Thread: Here we go again 86 RRC

Nice to know!

I usually run BP or Shell 98 anyway as it keeps things a bit cleaner and the old girl has BP 98 at the moment with a note on the sunvisor as to when the 20 lt was added as it has a shortish self life.

Plus I found years ago when Pulp first hit the shelves that I got better economy (Bang for buck) with the stuff.

I know the 3.5's are a bit wheezy but the ZF 4 speed seems well matched and I can always play with torque converters should the need arise.

Ta for the heads up!

Back on the road to rego and I spent half a day yesterday cleaning the thing and making sure any moss was dispatched and the bailey channels are squeaky clean.

The bad paint job seems to be blowing off with the Gerni and the RR words front and rear went poof.

I washed the Rangie on clean sand which is now not so clean and although I normally dont go berserk with high pressure water on old cars this ones been sitting for a while.

Anyway as paint isnt really a RWC item I started on the windows with my 40 amp test leads adding a clean earth path from the freshly charged battery to the door frame and got a really quick slightly sticky drivers door, left front and rear intermittently work now and the right rear wont budge so New switches for every one! (Although im now 2 short as I only ordered 4 not thinking about the rear door switches).

So new switches, Alternate earth straps to doors and finger crossed is a good start.

Mechanically she is due for oil, Ign, Filters and runs nicely on both LPG and fuel :-)

Piccies, just a few rushed half dark shots.

Originally Posted by tony66_au

Nice to know!

I usually run BP or Shell 98 anyway as it keeps things a bit cleaner and the old girl has BP 98 at the moment with a note on the sunvisor as to when the 20 lt was added as it has a shortish self life.

Plus I found years ago when Pulp first hit the shelves that I got better economy (Bang for buck) with the stuff.

I know the 3.5's are a bit wheezy but the ZF 4 speed seems well matched and I can always play with torque converters should the need arise.

Ta for the heads up!

Yeah, as Bee Utey said, wind in a heap of advance if your happy running premium. The 3.5 in my 101 had so much advance wound into it, that even on 98 on a hot day under power it would suffer pre ignition. I've backed it off a bit from there but I think it is still at 13 or 14 degrees.

Will do, im not so sure that the ign timing is advancing properly anyway and my rule of thumb was usually wind in advance until she pops on trailing throttle and then wind it back a degree or 2.

Im still chasing Vac leaks and replacing brittle hoses especially around the cold start air valve etc and the dizzy will be overhauled once I have her registered etc and probably recurved anyway so I get the best bang for buck.

Im not actually looking for economy and never did with Rangies anyway but she has to run "right" as Jen will be using it as her daily.

I'm mindfull of the fact that she sat around for well over 2 years too.

So muchos advance it is!

Next quandry, Electric windows.........

Something I avoided on English cars for years was electric windows and I have been spoilt by the elderly Mercs I own as their fast glass is still fast and works a treat even after 40 plus years.

In the last week I have also replaced a window reg on my Korean buzz box so I worked up the courage to tackle the Rangie windows.

SO! All 4 front switches replaced and the best of the old front switches cleaned and repurposed to the rear doors suddenly all of the windows are working apart from the front passenger which is I suspect stuffed or has a broken wire.

I then ran through a few tests of the electron flow versus resistance type as the old girl is 29 which range from the simple to the exotic.

Test One: More power, I grabbed a huge Calcium plate jump start battery and popped it on charge over night using the smart charger and with my 600 amp jump leads added it to the existing battery (Also charged and passed) for a bit more snot in the current department and yup, things in the magic smoke department worked a little better but still not well enough as the windows needed help still.
I started here because of the extra battery holder and as it would be an easy slack fix.

Test Two: grab my 100 amp test leads and supply Earth and Positive direct from the battery bypassing the engine bay harness...
Part A was with the Earth lead and it made no difference at all as I clamped one end to the Negative terminal (Still with both batteries hooked up) and tried a few spots on the car door around the hinges and the door latch.
Part B was with a HD positive probe into the loom at the window switch plug and made a slight difference to the front and more to the rear but still not roadworthy.

Test Three: Grabbing my trusty can of electrical contact cleaner (Id used this to clean up the old switches) I cleaned the switch connector blocks and this actually made a fair difference with both batteries hooked up but bugger all with just the in car battery.

So 3 hours in and I have a fair idea of what the issues are...

Rangies need 2 batteries.
Resistance is my enemy.
20 amp window switches are not adequate in old cars.
Im going to have to replace the bailey channels.
Some dill used Spray silicone grease on slidey bits and this has now set like caulking.
The original cabling for the windows whilst barely adequate in 1986 is no where near up to the job today.

The Fixes.

Switches (Done and made a difference for the better)
Run a new source feed from the battery into the switch bank using better terminals, a 30 amp inline ceramic/brass fuse bypassing the original cable and the fuse box. (The reason I use the ceramic core, brass element fuses is that they can get hot and cold many times and dont deform, they are probably IMO a tougher but more accurately rated fuse too).

Bailey channel, Im just going to replace the lot so its all snug and low friction.

Clean, check for mechanical play and re grease the window regulators and check the connections and clean them too.

Make a better earth tag in the car and see if I cant sneak a fresh earth lead into the door loom.

Finally replace the Left front winder motor or whole reg.


What annoyed me the most about the way the window electrics system works is that its half arsed, The wiring is simplicity in itself and a great design for something that could potentially go swimming and the layout is very direct, but the execution of the design is awful with bare minimum spec cable which is well below spec now and no way near spec connection to the source of the power it hungrily needs to operate.

Looks like a few days work ahead.

Tony

Good write up.

It's a job I need to do on mine too and I've suspected a few things you've now confirmed so I have the same task ahead. Will running a larger feed to the switch block fix things enough or is the wiring from the switches to the doors not up to scratch either?

One thing I was thinking of doing was running a new beefy supply into the doors and installed relays in the doors. yes, it's a lot more work but maybe worth stuffing around with?

I won't be doing mine for a while yet, so I'll wait to see how your go.

Originally Posted by bacicat

Good write up.

It's a job I need to do on mine too and I've suspected a few things you've now confirmed so I have the same task ahead. Will running a larger feed to the switch block fix things enough or is the wiring from the switches to the doors not up to scratch either?

One thing I was thinking of doing was running a new beefy supply into the doors and installed relays in the doors. yes, it's a lot more work but maybe worth stuffing around with?

I won't be doing mine for a while yet, so I'll wait to see how your go.

Thanks for the praise! I have a pet hate which involves questions asked without the full background or any indication of how skilled or not the person is, So I waffle on about when I did in detail.

In answer to your question about the feed from the power source to the switchblock Id initially run a good feed to the switchblock using a quality accessory bar hanging off the (+) tive terminal, I havent yet measured the current draw but I suspect from visual inspection of the original connection that it would struggle from new to operate more than one window well and 30 years later not even that so im going to open the feed to the switchblock first with either 30 or 40 amp cable of a good quality multistrand type.
Years ago I noted that LandRover in their infinite wisdom were soldering bullet connectors (Replacements available in Daves shop BTW) and that the wiring has always been a bit sub par so considering the Window switches are rated at 20 amps each the OEM wire doesnt stand a chance.

Another major factor I only touched on was mechanical resistance and after a quick look the other day theres a fair bit from the worn out Bailey Channel and as evidence I offer the simple action of pulling or helping the window to close and to note the down speed opposed to the up speed.
They go down quick ish although a little jerky and they dont descend cleanly or square to the door frame so Bailey channel replacement is a Must and a 10 min call to Scotts old Auto rubber informed me that fronts and rears are a touch over $40 each (Bargain) and that there are a few varied profiles for the rubber so they would like a sample.

Secondly the actual window regulators are usually dusty and cruddy with any assembly lube long gone or hard as caulking so they will get a clean and hopefully an in door service and grease using Coppercoat grease (Yes its dear but its the best).

If you have the time and inclination id also replace the door loom with a better gauge cable and new connectors which I believe are also available in Daves Shop if you are mail order inclined and they will probably have the right colours too.

I think that Relays would be overkill as the switches are up to the task providing the wiring is up to spec (and my kids were taught years ago that having electric window races led to a smack) but if a mechanical overhaul, new rubber, switches and lube failed id be inclined to check the winder motors next before doing more wiring.

As you may or may not know Brush motors draw more current and slow down as they age and sometimes even a simple clean and scrub/lube will bring them back to life and as all things RRC are electromechanical its simple enough although mucky and time consuming.

So you are right about the loom to the door being under spec (Most definitely feeding aged components) but as the loom only feeds one window and the Battery to switchblock feeds Four windows id not fuss over the door loom apart from checking for breaks/cracks until the feed and mechanical aspects are back to a known quantity.

Finally old sub par wire is not exclusive to Land Rover and as it ages you get Verdigris on copper wire (That green stuff) which makes the wire less efficient and raises the resistance which causes heat and allows the magic smoke to escape.
The longer the wire run or the higher current feed the more likely you are to have issues and a simple test with a multimeter will save a lot of trouble shooting.
Most batteries are 13.8 ish volts, Engine running about the same and IMO if the volts are less than that under the dash you have issues and I have found sub 11 volt's at the rear of cars.
The window switch with no load tested at 11.8 and under load dropped to under 10, I will do a no load test at the motor end when I get the doors exposed but im pretty sure that it wont be pretty.