The now not so good coil conversion

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not sure about your spring rate suggestions, how do you know what he has on the vehicle?
i run 220pd front (purple), and 270pd rear (green/white), works great, pretty sure JC runs the same

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Depends what you like I guess.

But Land Rover Heavy Duty spec for a Range Rover is 160 front and 180 rear with Hydromat. AFAIK discovery front is ditto, with of course heavier rear.

220 and 270 are AFAIK like Jeep rates. If you want it to ride like a Jeep , then that is your choice.

It doesn't suggest anything that TMA has a problem?

The reason RRCs have low rate springs and Hydromat is that the speed of body movement is what determines ride. The lower the spring rate the slower the change of position of the body,simplistically speaking. This combined with shocks with light jounce damping is what gives a RRC a smooth ride. Change either one and you increase the speed of body movement greatly.

Another consideration is "Head Toss" where the body moves side to side as a result of a rise or fall of one side only. By definition , this is increased greatly by fitting anti roll bars and/or stiffer springs, and why LR resisted fitting anti roll bars for so long.( and why D2 has ACE,as such stiff anti roll bars would be intolerable all the time)

So if you have 65% stiffer springs AND anti roll bars , I wonder how stiff you neck gets after a drive on a typical country road. I know I once rode as passenger in a Pajero on a rough road and banged my head on the B pillar until I learned to lean inwards.

Unfortunately LR were forced by fashion/the market to fit anti roll bars as AFAIK, the Yanks objected to the body roll when they hooked onto freeway on ramps.
Its a bit hard to argue that LR engineers didn't know what they were doing with spring rates as the RRC became a legend for ride, if not flat handling as the modern drivers seem to demand.
Regards Philip A

PhilipA,
So would I get a more 'Traditional' RR ride if I took off the sway bars on my EAS '95 Classic ?

- Or is the Air suspension too far removed from the Original Design ?

From memory, the coil-spring shocks are softer on compression than on expansion, whereas the Air-suspension tends to more equal rates. The idea was to let the spring absorb the energy as it's squashed up, giving as you say, a slower-rate pitching or 'roll' .


Agree, my '89 / Gen I Pajero is *NOT* comfortable on anything other than normal sealed roads, and there simply is'nt enough travel - especially on the Torsion Bar front suspension - to fiddle it softer... Leafs on the back.

- Why do you think I bought a Classic ??? :D

James in Gosnells

'95 Classic with *working* EAS... and two wheel drive.

James, I really do not know how a air spring RRC would be without sway bars.
IMHO you could give it a try,as sway bars generally are a Handling aid rather than a roadholding aid ie they give the impression of flatter cornering but really the grip is much the same, in fact may be worse.

I think that it will reduce head toss ,as in my coil car the effect is marked, but of course you will then list like an ocean liner around roundabouts.

It was probably the invention of roundabouts and freeway on ramps that required car makers to increase roll stiffness so much. Drivers can only stand so much screaming from passengers.LOL

My only experience of driving a 38A made me think that air suspension SURPRISINGLY allows more sharp bump harshness through to the cabin , although this could have been the lower profile tyres. So it may not reduce the harshness and the shocks' valving may still mean it is a bit rougher off road, however the articulation will be much better and the spring rate softer on large one side bumps. The other advantage of air is that it is progressive, ie gets stiffer the more it compresses.

Just be careful that your air bags are in very good nick as a 38A member of our club, was prying airbags back on all the way over the Simpson and no roll bars would mean they probably will be extended more often than otherwise

I am removing my front anti roll bar for my Cape York trip,as I know from actually looking at anti-roll bar equipped vs no anti-roll bar cars going through training track Wombat Holes that you gain up to 40MM extra articulation on the front, and this will help my Quaife on the creek exits. Although there are a lot of roundabouts around Cairns.LOL
Regards Philip A

Andrew Richmond must have advised me on the wrong spring rates then:(.
According to him, for me to get a 2" spring lift with front and rear bars, winch, 4bd1, draws, duel batt, etc...this was his spring of choice.
He must have given Justin Cooper the wrong advice aswell.
either that or we're really closet jeep fans:o

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Andrew Richmond must have advised me on the wrong spring rates then:(.

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Well if you hang 90Kg+ off the front bumper and 40 or 50 off the rear you don't have much choice but to go a bit heavier .

Richmond obviously knows his stuff although I had a big argument with them a few years ago ,in which I was correct
I don't doubt he also asked you how you drove and what you wanted to do with the car., eg Is it always loaded? etc etc

I had an ARB bullbar which weighed 45KG on mine and a ARB rear bar with spare carrier at one time with 160lb springs F and 180 rear and it was fine by me as even 150KG is not a very big percentage increase over 2000Kg car weight,or even the 8-900 on the front. Just makes em like a dumbbell which caused me to to remove it all..

So lets say you increased the spring rate by 65% to take account of a max increase in weight of say 16% . 180lb is 25% more than the 133lb standard, which is IMHO too light for OZ.

IMHO, I would still not choose what you have and I would never advise someone who wants to use a car for touring to fit those springs. I would still go 180-maybe 200 front and depending whether you always have weight in back maybe up to your 270 but more probably 220-240 with airbags, if you ever drive around empty.

You are correct in that I do not know exactly what he has on the car , though TMA did provide a list of several things that did not include a bullbar, winch, rear step bar etc.

You also should remember that TMA has a problem that we are trying to address. How is your car on corrugations? Completely stable or does it jump around a bit at the rear. Maybe I should then ask whether you have dual shocks etc to reduce any problems with the weight.

All I know is that for a RRC without winch and bullbar or rear step , IMHO my setup is ideal, but he would have to go heavier in the back and lose some ride quality, although most ride quality is determined from the front.

Regards Philip A

BTW , I just had a look at the site which lists nearly all available springs .

I assume your fronts are Purple /yellowat 15.5 inch free length and 220 lb per inch. These are described by LRA as XXX heavy and the heaviest front spring they make. In my experience in mountain terrain springs like this will pop out of their lower seat on max extension and reseat with a loud bang as they are too stiff to bend with the axle.

I assume your rears are white /green 17.8 inches long and 270lb. These are also described as XXXheavy and the heaviest rear spring they make.

They make 5 front springs that are lighter and 6 rear springs , 5 of which have a lighter rate.
I just reread your post and saw 4BD1 which adds another 150-200Kg to the front. It is a pretty long stretch to compare your car to a Range Rover with light V8.

What did you tell Richmond about the load and speed you were going to do for him to recommend the heaviest springs they make??? They are pretty extreme and IMHO not everyones cup of tea, but maybe needed with the weight you are carrying on the front especially. How is the axle load?

Regards Philip A

I would just like to chime in here, and ask a question, which relates to all the talk on spring rate. My 86 RRC was bog stock standard when I got it, but now has front ARB bar, soon to have a winch installed, and ARB rear step bar, and spare wheel/high lift jack carrier hanging off that. As you can imagine, it now not only sits lower than it used to, but its ride has been compromised some what. I am looking at fitting new springs, but I'm not sure what sort of spring rate to go for. I want to lift it up a bit - probably 1.5 to 2" all up, but I would like to keep the ride as 'Range Rover' as possible. Any suggestions on what spring rates I should be looking at to accomplish this? I don't offen carry too much weight in the back, just a tool box and a few bits and bobs mostly.

Cheers - Gav

Just to add a bit of detail, I just went and had a look at the springs currently in it. I'm not sure what all the colours mean - does anyone have a list, or a link to this?

Anyway, looks like it has purple on the back, and blue up the front. Does this sound right, and what does this mean?

Cheers - Gav.

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I would just like to chime in here, and ask a question, which relates to all the talk on spring rate. My 86 RRC was bog stock standard when I got it, but now has front ARB bar, soon to have a winch installed, and ARB rear step bar, and spare wheel/high lift jack carrier hanging off that

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Well , look at my earlier posts,as I recommend the same for you.

If you have Green stripe springs in the back they are 160LB, and can be put in the front and should give about 40-50MM lift. ( if they are original free length ie not sagged). i suspect that the 86 does not have greens as these were on 91-92. LRA make one similar but they are 10MM shorter. I have these as I was unhappy with zero caster and the LRA green gives me a little.

My rear springs are LRA Orange which are 17.2 inches long and 180Lbs. I have an LRA 140 litre tank ( extra 20+50 Kg?) but now no rear step or spare tyre. The rear step and tyre weigh 45+30 and the jack another 10? so you will be hanging 85Kg or so off the back . This will also lift the front a bit.
I also have air bags as I tow a camper trailer with a ball weight of 60Kg.
You may want to go to the next spring up which is purple at 220 lbs and 17 inches. This will give you probably a bit over 50MM lift. This assumes that your hydromat is OK. just be aware that 220 lb springs will make the rear quite a bit harsher when the car is driven unloaded.

The above is a guide from my experience only. I suggest you go to a specialist such as Graeme Cooper or to Les Richmond Automotive and discuss your particular requirements. I would stay away from "kits" or names that start with Old, or Wild , or Rancho, or Pedders or the many other people selling Kits.

"....It was probably the invention of roundabouts and freeway on ramps that required car makers to increase roll stiffness so much. Drivers can only stand so much screaming from passengers.LOL....

Yes, that explains the demise of the Renault 16 in Australia long before the French let them go...(remember them ?- 1.6 litre loungechairs)

- 'MERDE`!!!' screamed by the femme passengers is a lot easier on the male ears than the English equivalent !

TMA, what is the beast like on corrugations ? - Did it dance sideways and all over the place ? Or just vibrate but stay on track....

James in Gosnells