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Thread: Hydrogen (browns gas) by electrolysis

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel0407 View Post
    Wow. I haven't researched it at all but I would have thought this would have been far more effiecnt than that. I actually expected it to be 100% efficent. As far as I understand it electrons jump on and off the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. So right at the crux of the reaction, excluding all the heat losses or whatever to get the electricity there, for every electron coming or going they need an oxygen or a hydrogen to connect with. So far as efficency for every electron there should equal gas out. I mean if you loose an electron then you have to do something with the oxygen or hydrogen.
    That is one way of looking at it - but the problem with looking at it that way is that an electron is not equivalent to energy. The available energy is from moving an electron to and from different energy levels - energy is measured in electron-volts not electrons. The same way that available hydroelectric energy is a function of both the quantity and head of the water.

    What this means in the case of Brown's gas is that the voltage needed to disassociate the water multiplied by the number of electrons moved from one energy level to another is considerably more than the energy content of the gas produced and able to be converted to heat by burning. What happened to the 'missing' energy? It is converted to heat in the electrolysis cell. And this analysis ignores losses from flow of the gas, pumping water etc, which are probably small in comparison.

    A similar energy loss is involved in the charge/discharge of, for example, a lead acid battery (similar results apply to any battery, but most of us are more familiar with lead acid). Again, number of electrons in is equal to the number of electrons out - but consider: we charge at, for example, 13.8V, and discharge at, for example, 12.5V, automatically meaning that the energy efficiency of the system is only 90%, without even looking at anything else.

    John
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  2. #32
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    Thanks JD.



    So where is Bob and his Hindenburg?

    From a very little reading I've done, even those that claim browns gas does work, all that I have read claim other mods are necesary such as advancing timing and increased compression.

  3. #33
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    It is good to see some rational debate regarding the matter of browns gas....this is what a forum is about, not a place to sling off at others for their efforts or experiences.
    Wrt my posting of consumption figures, I am well aware of the figures published by various sites and indeed the manufacturers themselves. While these give a guide to what may be expected, those with experience will agree that they are nothing more than a guide.
    While this is purely my experience....let me say this. Regardless of the conditions, over 100,000kms of travel pre HHO cell, my averages were in the order of:
    City cycle 18/19L per 100km
    Highway cycle 14/15L per 100km.
    Over the last 100,000kms and Post cell:
    City cycle 14/15L 100km
    Highway 12/14L 100km. (best ever was 11.9 on a trip to Melbourne).

    Let me be quite clear....I am not about to embark on a 'scientific/engineering' hunt for the reasons, I have neither the inclination or the finances to do all of the documented and supervised tests that would be required.
    THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE, NOTHING MORE.
    And by the way, the figures above can easily be replicated by turning the cell off. In fact when the cell is turned off to on, an audible change can be detected and the engine actually goes quieter and slows down somewhat ergo...something is happening.

    I do understand the variables in operating any kind of ICE. Atmospherics, altitude, air density, temperature etc and I have read many of the scientific papers that say extraction of HHO by electrolysis can or can't be done efficiently....essentially that you can't get out more energy than you put in.
    Likewise I understand 'mechanical' losses, heat, friction, hysteresis etc (all which pretty much come down to heat losses anyway. Heat efficiency I believe it is called) and mechanical losses...reciprocating to rotary motion etc
    I don't even want to mention the weight of the foot of the driver.

    Conservation of energy....it can neither be created or destroyed it simply changes form. OK I get that. But what about the 'unseen' energy. That which binds molecules and atoms...(we know that exists otherwise we wouldn't have atomic energy).
    Could something like this be happening here...is it possible that the volume of a split molecule of water becomes greater during the process of electrolysis...is it possible that the volume of the gas produced (pressure - Boyle's laws) increases when the hydrogen is burned, is it possible that the extra fuel (hydrogen) because it burns so quickly and hotly, improves the burn efficiency of the petrol (not to mention the extra oxygen), IS ANYTHING POSSIBLE......
    I don't know the answers to these questions....all I know is that something happens when the cell is working

    For those who have responded in a positive way (and there has been quite a number of you), I am happy to share my experience and knowledge away from the forum if you are sick of the knockers.
    For those who have something constructive to say whether it be for or against, I say lets hear from you.
    For those who have some scientific input, I say bring it on.

    At the end of the day, robust debate and constructive input is good for everyone, we all learn from it.

    So I say....keep this going and may the force (HHO of course) be with you.
    Cheers Bob

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boblofty View Post
    And by the way, the figures above can easily be replicated by turning the cell off. In fact when the cell is turned off to on, an audible change can be detected and the engine actually goes quieter and slows down somewhat ergo...something is happening.
    theres your answer...

    the engine slows down. therefore (and in laymans terms) as speed increases drag squares by slowing down you're cutting your consumption just in areodynamic drag reduction alone.


    then you can add in all the other minor pickups you get that makes just slowing down more effecient. in terms of engine heat, internal friction, the reduction in all the drag on the parasitic loads on the engine.

    best guess
    given that your HHO is into your airbox the enriched mix is allowing the AFM to run a little hotter which means it thinks its drawing less air than it really is so the ECU has changed your injector timing and duration as well as the advance.

    In old school speak all you've effectively done is leaned out the fuel mix and are firing it earlier.

    I bet your plugs come out nice and clean, your piston tops are the same and if you run the HHO immediately after startup while the engine is really cold you're engines response is a little hesitant.
    Dave

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boblofty View Post
    But what about the 'unseen' energy. That which binds molecules and atoms...(we know that exists otherwise we wouldn't have atomic energy).
    Chemistry basically concerns itself with the rearrangement of the electron bonds used to bind atoms together within individual molecules. Rearrangement of these bonds consumes and releases chemical energy.

    Nuclear processes basically concern themselves with the rearrangement of the bonds between protons and neutrons used to bind the nucleus together within individual atoms. Rearrangement of these bonds consumes and releases nuclear energy.

    There is no nuclear energy involved in electrolysis or combustion since the nucleus of the atoms are not rearranged. Sorry, there is just plain, unexciting chemical energy involved.
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  6. #36
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    Home made sounds cool or brought from Shell works for sure. I was going to add this to a general chat thread but it went up in smoke or to be truthfull with out a single puff of smoke


    Shell opened the country's first publicly accessible hydrogen fuelling station in Vancouver. "Honda, Hyundai, and Toyota had vehicles on hand for test drives."
    Canada'''s first retail hydrogen fuelling station opens in Vancouver | CBC News

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyDiver View Post
    Home made sounds cool or brought from Shell works for sure. I was going to add this to a general chat thread but it went up in smoke or to be truthfull with out a single puff of smoke
    Yes, hydrogen burns without smoke - it's also colourless when burning.
    Ron B.
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