Brand new Puma drifting to the left

[Naks]

Hi all

I only had the chance to drive the Puma properly last week and noticed that it was drifting to the left and also was swerving to the left under braking.

When I took it in to LR N1 City for the radio fitment, they did a wheel alignment and according to them it's sorted. However, for the braking issue they will require the car for at least a day to be able to diagnose and fix, so it has to go back in next week *sigh*

In the meantime, the wheel alignment has sort of worked: the Puma does not drift so much on a smooth road. But on a bumpy street, it will swerve as soon as one wheel hits a bump/speedbump/etc. Also, as soon as a gust of wind hits, it swerves to the left.

Anyone else experience this sort of thing in a new Puma? Also, take a look at the attached wheel alignment figures, do they seem right to you?

[MADDOG]

take it back to dealer and tell them to check bump steer, not sure how you do it on a defender but know how to do it on my race car:p

[Naks]

Jah, but what's really worrying me is the 4mm difference in the wheelbase measurements. :(

[ScottW]

I would have thought that bump steer would only be a problem on something with IFS, not something with a solid front diff as the steering geometry stays the same throughout articulation.

[jddisco200tdi]

Have you driven defenders before ? They will drift on high cambered roads.
The bump steer could be some of the suspension not tightened up properly or a faulty suspension bush.

Maybe a siezed brake caliper or oil on the disc is causing the swerving. The dealer should be able to easily diagnose this all of the above.

HTH

John D - Defender 110 2.4

[Chucaro]

Have you driven defenders before ? They will drift on high cambered roads.
The bump steer could be some of the suspension not tightened up properly or a faulty suspension bush.

Maybe a siezed brake caliper or oil on the disc is causing the swerving. The dealer should be able to easily diagnose this all of the above.

HTH

John D - Defender 110 2.4

I agree with you, it is a safety add on on the Defes so the driver do not fall sleep when driving :D
My 1994 is the same.

[Naks]

Have you driven defenders before ? They will drift on high cambered roads.

John, I used to have a 110 double-cab Td5, never ever drifted like this.

So far it could be either of these, which I am asking the stealer to check:

1. Check anti-sway bar is connected on the left hand side
2. Check ball joints and radius arm bushings
3. Excessive wheel bearing play, possibly caused by improper adjustment or poor bearing condition
4. Check camber and castor (if out something is bent and/or assembled incorrectly)
5. Rear wheels toe angles (0.9mm & -0.6mm) indicate both wheel are pointing off-centre in the same direction. Washers on the radius arms/chassis mounts?
6. Check bracket to which the left-front steering control rod is attached


But what is scaring me is the measurement from the wheel alignment that there is a 4mm difference in the wheelbase between left and right side!

Someone else in SA has found that a part of the left front suspension was welded 3mm+ incorrectly, and his Puma also drifts.

[Frenchie]

But what is scaring me is the measurement from the wheel alignment that there is a 4mm difference in the wheelbase between left and right side!


Loose radius arm to chassis bush bolt allowing the axle to move forward a bit?

[Gromit68]

It's not a Defender thing

My TD5 doesn't wander about and tracks straight under braking. My '68 2a doesn't even drift; but the steering can be a bit vague though!

[cripesamighty]

That doesn't seem right. Our '08 Puma is steady as a rock under brakes and doesn't wander at all. Something is definitely amiss with your new baby.....

[Naks]

Just got a call from LR N1 City, the braking issue had to do with grease on
the brakes due to over-filling at the factory.

But for the drifting issue, they have picked up an alignment problem between
the chassis and the suspension.

So now it's going to the panelbeaters for a more thorough diagnosis.


What are the options here? Get it fixed or ask for the vehicle to be
replaced - and will they agree?

[ADMIRAL]

I could not read your data very well, but it looks like the rear end is steering the front ( toe in on the lh rear ) , and the castor setting on the front lh side is lower than the right. Both are going to push the vehicle left, particularly on cambered roads. I guess if the brakes are contaminated, that would perhaps explain the pulling, but it really does sound like something is loose in the suspension to get it ducking & diving on undulations.

The drifting left should be able to be corrected. I would be more concerned about the moving around over bumps.

The 4mm wheelbase difference might sound a lot, but I can assure you there are a lot of new vehicles out there with greater variations.

Interested to hear what your dealer discovers.

[Naks]

Picked up the landy from the dealership yesterday evening.

What do you know, they claimed it's all fixed and it drives straight. They corrected the toe on the rear axle by adjusting the washers fitted to the left rear radius arm mounting to correct the thrust angle.

They did not send it to the panelbeaters, since they thought they were fixing it in-house.

Sounds all good & well, but as soon as I drove one block, the landy showed
the same behaviour as before.

*sigh*

So I went back, but by that time everyone had left, except for the salesperson and I informed her of the situation and will hear from her tomorrow.

Our next step is to take it back and tell them to give us another one since:

1. they have sold us a defective vehicle; and
2. they are clearly unable to fix it

Ah, the joys of owning a land rover https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/03/980.jpg

[Psimpson7]

Not sure what the rules are over there, but can you notify them you want to reject it?

[Naks]

Hi all,

After my chat with the DP on Friday, he asked me to come in today and he would be in the car when I drove it to see what the issue is.

I get there at 0800, no sign of the DP, I get saddled with Gustav, who acts as if he's doing me a favour to even see me. He drives the car, agrees that it's pulling to the left but claims it's a wheel alignment problem. So off we go to ****, and I stand there while they swap the front tyres around. I drive it around the block, still no change.

They hook it on the wheel alignment machine, and while the tech is fiddling, I ask him some questions about the figures. He points out to me that there is a 0.24deg difference between the right & left caster angles, which effectively means that the front right wheel is always ahead of the left! Since you can only adjust the toe on Defenders, this means that it will always pull left, and that possibly this may be resolved by spacers - not something I want to contemplate.

FYI, the 3rd wheel alignment print out is here: Google Docs (http://tinyurl.com/yc2y45q)

I go back to N1 City and inform Gustav of this, and his whole attitude is 'they all do this on SA's cambered roads, get used to it'.

I have just filed a complaint with LRSA, and will now see how that plays out.

[Bush65]

Sounds like you are getting a run around.

Did the 2nd wheel alignment place check the rear wheel alignment, or only front.

Good luck!

[Naks]

Guys,

Some of you may recall that when I bought my Puma, it was drifting to the left. Many attempts at getting this sorted out by the dealership (N1 City) where I bought the vehicle ended up in nothing but frustration and many wasted hours. The attitude of the service manager there is to be as rude and unfriendly and unhelpful as possible in an attempt to make the customer go away - which I admit, works. So in the end we lived with the issue, which was cured to a large extent by Hillstar Panelbeaters & Expedition Gear who removed all the misplaced shims that N1 City put on the back axle.

Anyway, driving past LR Stellenbosch the other day, I saw that they were Dealer Of The Year in 2009, so I popped in to see who was in charge. The workshop manager with whom I dealt previously and who stuffed up my DC is no longer there, and the new one is Owen - a friendly and helpful man. He took time out of his lunch break to take a drive and commented that he thought the gearbox was also sounding a bit sick on top of the drift.

I booked in the landy for its first service a couple of weeks ago, and they kept it for 2 days to attend to all my queries. However, the drift still persisted, so I went back for a chat with Owen. At this point I queried whether it was not the power steering box, and his response was 'in Defenders we've only had to replace a few of these once every 5-6 years, so most unlikely'. A quick trip to Supaquick to double-check the wheel alignment and he then decided that a shim was needed to resolve a 0.40deg difference in the caster angle, which I also thought would cure the problem.

Landy was booked in for last Thursday, and I was expecting them to put the shim in and that would be that. They sent the landy to an suspension specialist for a more thorough check, and today I get call that they have found that the power steering box was too tightly adjusted at the factory, and thus would not return to centre to the one side. Having spent a day at Schalk Burger's workshop, I have seen how even a slight misadjustment in the steering box will cause problems. The part has been ordered and should have it back on Thursday and I will resist the urge for an 'I told you so' when I go pick up the landy!

It just goes to show that when you have a dealership with people willing to help and test & try things, most problems can be resolved. Holding thumbs that they fit the part without breaking anything else.

[Naks]

Good news - the steering is much sharper now with the new steering box.

Bad news - it pulls to the left even more.

Am going to have the wheel alignment done this morning, maybe have my indie mechanic re-centre the steering box during the week.

If that does not help, will have a shim done on the left front radius arm to correct the 0.4 deg difference in caster angle.

After that I dunno :(

[BigJon]

Where will you put a shim in to change the caster?

[Mudnut]

Might be a bit basic, but what are the tyre pressures? I had this issue when one of my tyres was low, but not enough to see any difference when viewed by walking around.
Good luck in finding the problem.

Ken

[danske]

I have not read all 18 responses , so apologies if i am repeating. I did have this experience of drifting. My tyrepower person said the defenders in particular are camber sensitve to the road camber. he adjusted the front end to address this ( sorry dont know the tech terms ) and it has been fixed. basically he desensitised the camber adjustment and it has worked.

[Naks]

Where will you put a shim in to change the caster?

Ok, just been to the wheel alignment shop - alignment is perfect. The tyres are 2.3 all round, but tyre pressure does not affect the drift.

The shim will have to go on the front left radius arm, since the left wheelbase is approx 4mm shorter than the right one.

[justinc]

Err, shimming the radius arm fowrd one side will not change caster on an individual swivel housing as the axle housing is a rigid 'beam', this is achieved by slotting the actual swivel housing to axle housing holes, and rotating the housing slightly. If you needed an overall caster adjustment, then only offset bushes will help. Shims at the end of the radius rods will only effect the wheelbase each side.

JC

[Naks]

Err, shimming the radius arm fowrd one side will not change caster on an individual swivel housing as the axle housing is a rigid 'beam', this is achieved by slotting the actual swivel housing to axle housing holes, and rotating the housing slightly. If you needed an overall caster adjustment, then only offset bushes will help. Shims at the end of the radius rods will only effect the wheelbase each side.

JC

JC, thanks for the info. not sure I understand all of it, but will check with my indie mechanic.

There is a caster difference of 0.4 degrees - does this correlate to the 4mm wheelbase difference or is the latter something different?

[justinc]

JC, thanks for the info. not sure I understand all of it, but will check with my indie mechanic.

There is a caster difference of 0.4 degrees - does this correlate to the 4mm wheelbase difference or is the latter something different?

POSSIBLY, but a 4mm variation is pretty normal in Defenders, I have seen a D1 with 11mm difference:o. But don't worry - After the caster change via the method listed below, it may improve or get worse depending on which way it has to be rotated:D

Have a look at the way the swivel housing is bolted to the end of the axle housing. Now picture rotating the swivel housing around to get the caster right, maybe only a half bolt hole will be required, not certain. .4degrees is about equivalent of a 25mm suspension lift IIRC.

Anyway, this may be the only way to cure the unequal caster, so more measurements RE the positioning of the axle flange onto the end of the axle tube needs to be investigated. May have been welded on rotated slightly:(


JC

[BigJon]

Err, shimming the radius arm fowrd one side will not change caster on an individual swivel housing as the axle housing is a rigid 'beam', this is achieved by slotting the actual swivel housing to axle housing holes, and rotating the housing slightly. If you needed an overall caster adjustment, then only offset bushes will help. Shims at the end of the radius rods will only effect the wheelbase each side.

JC

Agree 100% with this, hence my earlier question!

[Naks]

he adjusted the front end to address this ( sorry dont know the tech terms ) and it has been fixed. basically he desensitised the camber adjustment and it has worked.


How did he do this, since one cannot adjust the camber on a Defender, only the toe?

[Naks]

Ok, I spoke to the guys at 5th Avenue Motors who do the suspension work for LR Stellenbosch. They found a 20mm difference between the left and right wheelbase :shock:

The caster difference is only 1 degree

Landy will be going back to them to see if they can sort this out...

[marko66]

Hi All

If the left wheel has one degree less castor than the right and you drive on the left side of the road then assuming that your roads have some camber the car would pull to the left quite strongly.

I used to try and set up vehicles with about 15minutes more castor on the left with our fairly low camber roads here in the Territory. Hope this helps

Regards Mark

[Naks]

Chaps,

Landy went back to LR CL yesterday who sent it to 5th Avenue Motors again. I just spoke to the technician who is working on my landy and this is what he said:

- Wheelbase difference of 10-15mm on the left compared to the right. They do not see many of these n Defenders but manage to fix 90% of them with a slight residual 'normal' pull due to road camber.
- They can fix it by re-positioning the wheel, but it will look 'out of position' when compared to the right. However according to him this will not affect wheel travel and is only cosmetic.

They are waiting for feedback from LRCL & LRSA before any repairs are done.

Hopefully this time it will be fixed.

[Naks]

Further measurements by the specialist revealed that the rear axle was at fault, with a 0.3deg thrust angle. Basically the rear axle was pointing right, thus making the front pivot to the left. This was fixed by repositioning the rear axle to make it parallel to the front axle.

Got the landy back this afternoon. On the drive back home I noticed the following: on a good flat road the landy goes straight, but as soon as the road is slightly cambered or uneven, it swings to the left quite badly.

I'm at my wits end here, not sure what the next step is... any advice?

[Gav110]

Mine pulled left from factory too. Had a front wheel alignment done while up in Gloucester - they said it was out by 9.5mm - which apparently is a lot ! As you report, it now pulls straight on a level road, but they warned me that any road camber will make it pull (left or right - and I have seen it go right too).

In my case it's made worse by 285/75 tyres with MT patterns, which they said would exacerbate the issue. Being a twin solid axle vehicle, I would have thought that this just goes with the territory - and conversely when offroad, we enjoy those benefits.

I am actually very happy with the result on mine - should help reduce tyre wear.

[PAT303]

Further measurements by the specialist revealed that the rear axle was at fault, with a 0.3deg thrust angle. Basically the rear axle was pointing right, thus making the front pivot to the left. This was fixed by repositioning the rear axle to make it parallel to the front axle.

Got the landy back this afternoon. On the drive back home I noticed the following: on a good flat road the landy goes straight, but as soon as the road is slightly cambered or uneven, it swings to the left quite badly.

I'm at my wits end here, not sure what the next step is... any advice?

Thats what its supposed to do.If everything is right on a normal flat straight road it should drive straight,but on cambered roads it should pull left as the road is made that way to clear water.Not all roads are made the same and I drive an both tar and dirt roads and some make both my vehicles pull left and some don't.If I'm on a heavily cambered road I drive on the crown as much as possible or put up with it. Pat

[wrinklearthur]

Hi All

Without confusing eveyone with figures, the pulling left or right can be explained this way.
Look at the steering of a log skider, they have two solid beam axles without any swivel pin housings in either of them.
These machines are designed to bend in the middle, they have what is called, articulated steering.
When turning to the right, on the outside of the turning circle, the left hand wheels must move further apart. and the inside of the turning circle the right hand wheels move closer together.

So to make a Coil sprung Land Rover track more to the right the axles could be set so they also are further apart on the left hand side, by using spacer washers between the front of the front chassis mount and the radius arm, or the back of the rear chassis mount and the rear bottom link assembly or do both arms and their respective chassis mounts.

Are you with me so far ? :rolleyes:

Because there is a lot more to this and it involves, looking at the angle of the radius arms and measuring the loaded spring heights.

As JC has said, to alter the caster on one side only, that requires slotting the bolt holes on the flange where the swivel pin housing meets the axle tube, if those flanges were welded in the first place by the factory, with the bolt holes in their correct postions, I would not touch them at this stage. The Warranty Police would be in their glee. :(

Cheers Arthur

[Naks]

So to make a Coil sprung Land Rover track more to the right the axles could be set so they also are further apart on the left hand side, by using spacer washers between the front of the front chassis mount and the radius arm, or the back of the rear chassis mount and the rear bottom link assembly or do both arms and their respective chassis mounts.

So ur saying if I want to cure this residual drag, I can simply put a spacer washer on the front left radius arm to push the front left wheel out a bit? :angel:

[Naks]

5mm spacer went onto the front left radius arm this morning. Very slight improvement. Suspension technician reckons that's as good as it's going to
get without re-positioning the swivel.

Probably not worth it to correct 34' of caster difference, and also will void warranty.

[Naks]

To update you guys:

I noticed the other day that I can turn the steering wheel to the left 1+3/4 turns, but only 1+1/2 turns to the right. So I think the vehicle's steering is not centred but always turning left slightly.

My indie mech says this is caused by the steering rod being too long, and removing about 5mm on each side should do the trick. Will ask LR to check when I take it in tomorrow.

But at the moment the slow coolant leak is more troubling since I have a 5000km trip to Namibia coming up in 2 weeks' time!

[JDNSW]

To update you guys:

I noticed the other day that I can turn the steering wheel to the left 1+3/4 turns, but only 1+1/2 turns to the right. So I think the vehicle's steering is not centred but always turning left slightly.

My indie mech says this is caused by the steering rod being too long, and removing about 5mm on each side should do the trick. Will ask LR to check when I take it in tomorrow.

But at the moment the slow coolant leak is more troubling since I have a 5000km trip to Namibia coming up in 2 weeks' time!


Thinking about the steering geometry, the key to centring the steering (equal turns left/right) is twofold.

One is that the length of the drag link (pitman arm on steering box to LH steering arm) needs to be the same as the distance between the plane of the pitman shaft and the steering arm - this is affected by the length of the panhard rod, and its anchorages. My experience with worn panhard rod bushes shows that it needs very little change in this length for it to show up as a marked angle at the steering wheel.

But you cannot just assume that unequal L/R turns means the drag link length is wrong, because the second factor is how far the wheel has turned. This is limited by the steering stop on the opposite side to the direction the wheels are turned. These are adjustable, and the amount of turn, because the control is on the opposite side, is also affected by the length of the track rod, in other words, the toe in/out. Which is also adjustable. There is no guarantee that these adjustments are correct, and the same in both directions, so the number of turns each way is not a good measure of steering centring. In practice, it is likely that the length of the drag link has been adjusted to get the fine adjustment (less than one tooth on the steering wheel spline) to centre the steering wheel.

Hope this makes sense.

John

[Naks]

Vehicle has been in the shop for 4 weeks now. Sent to 2 different panelbeaters for measurements - no issues with the chassis.

So far wheels have been swopped, tyres have been swopped. Swivel preload has been checked. They also replaced the front axle with one from a brand new Puma, still same behaviour. They are now going to swop the steering box.

At this rate I will have a brand new vehicle bit by bit...

[Naks]

Gents,

Yesterday I went to meet the Regional Technical Manager at the dealership for a test drive after they replaced the front axle & steering box. I cannot believe it, but I think this is it! Orxy now drives in a straight line and one can actually take one's hands off the steering wheel without ending up in the scenery. There is the slightest residual drift, probably due to the tyres wearing unevenly for 20Kkm, but at least it doesn't feel like a fairy is tugging at the steering wheel any more.

I must say, the RTM is a very thorough chap, he even noticed some brake fade and told the workshop to fix that and to also replace the EGR and look into the excessive backlash. We should be getting it back next week, I can't wait to get rid of that POS FL2 and get back into a real landy :)

On a side-note, he mentioned that LRSA is trying to get LRUK to drop the DPF from the MY12 Defenders coming to SA.

[wrinklearthur]

Hi Naks

A process of elimination, has found your problem.
I wonder what it is ,with that steering box that was the cause of that problem of pulling to one side ?

(quote; On a side-note, he mentioned that LRSA is trying to get LRUK to drop the DPF from the MY12 Defenders coming to SA.)

Sorry what did you mean by 'DPF' ?

Cheers Arthur

[PAT303]

Diesel particulate filter,a dumbarse idea designed to keep the tree huggers happy,like the EGR it works in theory but in practise it causes the engine to run rough and use more fuel causing more polution. Pat

[Naks]

A process of elimination, has found your problem. I wonder what it is ,with that steering box that was the cause of that problem of pulling to one side ?

I think it was more the replacement of the axle - the steering box was replaced a few months ago and the RTM mentioned that the original axle was probably assembled incorrectly on the chassis.