.....plus the surf isnt as good as either QLD or NSW...:D


??? The beaches are nicer, and the surf is pretty good for 9 months of the year.

[uninformed]

??? The beaches are nicer, and the surf is pretty good for 9 months of the year.

well I havent been there, but have a very good mate that lives, and one that traveled there and seriously considered moving.....both agree that the GC and NSW beaches are nicer and better surf...

Now back to the protals...hope 2up gets the info he needs

[wagoo]

well I havent been there, but have a very good mate that lives, and one that traveled there and seriously considered moving.....both agree that the GC and NSW beaches are nicer and better surf...

Now back to the protals...hope 2up gets the info he needs

I was beginning to wonder what happened to the PROTOLS.:)

[uninformed]

I was beginning to wonder what happened to the PROTOLS.:)

if your going to quote my misspelling atleast get it right....:p

[Oilworker]

Almost done....in the lite-setup as a press car for the 17th Breslau Rallye, where I will be reporting live this year....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/06/642.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/06/643.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/06/644.jpg

So long,

Robert

[chook73]

Hi Robert,

Still looking into suspension, the plan is to fit portals when I can eventually afford them so i dont want to have to re do everything when i do.

How do you think your hd springs would go in a 110? There is a fair bit of continual weight, which, arb bar, roof rack, rear drawers, aux fuel tank, fridge & drop slide and so on. I would prefer a progressive hd coil and haven't been able to find the right one so far. Looking for just under 2" lift as you have.

Regards
Iain

[Oilworker]

Well, I had the same problem. I couldn´t find the proper coil springs I wanted.
I then took my wishlist and experience with the Matzker HT coils (which were a disaster) to TJM, Daams and Eibach. They all listened, laughed and said "No market for that kind of stuff!"

Now I teamed up with a friend of mine and we sourced a heavy industries supplier for coils to make our own.
They are all custom made, though our list of specs is pretty big now and we can already offer "standard" coils.

They are all progressive and you need to weigh your vehicle in standard and preferably in full load. Together with your height increase the new coils are calculated and made.

I guess it may be slightly expensive to ship custom coils to AUS but maybe we can find someone down under who´s interested in making them for you based on our calculations and experience with 110s and 130s?
Sofar we havn´t done any for the 90ty as it´s really more for those 110s that are in daily use and go on overland trips with the familiy and roof tents or the daily driven 130s that all of a sudden are loaded with a camper....

I would also always start with the coils and choose the shox later. 40mm of increase is easily, to my experience, handled by the standard shox and usually you won´t encounter any problems/vibrations in your driveline if you stay below the 2" (50mm) lift.

My latest coils have now covered approx. 31,000km and havn´t changed it height.

So long,

Robert

[chook73]

Hi Robert,

That's great advice thank you, I might be able to source a manufacturer down here, my office is next door to a spring factory they just don't do 4wd springs but seem like they might custom make them for me.

I am heading away for a few days but when I get back I will throw it on the weighbridge and get some weights in the next few weeks as I go on trips and if it's ok with you we can go from there.

Regards
Iain

[deff1]

g'day any luck with getting the portals engineered in Aus
cheer's

[LowRanger]

There are no problems getting a Defender on portals registered in NSW at least

Wayne

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

[lambrover]

Give Suspension Stuff a call he makes custom coils for landrovers, I got my custom 3 inch ultra flexi coils from him, bloody good coil

[Sith]

Trust the Germans to do serious Defender porn !.


It is a wonder Rocco isn't driving it wokka wokka bowww wowww

[Oilworker]

So, the car was finished in time for Bad Kissingen this year....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/966.jpg

...at least most of it....I just run out of time....too many things to do at the moment....

After two days at the show I went to the Breslau Rallye, already bringing the first set of spares to a competitor I know.

Then it was was full week of little sleep, lots of fun and great images....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/967.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/968.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/969.jpg

...at one point there were even canoes crossing the stage :)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/970.jpg

...and a little video....

YouTube - ‪Land Rover Defender 130CC-R(hino)‬‏

So long,

Robert

[wuldfasche]

O.K. I'd like to get this setup on my defender 130. Portals, CTIS and all.

Could anyone point me in the right direction to get this started. The car is registered in VIC.

Wolfgang of Tibus Engineering has indicated an 8 week lead time and then there is shipping time on top of that. In the meantime i'd like to talk to an engineer who's up to speed on portals.

From what i understand a "total" lift of 6" is all that is possible in AU? Is this correct? This would mean just the 4" lift from portals and the larger diameter 35" tyres but no suspension lift?

--> OilWorker; are you going to provide your CTIS solution as a kit?

Cheers,

Sean.

[isuzurover]

O.K. I'd like to get this setup on my defender 130. Portals, CTIS and all.

Could anyone point me in the right direction to get this started. The car is registered in VIC.

Wolfgang of Tibus Engineering has indicated an 8 week lead time and then there is shipping time on top of that. In the meantime i'd like to talk to an engineer who's up to speed on portals.

From what i understand a "total" lift of 6" is all that is possible in AU? Is this correct? This would mean just the 4" lift from portals and the larger diameter 35" tyres but no suspension lift?

--> OilWorker; are you going to provide your CTIS solution as a kit?

Cheers,

Sean.

Talk to Bill / Wagoo on here. He has been involved in building and engineering several vehicles on portals in VIC.

[brendanm]

The Engineer I used is Robert Elliot,located in the south west of Sydney at Bringelly(0403328574). He has done a Bushranger before I spoke to him, so he was fairly comfortable with the modification. The Portals are Maxi-Drive, which have a 5 inch lift and I am running 35 inch tyres. He was happy with the stability and would consider a 37 inch tyre, preferably on a 17 inch rims- pending a swerve test. I asked if I need to come back, if I was to lift the suspension 2 inches. He walked over to the headlight and measured to the ground and said "no, you're OK". This indicated to me that he was more concerned with the limit of headlight height legalities, not total limit of lift. Other things you will need to consider are the width of the front bumper bar which must cover the width of the track. The rear trailing arms will more than likely need to be cranked to not rip the rubbers at the chassis.
Brendan

[deff1]

thats a nice looking 130 brendanm might have to move down south so i can fit portals to mine. As far as i have found Qld wont let me have them:mad:

[wagoo]

The Engineer I used is Robert Elliot,located in the south west of Sydney at Bringelly(0403328574). He has done a Bushranger before I spoke to him, so he was fairly comfortable with the modification. The Portals are Maxi-Drive, which have a 5 inch lift and I am running 35 inch tyres. He was happy with the stability and would consider a 37 inch tyre, preferably on a 17 inch rims- pending a swerve test. I asked if I need to come back, if I was to lift the suspension 2 inches. He walked over to the headlight and measured to the ground and said "no, you're OK". This indicated to me that he was more concerned with the limit of headlight height legalities, not total limit of lift. Other things you will need to consider are the width of the front bumper bar which must cover the width of the track. The rear trailing arms will more than likely need to be cranked to not rip the rubbers at the chassis.
Brendan

Glad to see you got it a together Brendan.It looks great.Perhaps either you or Robert could answer the following.
I've never done portals on radius arm suspension. Mine have always been 3 link arrangements with less compliant bushings. Because the extra leverage of portals exaggerates axle torque reaction and 'bouncing on the bushings' under accelleration and braking, did you notice any adverse affects in braking tests during engineering evaluation? It obviously passed and was deemed acceptable when everything is new and tight, but I'm interested in determining how sensitive portal/radius arms setups are to gradual bushing deterioration. I still have vivid memories of a very scary drive home from work in traffic one evening when a set of aftermarket radius arm bushings suddenly chopped out on a non portalled vehicle I was driving.
Wagoo.

[brendanm]

The braking was one of the biggest hassles. The set up came with series 1 Discovery brake calipers and solid discs. With 35's the stopping was not as good as I had expected. I die ground out the center web of the Defender Calipers which are considerably larger to fit the Portal casting, machined the hub to take some slotted discs. It is better/passable to the Engineer. I think it still could be better. In the future I will look to fit a second set of calipers all round as there is provision on the casting to house them and look at replacing the Master Cylinder or bore out the current one to double the capacity so brake pedal travel isn't doubled in the process.
The shock rubbers got replaced on the rear lower as they had compressed, this was after 90,000kms and 15,000kms with the current set up. $10 was a good bill to get to keep the set up tight and vibration/ knock free. The car handles drives as good as new.
Brendan

[isuzurover]

The braking was one of the biggest hassles. The set up came with series 1 Discovery brake calipers and solid discs. With 35's the stopping was not as good as I had expected. I die ground out the center web of the Defender Calipers which are considerably larger to fit the Portal casting, machined the hub to take some slotted discs. It is better/passable to the Engineer. I think it still could be better. In the future I will look to fit a second set of calipers all round as there is provision on the casting to house them and look at replacing the Master Cylinder or bore out the current one to double the capacity so brake pedal travel isn't doubled in the process.
The shock rubbers got replaced on the rear lower as they had compressed, this was after 90,000kms and 15,000kms with the current set up. $10 was a good bill to get to keep the set up tight and vibration/ knock free. The car handles drives as good as new.
Brendan

Do you have room to swap to the large pistion defender calipers? (or are you running them already?)

[wuldfasche]

Anyone know, or of someone or would be up for fitting my portals and getting all the CTIS to work etc? I'd also need the 1.003:1 high range gears to my transfer case.

I'm looking for a competent mechanic who would be aware of any issues and would make appropriate improvements or changes to the car as required.

i.e. stronger draglink/trackrod etc

--> Brendan, who did yours?

[prith]

What does it cost to convert a 110 to a 110 on portals with all the bells and whistles?

[wuldfasche]

--> Prith

No idea yet.

I'll tell you in a few months what it ended up costing to do my 130...

[slug_burner]

What does it cost to convert a 110 to a 110 on portals with all the bells and whistles?

I think it is about $8k just for the portals so I'd hazard a guess at about $15k all up.

[wuldfasche]

I was quoted €9300 for the 1.16:1 4" raise kit from Tibus Engineering. Although now i am leaning towards the full 1.6:1 5" raise kit which I assume is more or less the same price.

Installation is apparently quite simple (for a competent mechanic)

[uninformed]

Glad to see you got it a together Brendan.It looks great.Perhaps either you or Robert could answer the following.
I've never done portals on radius arm suspension. Mine have always been 3 link arrangements with less compliant bushings. Because the extra leverage of portals exaggerates axle torque reaction and 'bouncing on the bushings' under accelleration and braking, did you notice any adverse affects in braking tests during engineering evaluation? It obviously passed and was deemed acceptable when everything is new and tight, but I'm interested in determining how sensitive portal/radius arms setups are to gradual bushing deterioration. I still have vivid memories of a very scary drive home from work in traffic one evening when a set of aftermarket radius arm bushings suddenly chopped out on a non portalled vehicle I was driving.
Wagoo.

Bill

I know someone running MD portals with custom Radius arms. They are 500mm longer than stock. Using stock mounts at axle and chasis, rubber at chassis and eurethane at the axle. Drives very very well on stock height springs. No diving under brakes. I can ask how it drove on stock arms. For a reference it drives (feels) better than my 2.5 inch liffted 110 ute. We both run very similar size tyres. His wheelbase is 8 inches longer than mine.

cheers
Serg

[brendanm]

To answer a couple of questions.
-Room for Defender Calipers, yes that is what I currently have, though could put on a second set.
-Costs, after the portals you would be looking at diff locks and uprated axles and steering arms. MR Automotive could give you a current price on these. The bills started to add up, from memory the trailing arms and bushes around $500, Front Extended Guards $350, Set of 35 inch tyres $2000, Custom rims and internal beadlocks $1800, Engineers report $900, Machining of the rear tail shaft to suit longer diff centre $250. I also had a bit of mucking around with the brakes (though the ones from Tibus are inclusive of brakes). All up it was around a $18000 hit.
If you are going to get a bear, make it a Grizzly. Once you start, got to be finished properly.
Brendan

[wuldfasche]

Tibus' V2 portal (the 1.16:1 4") includes only the rear brake rotor. The other brake parts you have to use from your car.

[chook73]

Out of interest if these are engineered and registered in NSW are they considered roadworthy in all states?

Regards
Iain

[Oilworker]

.....

--> OilWorker; are you going to provide your CTIS solution as a kit?

Cheers,

Sean.

Hi Sean,

just got back from Billing and a little trip around the UK, shooting Wildcats and testdriving the Range Rover Evoque.

Yes, the CTIS or in this case TPAS will come as a full kit. The latest version can be programmed by the user as it comes with a connector and software.

[Oilworker]

I was quoted €9300 for the 1.16:1 4" raise kit from Tibus Engineering. Although now i am leaning towards the full 1.6:1 5" raise kit which I assume is more or less the same price.

Installation is apparently quite simple (for a competent mechanic)

The 4" drop boxes can be installed in a good days work and won´t need any brackets as support to the axle, except if you do serious offroading or use them for racing.

The 5" drop boxes need the brackets to be welded to the axle, but the alignment is pretty easy and I will prepare sort of an installation manual from all the picture that I have.

[Oilworker]

I dare say, you won´t need any longer radius or trailing arms....

http://www.rallyewerk.com/LR-130CC-Rhino/LR-130CC-Rhino_Articulation_web1000t.jpg

The full story is in the upcoming LRO International magazine...

[wagoo]

I think it is about $8k just for the portals so I'd hazard a guess at about $15k all up.

A mate of mine who has Volvo portals on a Cj7 Jeep/RangeRover Chassied hybrid was telling me the other day that used Volvo axle assemblies are now bringing around $9000 a pair. On top of that the LR suspension components still have to be fabricated and fitted, plus the cost of disc brake conversion etc.
Spare parts supply, availabilty, and prices are also a concern.
In light of that the Tibus portals would appear to present very good value.

My personal opinion. For Rover type differential assemblies I don't believe the 1.16 ratio portals are worth having because all you are basically getting is increased ground clearance, without the benefits of a greatly improved effective strength increase of the differential, upper halfshafts and cv joints that the lower 1.6:1 ratio portals will give.Also more reduction at the hubs gives less torque roll to the R/H/S on steep ugly offcamber climbs.
For Defenders.fitting your transfercase with 1.003:1 high range gears plus the usual fitment of 35''ish diametre tyres will go a long way towards restoring your highway cruising speed. Another thought is that I doubt that any Australian Road Traffic Authority approved engineer worth his diploma would approve of the 4'' portal conversion without the support brace 3rd king pin fitted. Those puny swivel balls, pins and bolts won't hack it for long unless you potter around like GrandMa.
I'll handpass the response to the longer radius arm question to Serg (Uninformed) or John (bush 65).The antidive geometry under brakes is greatly exaggerated with portals, but as I've only ever done portals with 3 link setups i don't know if it is a cause for any concern.

Wagoo.

[uninformed]

IMO......

from everything I have read, and seeing using portals and comparing them to a non portal vehicle on same tyres.....

attaching portals to a stock rover, will increase COG, wheeltrack, anti-dive and anit-squat. Roll center heights will increase also. Scrub radius is affected as well. What would remain the same if nothing but portals added is the front and rear axle roll axis angle and the vehicle aixs angle.

longer arms: Not just looking at articulation, but road handling and trasnmition of hp to traction: Draw a straight line from contact patch to chassis mount center line of the radius arms and trailing arms.... do this on a stock vehicle then do it on one with portals...now add your bigger tyres and spring lift...the steeper the worse it is, more so in the front as its trying to lead forward as the wheels go over a bump.....the rear is going up in backward motion so not as bad but still can change things in a climb etc.

Food for thought: all the RA-Aframe coil rovers are based on the original RangeRover. This vehicle and its components were purpose built for itself....so all the suspension links etc designed to work around the wheelbase,COG, tyre size etc of THAT vehicle and work as a whole. Changing just the tyre size alone changes the peramiters of how this vehicle works....is it still acceptable,does it still do ok? Yes, but not at its best.

a coil type defender on stock height springs and 750-16s requires the RA's to be 500mm longer than stock to maintain the same contact patch - chassis mount centerline angle as a original stock RangeRover on 205-16's

I have driven and passengerd in a defender type vehicle that has portals,stock height springs and 750-16s with longer RA'S...it handles on the road better and smoother over corrigations than my Defender with 2.5 in lift and 235/85-16s... I would have the better shocks, spring rates would be on par id say...The portal'd rig shows no sign of diving under brakes either.

Bushes: the portals will put more stress into the axle end bushes and making the RA's longer will compound this...BUT using eurethane will help and they are easily checked and replaced as needed.

Adding a higher (like MR Automotive) ball joint will help with the axle roational forces in the rear.

NB: there is way more to this but this is enough to give an idea and it really is person choice...plus you may be restricted to what you can do legally where you live.

Personally I would build a portal'd rig for road use with longer RA's, Trialing arms and A frame and I bet it would handle better on and off road.

cheers,
Serg

[slug_burner]

Thanks for the above Serg,

If it is not too much to ask would you or one of the other learned people help me understand some of the info that has been posted?

I have snipped a bit below to which I will refer to first off.

Increase CoG stands to reason that if you raised the weighty components like the axles assemblies (diffs etc) and everything that sits on the chassis rails up you will get a higher CoG. I think I got that bit.

Increase wheel track I expect is simply due to adding the width of the drop boxes to the end of the axle assemblies therefore you get the two drop box widths worth of increased track (or there abouts).


Effects on anti dive and anti squat. This is where I start to lose it a bit. the alignment of all the bits that join the axle assembly to the chassis do not change so why do we change the dive and squat characteristics of the vehicle?

I don't know what it is that determines roll centre but I would expect that if CoG has gone up so would roll centre. Although I can understand what CoG means and how you could determine it but not sure about roll centre. Had a quick look and this appears to cover it

http://medlem.spray.se/bmw02hemsida/filer/roadholding/fig-14.gif

Scrub radius I think I can also see the effect that you could expect given the following image. As long as scrub radius and pivot radius are the same thing, then with portals the steering axis inclination line will project to somewhere on the outside of the tyre if the drop boxes are high enough.

http://medlem.spray.se/bmw02hemsida/filer/roadholding/fig-5.gif


Please correct me where I have goofed and please give me a few more clews as to the reasons as to why dive and squat characteristics will be impacted.

I don't know if any one else is keen to know or if this is just kindergarden for auto engineering and I should go do my homework elsewhere!

Next time I will ask more about the length of RAs and TAs, although some scaled drawings might help and I will think about it a bit more.

Thanks in anticipation of some informative responses.



IMO......

from everything I have read, and seeing using portals and comparing them to a non portal vehicle on same tyres.....

attaching portals to a stock rover, will increase COG, wheeltrack, anti-dive and anit-squat. Roll center heights will increase also. Scrub radius is affected as well. What would remain the same if nothing but portals added is the front and rear axle roll axis angle and the vehicle aixs angle.
...............................


Serg

[uninformed]

Independent suspension geometry is different to live axle..... I will try and dig up some info.

[Bush65]

....

Bushes: the portals will put more stress into the axle end bushes and making the RA's longer will compound this...

cheers,
Serg
IMHO longer radius arms will be slightly beneficial for the load on axle end bushes, but nowhere near enough to counteract the extra load from portals and/or larger tyres.


...

Effects on anti dive and anti squat. This is where I start to lose it a bit. the alignment of all the bits that join the axle assembly to the chassis do not change so why do we change the dive and squat characteristics of the vehicle?

I don't know what it is that determines roll centre but I would expect that if CoG has gone up so would roll centre. Although I can understand what CoG means and how you could determine it but not sure about roll centre. ...
IMHO it helps to remember what dive and squat is, and what causes it before getting into the anti's.

During acceleration and deceleration (deceleration is really an acceleration in the opposite direction to motion), the resulting inertia causes the force acting on the suspension springs to change. During braking the load on the front springs increase and that on the rears reduces - so the front of the vehicle dives down and the rear raises. During acceleration the reverse happens and the rear squats.

The force causing acceleration is applied at the tyre contact with the road and has to be transferred through the suspension links to the vehicle sprung mass. The geometry of the suspension links can be arranged so that the additional force that occurs in the links during acceleration will occur in a direction so that a component of it opposes the dive or squat - this component force is called anti dive or squat.

100% anti dive/squat results when the anti dive/squat force is equal but opposite to the dive/squat forces. Note it can exceed (greater than 100%), but is better if somewhat less than 100%.

Even if the geometry of the suspension remains the same, increasing the COG by larger tyres or portals will increase the dive/squat forces. The anti forces can only increase (to restore previous anti %) by changing the suspension geometry.

The location of the roll centre differs with suspension types and geometry. What is better, depends upon the use. For example a F1 vehicle the roll centre may be below the road surface, while for off road a high roll centre is best - F1 has very stiff suspension to reduce roll, where offroad we want suspension flex, and a higher roll centre reduces roll (no roll would occur if the roll centre was at the same height as the COG.

With a coil sprung RRC, Disco I, or defender, the front roll centre is near the midway point on the panhard rod, and the rear roll centre is at the A-frame ball joint - these are the points that don't move when the axle articulates, ie. the suspension rolls about these points (actually it is the sprung mass that rolls about these points).

[series3]

Hi Brendan I'm pretty sure I went past you on the highway between Beresfield and Hexam yesterday? I was in a white 110 and snuck a late wave in.

Sam

[wagoo]

John /Serg,with regards to body roll, the Roll axis is really the centre height above the spring saddles on the axle housings that the sprung mass rolls around, is it not? If the track width increase was sufficient to maintain original centre of gravity, then portals on their own,or even with larger tyres will not alter the vehicles roll centre and lateral rollover angle, would that be correct?
Scrub radius is still an aspect of fitting portals to standard axles that i'm not too happy about. Power steering and constant 4wd does tend to mask the bump steer effect of a large scrub radius. My own conversion on an old series 2a with manual steering and part time 4wd, although quite manageable if driven slowly over rough broken terrain, does give me a real indication of how potentially dangerous things could get with a sudden tyre failure on the road at speed. I've mentioned it before on an earlier post(#58) that i believe the track width increase should ideally occurr at the axle housing and the wheel rim back spacing increased to restore the relationship of the tyres contact patch and the point where the king pin axis meets the road.This modification, which I intend to do on my own vehicle before It resumes service as a daily driver, will require the larger internal diameter of a 16'' split rim which would have the appearance of the front wheels of a dual wheel truck. Not pretty but much safer IMO.

Wagoo.

[uninformed]

Ill try to add a little more to what John and Bill have said.

Let it be known, im just a carpenter and have only a very little experience with this stuff. Bill and John's Knowledge AND experience is well beyond what I will probably ever have.

John, I was unsure about the length of the RA and how it affects the bush loading. But I was sure that the portals and or increase in tyres would increase load on them.

Basicly, anti-squat, in the style designed into rear suspension to resist squating during acceleration, is a combination of: Wheelbase, Cog, and in the case of the rear of a coil rover (RR,Def, D1), the relation of the rear trailing arms and the Aframe. When viewd from the side of the vehicle, if you draw a line from the center of the ball joint through the chassis end bush. Draw another line from the center of the axle end bush of trailing arm, through the chassis end bush....where these to meet is the Convergence point. Now draw a line from rear tyre contact patch through this convergence point and extend it....where it passes over the center line of the front axle determins the amount of squat....if it was to pass through the COG exactly at the center line of front axle it would be 100% anti-squat...above it would be greater than 100%

Anit-dive is similar but a bit different. (John or Bill may well correct me here??) It is a combination of: Wheelbase, COG, front to rear brake bias and link geometry....looking side on again, you have wheelbase, and COG. drawing a line from contact patch through the chassis end bush of radius arm (RA from here on in). Divinding the wheelbase into brake bias percent, ie if the front braking was 60%, then you would have a vertical line drawn 60% of the wheelbase from the front axle center line. Where the contact patch - RA bush line interesects this brake bias line will determine anti-dive. If it were to intersect directly at this line and also through the COG line, it would be 100%

Bill, when you say roll axis, I belive you mean roll center height. There are 2 types of Roll axis:

#1 Axle roll axis: this being front and rear. Usually expressed in understeer or oversteer...Front: in this case is determined by the angle of the RA....more specificly the axle center line, as the 2 RA bushes at axle end disect the axle centerline, and the center of chassis end bush....So if the axle center line and the chassis bush center are level, ie neither angling up or down from front to back, this would be 0° front axle roll axis.

Rear: In our case again, it is determined by the angle of rear trailing arm (because they are parrallel). That is to say, drawing a line through the axle end bush of TA through the chassis end bush center...Once again if it was level, no angle up or down from back to front, it would be 0° rear axle roll axis.

From what I have seen, most stock rovers are ABOUT 0°-2° front axle roll axis...as this is a positive 2° it is roll oversteer. In the rear on stock rovers it is somewhere about 4°-6° degrees rear axle roll axis, roll oversteer.

#2 Vehicle roll axis: this is determind by the front and rear Roll center heights: Front, is the mid point of the chassis (when viewed from the front) where it disects the panhard rod...so draw a vertical line through the mid point of chassis and where it intersects the panhard is your front Roll center height. Rear, as the convergence points for the upper links, that is the A frame or Y or wishbone, is the ball joint. So the center of the ball joint is the rear axle Roll center height. Draw a line through the front and rear Roll center heights(when viewd from the side) and that is the Vehicle Roll axis.... Generally speaking, a higher Roll center in the rear makes the rear let go first when traction is lost through a corner.

As John said regarding roll center heights: higher in 4wd's....but of coarse there is effects, that is a higher roll center makes a vehicle more stable say on side slopes but makes it harder for the suspension to work....look at desert racing trucks with floppy rolly bodies...they have a lower roll center but there suspension is very supple and keeps power to the ground...(this is a very basic idea of the concept I have given, just remember one small change can have alot of different effetcs)

things to consider...not only would portals OR larger tyres change dive and squat, but wheelbase alone also does, that is to say a defender 90,110 and 130 all have different AS/AD numbers even though they share the same suspension links, tyre size etc.

I hope I got all that right....my brains a bit fried now haha I will add more later...maybe if I havent got it all wrong hahahahah

[uninformed]

thinking out loud about your question Bill....lets take a stcok defender and all its geometry etc....now if you just add portals AND make them wide enough to keep the COG at the same point as stock. You wont have change the lateral Roll over angle in theroy, BUT... you would have change the axle Roll center heights and therefore how the vehicle handled on and off road. You would have also change the AS and AD because you have change the height of the links and the interaction of contact patch, links and COG has changed within each other...Axle roll axis would remain the same.Veichle roll axis would also remain the same angle....

You are much more familiar with scrub radius and I believe what you say. The only info I can add is the vehicle I know runs 16x6 milartary rims with 750-16s on it. It seems fine and handles well......

[uninformed]

A simple example:

to get an idea of what adding portals does to the front end with regards to any driving, whether it be on road of off.

take a long handle screwdriver: either flat or philips.....with the handle in your hand and the tip on the ground, push the tip along the ground over and cracks in the concrete....first try it at a very shallow angle, almost parrallel with the ground....now raise your hand to make this angle steeper, doing it again......imagine this screwdriver is the line drawn from contact patch of front wheel through the RA chassis end bush center.....

food for thought

[wagoo]

A simple example:

to get an idea of what adding portals does to the front end with regards to any driving, whether it be on road of off.

take a long handle screwdriver: either flat or philips.....with the handle in your hand and the tip on the ground, push the tip along the ground over and cracks in the concrete....first try it at a very shallow angle, almost parrallel with the ground....now raise your hand to make this angle steeper, doing it again......imagine this screwdriver is the line drawn from contact patch of front wheel through the RA chassis end bush center.....

food for thought

You are correct Serg I did mean Roll centre not roll axis as I was merely looking at a single axle and trying to describe how body roll is not affected by an increase in axle to ground height.I am not good at analogies but here goes.Jack the vehicle up and support on 4 adjustable jack stands under the axles.Now bodily rock the vehicle laterally on its suspension. Next screw the jackstands up 4 or 5 inches to simulate the fitting of portals and rock the vehicle again. The roll centre height measured from the ground is now 4 or 5 inches greater, but measured from the axle is the same as before so the effort required to rock the vehicle is no more nor less than before.
I like your screwdriver analogy above, and it does illustrate why my front suspension is much more resistant to compression, particularly when striking double wheel bumps or obstacles simultaneously.The projected line from the front tyres contact patch to the RA chassis pivots or in my case the instant centre of the 3 control arms is so steep that the forces to compress the suspension are almost equalled by the forces trying to extend it, so that the suspension is on the verge of locking.
A phenominen (Sp) I discovered related to both portal offset and antisquat geometry may be of interest to some.
I got bogged up to the axle housings in thick deep muck a couple of months ago. If you do that in a non portalled rig, usually the tyre centre is still above ground level and the winch will pull the vehicles wheel forward, up and out of the mud holes.
In my case, because of the portals the tyre centre height was around 5 inches below ground level, so the pull from the winch only served to make the wheels plow even deeper into the mire, assisted by the more severe antisquat geometries willingness to allow the suspension to extend to its limits just from the force of the winch pulling forward.
I won't go into the gory details of how I eventually recovered the vehicle, suffice to say that it wasn't easy or pretty:(
Wagoo.

[uninformed]

I think you are corect Bill, as the relationship between Roll center and axle and body has stayed the same, with ONLY portals fitted....but I just pictured in my head what you said.....

Now if you are to chnage the roll center height and not the axle or body it would change things.

regarding your getting stuck and the wheels plowing further in. In my mind this happens in any coils sprung rig in deep mud, even if the wheels arent coverd like yours...In my mind I see the winch being pulled at chassis, the chassis moving forward and the RA to contact patch line digging in untill something of greater resistance forces it up, like a rock and the chassis pulling up till the axle reaches full droop....now a 2m long RA would chnage this abit....kinda like how a dozer blade has nice long low arms that mount back at the rear drive on a track driver dozer?????

am I making nay sense....lol

[uninformed]

Bill, did you ever see the axle direct recovery system? where they fixed a wire rope bridle from RA axle bush bolt on both sides, with a loop at center for a shackle. The Idea was to run the cable from the winch out to a snatch block, and back to the wire rope bridle that attached to the axle....this would actually pull the axle up and recover more from the axle/wheels rather than the chassis dragging them through.

[wagoo]

Bill, did you ever see the axle direct recovery system? where they fixed a wire rope bridle from RA axle bush bolt on both sides, with a loop at center for a shackle. The Idea was to run the cable from the winch out to a snatch block, and back to the wire rope bridle that attached to the axle....this would actually pull the axle up and recover more from the axle/wheels rather than the chassis dragging them through.
I did rig up a crude example of what you described with a ratchet puller in order to retreive the rig. That was after I got a Visa and dug down to China to find the front axle assembly.:)
Wagoo.

[wagoo]

I think you are corect Bill, as the relationship between Roll center and axle and body has stayed the same, with ONLY portals fitted....but I just pictured in my head what you said.....

Now if you are to chnage the roll center height and not the axle or body it would change things.

regarding your getting stuck and the wheels plowing further in. In my mind this happens in any coils sprung rig in deep mud, even if the wheels arent coverd like yours...In my mind I see the winch being pulled at chassis, the chassis moving forward and the RA to contact patch line digging in untill something of greater resistance forces it up, like a rock and the chassis pulling up till the axle reaches full droop....now a 2m long RA would chnage this abit....kinda like how a dozer blade has nice long low arms that mount back at the rear drive on a track driver dozer?????

am I making nay sense....lol

Yes Serg, except when a non portalled rigs tyres have sunk down to the point where the axle tubes are sitting on the deck there is still a sort of mud 'ramp' roughly in the shape of slightly less than half the tyre radius and leading upwards so that a front or rear pull would tend to assist the wheel to roll up the ramp, wheras with portals allowing the tyre to sink below centre height, the 'ramp' is effectively turned upside down so that the wheel prefers to roll ever downwards .
Wagoo.

[LowRanger]

Hi Brendan I'm pretty sure I went past you on the highway between Beresfield and Hexam yesterday? I was in a white 110 and snuck a late wave in.

Sam

Sam
It possibly would have been Brendan,as I believe that he is on his way to The Cape.

Wayne

[Bush65]

...

John, I was unsure about the length of the RA and how it affects the bush loading. But I was sure that the portals and or increase in tyres would increase load on them.
...
The load in the bushes depends upon the horizontal force between the road surface and the tyre, and the height from the application of that force and the bushes at the chassis. The rotation due to the height is combined with the horizontal force and is resisted by the RA. A longer RA needs a lower force at the chassis bush and so the load is slightly reduced at some bushes at the axle.


...

Basicly, anti-squat, in the style designed into rear suspension to resist squating during acceleration, is a combination of: Wheelbase, Cog, and in the case of the rear of a coil rover (RR,Def, D1), the relation of the rear trailing arms and the Aframe. When viewd from the side of the vehicle, if you draw a line from the center of the ball joint through the chassis end bush. Draw another line from the center of the axle end bush of trailing arm, through the chassis end bush....where these to meet is the Convergence point. Now draw a line from rear tyre contact patch through this convergence point and extend it....where it passes over the center line of the front axle determins the amount of squat....if it was to pass through the COG exactly at the center line of front axle it would be 100% anti-squat...above it would be greater than 100%

Anit-dive is similar but a bit different. (John or Bill may well correct me here??) It is a combination of: Wheelbase, COG, front to rear brake bias and link geometry....looking side on again, you have wheelbase, and COG. drawing a line from contact patch through the chassis end bush of radius arm (RA from here on in). Divinding the wheelbase into brake bias percent, ie if the front braking was 60%, then you would have a vertical line drawn 60% of the wheelbase from the front axle center line. Where the contact patch - RA bush line interesects this brake bias line will determine anti-dive. If it were to intersect directly at this line and also through the COG line, it would be 100%

...
Not strictly correct. You have described a graphical method that resolves the forces and reactions acting on the suspension during acceleration.

As per my previous post, the anti forces depend on the force at the tyre contact and the geometry of the links.

Wheelbase and COG height affect the squat (or dive), but not the anti's. As such they will affect the % of anti related to the squat or dive.

What you have called convergence point is more correctly called instant centre (IC). IC is the point that a swing arm, equivalent to the link system would pivot about. This point is important for resolving the multiple link forces to an equivalent force that would produce the same effect.

With a 4wd anti squat can be produced at the front end, but because front suspension should be set-up for anti dive the anti squat is negative, but generally small enough to ignore. Similarly during braking, the rear brakes produce forces in the rear links (in the opposite direction to acceleration) and produce negative anti dive there.

It is normal to only determine anti squat for the rear suspension and anti dive for the front suspension.

...

Bill, when you say roll axis, I belive you mean roll center height. There are 2 types of Roll axis:

#1 Axle roll axis: this being front and rear. Usually expressed in understeer or oversteer...Front: in this case is determined by the angle of the RA....more specificly the axle center line, as the 2 RA bushes at axle end disect the axle centerline, and the center of chassis end bush....So if the axle center line and the chassis bush center are level, ie neither angling up or down from front to back, this would be 0° front axle roll axis.

Rear: In our case again, it is determined by the angle of rear trailing arm (because they are parrallel). That is to say, drawing a line through the axle end bush of TA through the chassis end bush center...Once again if it was level, no angle up or down from back to front, it would be 0° rear axle roll axis.

From what I have seen, most stock rovers are ABOUT 0°-2° front axle roll axis...as this is a positive 2° it is roll oversteer. In the rear on stock rovers it is somewhere about 4°-6° degrees rear axle roll axis, roll oversteer.

#2 Vehicle roll axis: this is determind by the front and rear Roll center heights: Front, is the mid point of the chassis (when viewed from the front) where it disects the panhard rod...so draw a vertical line through the mid point of chassis and where it intersects the panhard is your front Roll center height. Rear, as the convergence points for the upper links, that is the A frame or Y or wishbone, is the ball joint. So the center of the ball joint is the rear axle Roll center height. Draw a line through the front and rear Roll center heights(when viewd from the side) and that is the Vehicle Roll axis.... Generally speaking, a higher Roll center in the rear makes the rear let go first when traction is lost through a corner.

As John said regarding roll center heights: higher in 4wd's....but of coarse there is effects, that is a higher roll center makes a vehicle more stable say on side slopes but makes it harder for the suspension to work....look at desert racing trucks with floppy rolly bodies...they have a lower roll center but there suspension is very supple and keeps power to the ground...(this is a very basic idea of the concept I have given, just remember one small change can have alot of different effetcs)

things to consider...not only would portals OR larger tyres change dive and squat, but wheelbase alone also does, that is to say a defender 90,110 and 130 all have different AS/AD numbers even though they share the same suspension links, tyre size etc.

I hope I got all that right....my brains a bit fried now haha I will add more later...maybe if I havent got it all wrong hahahahah
Basically the suspension couples the sprung masses to the unsprung masses.

The front and rear suspensions each have a roll axis that passes through their roll centre.

The body rolls about another roll axis that passes through both the front and rear roll centres.

A flatter roll axis is preferred to reduce roll steer.

On a side slope, the body of a vehicle with low roll centres will flop over to the downhill side which shifts the COG further downhill increasing risk of rollover.

The disadvantage of high roll centres is the body shifts to the side when the axle articulates. At high speeds on uneven ground the inertia can give the effect of having stiffer suspension resisting articulation.

[uninformed]

Thanks John, id figured youd set me straight.

I had a feeling that I had Instant Center IC and Convergence Point mixed up....Is the CP the ball Joint on our rovers, or where the 2 angled links on a 4 link (when viewed from above) would meet?

So what does it all mean.....IMO you only need so much anti-squat and anti-dive to perform well on road....Take the amount on a stock RangeRover classic, on its stock 29 inch tyres...lets say the amount on this vehicle is fine as a base line for both on and offroad....well adding bigger tyres/spring lift/portals makes these values higher....to the point where it can be detremental offroad. In the USA when they are wheeling on high traction rock, they tend to like low AS type suspension so they can get smoother power delivery to the ground and less induced wheel hop...on the East coast they prefer alittle more in the looser dirt stuff as this helps load the front and provide a bit more traction up there. As I described before, the front end going over bumps etc just gets worse the higher the rig goes....front axle roll axis would be better on a stock spring height portal rig, than a 5 inch spring lift rig none portal rig. But both still not haddling corrigations etc as well as stock. Every person has different wants and needs, for me I like the stock RR as a base line and would love to build a portal axled rig with this as my guideline, using longer RA's and TA-Aframe to get that power to the wheels smoothly and also handle road safetly and comfortably. The rear end would be able to flex even better than stock with longer arms and a well sorted shock angle...the front would also flexmore than stock with a longer RA....for me balance between the 2 is important...to the point where id be happy with a full 12 unch travel shock be used front and rear....keep them the same so a spare is easy....I like the idea of a higher ball joint to help with the rotation of the rear axle. The front for ease sake would use stock bush location...running poly bushes and keeping a good eye on them....funny thing is that these days the polys are flexing as well if not better than rubber oem...


Probably all a pipe dream as QLD transport wont give us any guideline to do the above :mad:

[wagoo]

Serg, I haven't kept abreast of poly bush developments. I went off them about 8 years ago when fitting a set of ARB OME radius arm bushings to find they were sloppier than the worn out original equipment ones I was replacing. All of ARBs stock at the time were the same..The chassis end RA polys also permanently squashed flatter after only a couple of hundred kms service.
What brand of polys would you suggest is worth a try ?
Wagoo.

[uninformed]

Bill, Rick and some others including myself are having good success with Superpro, sold through Fulcrum. Im running these poly at: chassis end of RA, TA and Aframe, with rubber at axle end of RA and TA and a MR Automotive high ball,greasbale adjustable ball joint. My portal'd mate has poly at axle end of RA only... rubber every where else. I quiz him everytime I see him how the custom arms are holding up and how the bushes are fairing.....so far all good. His rig gets used almost daily on his property and runs into town (1hr one way) every week or 2.

[wagoo]

Thanks Serg. The way this thread has gone all technical like, I hope it's not in danger of Mods moving it to the 'Extreme ' forum:(. That would be a shame, as IMO that is where threads go to rest before dying:(
Wagoo.

[isuzurover]

...Superpro...


x2.

[uninformed]

100% anti dive/squat results when the anti dive/squat force is equal but opposite to the dive/squat forces. Note it can exceed (greater than 100%), but is better if somewhat less than 100%.

Even if the geometry of the suspension remains the same, increasing the COG by larger tyres or portals will increase the dive/squat forces. The anti forces can only increase (to restore previous anti %) by changing the suspension geometry.

John, I think Im just confused, but to me you are saying that putting portals on a stock rig and not changing anything else, will increase squat? and that the only way to address this is to change the link geometry to achieve a higher % anti????

Im pretty certain adding portals and nothing else puts the anti-squat as a % higher...from everything I have read on pirate by Sam and triaged etc...and playing with the 4 link calculator. Thats why tyres alone or even just a different wheelbase changes the % of antisquat

what am I missing or miss reading????

cheers,
Serg

[uninformed]

Scrub radius is still an aspect of fitting portals to standard axles that i'm not too happy about. Power steering and constant 4wd does tend to mask the bump steer effect of a large scrub radius. My own conversion on an old series 2a with manual steering and part time 4wd, although quite manageable if driven slowly over rough broken terrain, does give me a real indication of how potentially dangerous things could get with a sudden tyre failure on the road at speed. I've mentioned it before on an earlier post(#58) that i believe the track width increase should ideally occurr at the axle housing and the wheel rim back spacing increased to restore the relationship of the tyres contact patch and the point where the king pin axis meets the road.This modification, which I intend to do on my own vehicle before It resumes service as a daily driver, will require the larger internal diameter of a 16'' split rim which would have the appearance of the front wheels of a dual wheel truck. Not pretty but much safer IMO.

Wagoo.

Bill, Im totally with you on this one. I have long wanted to extend track width at the axle on a non portal'd rig and have a bigger backspace to get things back or better....not only scrub but wheel bearings etc cop it with larger offset wheels. For me though, If I was to run portals I would probably just use 16x6 milatary rims and a narrow tyre....has to be better than the wide tyre and large offset that some run on portals. The only draw back to your idea is the drive flange etc sticking out.

[Bush65]

John, I think Im just confused, but to me you are saying that putting portals on a stock rig and not changing anything else, will increase squat? and that the only way to address this is to change the link geometry to achieve a higher % anti????

Im pretty certain adding portals and nothing else puts the anti-squat as a % higher...from everything I have read on pirate by Sam and triaged etc...and playing with the 4 link calculator. Thats why tyres alone or even just a different wheelbase changes the % of antisquat

what am I missing or miss reading????

cheers,
Serg
I have not investigated it properly, but what I was meaning is that when the COG is raised by larger tyres or portals then the inertia during acceleration will increase the apparent weight transfer to the rear springs and increase the squat force. The part I don't have time to investigate is whether the anti squat change will increase or decreases the percentage.

BTW I should have pointed out in my earlier post that, when all said and done, it is the ratio of anti squat force / squat force x 100 to make it a percentage that is most useful. By doing this, both the mass and acceleration (and the units) are mathematically cancelled so making the xx% antisquat independent of mass and acceleration changes.

[uninformed]

Thanks John,

so if i have it right....rasie the COG (tyres/portals) with no link or spring change and the squat force (the amount the vehicle wants to squat down in the rear under acceleration) increases.....and Im 99% sure that rasing the COG will also cause the anti % to raise....I guess the question begs, is it a proportional change for both....ie will the rig feel and different by the seat of the pants when accelerating on level ground....

At the end of the day, anti-squat and anti-dive are only 2 things of more that make the whole....to me im guessing anti-dive be the more inportant safety wise. Performance wise, IMO you could get away with less anti-squat and anti-dive as long as the vehicle isnt pitching fore and aft under accelleration and braking....for me axle roll axis angle is important, as is the relaation between contact patch and chassis bush of RA and TA...but more importantly the RA in the front. I know there are other link set ups to go to like 1/3/4 etc...but for me RA presents a simple solution using some exsisting mounts and is easy to package on the outside of chassis rails....the rear A frame type link also lends it self to easy mods that can improve offroad and onroad perfromance when lifting COG, keeping onroad safety and handling.

cheers,
Serg

[Bush65]

Serg,
I tried a couple of hypothetical 4 link suspensions and then changed the height as would occur if adding larger tyres - suspension geometry unchanged except height above ground. The results were that the %antisquat increased as you stated.

The %antisquat is a ratio of antisquat/squat so the anti increased at a greater rate than the squat for both cases.

In neither case did the angle of the roll axis change. This result is as expected.

[borneo_boyz]

good work.. where can i get this conversion kid?

[chook73]

good work.. where can i get this conversion kid?

Portals? Call Daniel at Mulgo. I am having it done ATM and you can check progress in chooks defender thread in members rides.


Sent from my iPhone using Thumbs

[gaz]

Hi Chook, do you need an engineers report done for portals?

[dullbird]

yes you would need to

[chook73]

Hi Chook, do you need an engineers report done for portals?

Yes absolutely you do......

There are not a lot of engineers that will do them either

[gaz]

Yes absolutely you do......

There are not a lot of engineers that will do them either

Chook may i ask who you are using....thanks Gaz

[gaz]

yes you would need to

Thanks Dullbird....Gaz.

[chook73]

Chook may i ask who you are using....thanks Gaz

Hey Gaz,

When I first started looking at bringing these portals into the country I approached Daniel from Mulgo to see if he was interested in working with me to get them fitted and engineered which of course being the LR nut he is, he jumped at the opportunity.

Daniel has taken the opportunity to do so much legwork on this project on his own time in order to give himself a good knowledge of the product to further his business opportunities.

It would be unfair of me to post all of the small challenges that have come up and the solutions we have worked to get around them. As much as they are "bolt on portals" they have not been straight forward.

Daniel has also done a lot of the legwork on the engineering and has worked closely with the engineer to make sure that if we fitted these things we could get them registered.

As such out of appreciation for Daniels hard work and patience (hell he has put up with me for over 6 months on this and can still feign a smile on a daily basis) I would ask that you give him a call or drop him a PM regarding any specific questions.

Regards
Iain