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Thread: Air-conditioning

  1. #1
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    Air-conditioning

    I trying to resurrect a 1982 Range Rover Classic which came with a Australian installed AMC air-conditioning system.

    Is it worthwhile trying to get the original system working again or rather install a new modern aftermarket solution?

  2. #2
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    New hoses, new SD7H15 compressor and anything else that looks dodgy and it'll probably keep going for years. I doubt that you'd find an aftermarket these days that has the evaporator unit with the vents in the right place.

  3. #3
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    If its the same as the '92 model. Check the evaporator. Both of the cars I have here appear to have leakage from the evaporator. I've not yet found anywhere that sells them to replace it.

    They work really well.... Well at least they do while there is gas in them

    seeya,
    Shane L
    Proper cars--
    '92 Range Rover 3.8V8 ... 5spd manual
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I :burnrubber:
    '63 ID19 x 2 :wheelchair:
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas
    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual :zzz:
    '11 Poogoe RCZ HDI 6spd manual

  4. #4
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    If you've ever had the dash vents and centre panel out it's a great time to get into the evaporator housing and clean it all out.
    Inside you're likely to find all manner of garbage, including leaves etc. and when you remove the black gauze filter matrix, the evaporator is also likely to be filthy.
    Time to clean it. pull the blower motors and give them a super-thorough clean and relube the shaft bearings
    You can vacuum the core fins, carefully - then look for the telltale signs of dye tracer (greenish) on the fins and around the joins on each end. deeper cleaning is achievable with an evaporative solvent like Contact cleaner, or there are specific hvac evap core cleaning aerosol foams that dissolve particulate. Up to you.
    It's common for leaks to exist, and the only true solution to the problem is to replace the evap core if you find them. so if there is an obvious leak, don't proceed, just get on with replacement.

    Which isn't as hard as it sounds - the issue is that you have to find a good hvac guy if you don't know what you are doing.

    If you want to DIY, Access to the catalogs for evaporators from auto electrical suppliers is a given, and noting that LHD / RHD are not always interchangeable.
    Do not reduce the size of the evap. If you do, all the refrigerant/oil weights for the system become void and you can overpressurize it.
    It's best to know exactly what you have in front of you, and regardless, you're better off also replacing the TX valve, and the hoses if they are old. Then you need to flush the compressor and condensor (if the condensor is knackered, then you might as well replace that too - otherwise it's an exercise in futility and you will double the costs of the overhaul.

    It's not a particularly difficult thing to replace all the hoses, rec/drier, pressure sensors, the TXvalve, evap and condensor. Those parts can be replaced with generic stuff that 'fits' often there are direct replacements available, or upgraded units in terms of the condensor. Hoses and fittings are available from places like ashdown-ingram etc, and rotating electrical / compressors are also available from those places or cooldrive etc. whatever floats your boat. You can also order RRC-specific bits from places like rimmer bros or bearmach etc. Do your due diligence and you'll soon see why you don't "just replace one bit" in a hvac system when you have a leak. contamination is the cause of most failures and in hvac, it's guaranteed to drastically shorten the life of the expensive components in the system.

    In the end, you can DIY and save some $ on parts and labour and own some more tools, if that's your thing - especially useful if you have a 'fleet' of older vehicles which will eventually all need hose replacements / compressor overhauls etc. But leaving a one-off to the auto ac guys (who know their stuff) won't be cheap and they will warrant their work for at least a few years. Stay away from a guy who offers no warranty or a parts-only warranty. These are the same guys who butcher cars and damage compressors and fittings, over charge systems and let you drive out with ice cold hvac only for it to fail a week or three later... I've seen enough of them over the years.

    Don't forget, in Australia, you actually need a license to discharge and recover refrigerant from a vehicle. It's such a seriously over-reactive EPA issue that every gram must be accounted for and this is why R134a is so regulated.
    You could use bang gas, or hychill, but hychill is a much drier gas and increases wear in a system. the oil compatibility issue is also existent if you have not properly flushed the system and it can acidify and corrode alloy and copper components, stuff compressor internals etc. The bottom line is - Know exactly what you are doing, get someone to do the gas recharge if you can't, and make sure the entire system is flushed and tested before adding oil and charging. It's straightforward procedure and not difficult, but if you're not thoroughly competent in following procedure, leave it to someone who is.

    Last I checked, a genuine evap core was somewhere around 1500 bucks. So that's enough context as to why you do the whole lot and not just one part.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercguy View Post
    If you've ever had the dash vents and centre panel out it's a great time to get into the evaporator housing and clean it all out.
    Inside you're likely to find all manner of garbage, including leaves etc. and when you remove the black gauze filter matrix, the evaporator is also likely to be filthy.
    Time to clean it. pull the blower motors and give them a super-thorough clean and relube the shaft bearings
    You can vacuum the core fins, carefully - then look for the telltale signs of dye tracer (greenish) on the fins and around the joins on each end. deeper cleaning is achievable with an evaporative solvent like Contact cleaner, or there are specific hvac evap core cleaning aerosol foams that dissolve particulate. Up to you.
    It's common for leaks to exist, and the only true solution to the problem is to replace the evap core if you find them. so if there is an obvious leak, don't proceed, just get on with replacement.

    Which isn't as hard as it sounds - the issue is that you have to find a good hvac guy if you don't know what you are doing.

    If you want to DIY, Access to the catalogs for evaporators from auto electrical suppliers is a given, and noting that LHD / RHD are not always interchangeable.
    Do not reduce the size of the evap. If you do, all the refrigerant/oil weights for the system become void and you can overpressurize it.
    It's best to know exactly what you have in front of you, and regardless, you're better off also replacing the TX valve, and the hoses if they are old. Then you need to flush the compressor and condensor (if the condensor is knackered, then you might as well replace that too - otherwise it's an exercise in futility and you will double the costs of the overhaul.

    It's not a particularly difficult thing to replace all the hoses, rec/drier, pressure sensors, the TXvalve, evap and condensor. Those parts can be replaced with generic stuff that 'fits' often there are direct replacements available, or upgraded units in terms of the condensor. Hoses and fittings are available from places like ashdown-ingram etc, and rotating electrical / compressors are also available from those places or cooldrive etc. whatever floats your boat. You can also order RRC-specific bits from places like rimmer bros or bearmach etc. Do your due diligence and you'll soon see why you don't "just replace one bit" in a hvac system when you have a leak. contamination is the cause of most failures and in hvac, it's guaranteed to drastically shorten the life of the expensive components in the system.

    In the end, you can DIY and save some $ on parts and labour and own some more tools, if that's your thing - especially useful if you have a 'fleet' of older vehicles which will eventually all need hose replacements / compressor overhauls etc. But leaving a one-off to the auto ac guys (who know their stuff) won't be cheap and they will warrant their work for at least a few years. Stay away from a guy who offers no warranty or a parts-only warranty. These are the same guys who butcher cars and damage compressors and fittings, over charge systems and let you drive out with ice cold hvac only for it to fail a week or three later... I've seen enough of them over the years.

    Don't forget, in Australia, you actually need a license to discharge and recover refrigerant from a vehicle. It's such a seriously over-reactive EPA issue that every gram must be accounted for and this is why R134a is so regulated.
    You could use bang gas, or hychill, but hychill is a much drier gas and increases wear in a system. the oil compatibility issue is also existent if you have not properly flushed the system and it can acidify and corrode alloy and copper components, stuff compressor internals etc. The bottom line is - Know exactly what you are doing, get someone to do the gas recharge if you can't, and make sure the entire system is flushed and tested before adding oil and charging. It's straightforward procedure and not difficult, but if you're not thoroughly competent in following procedure, leave it to someone who is.

    Last I checked, a genuine evap core was somewhere around 1500 bucks. So that's enough context as to why you do the whole lot and not just one part.
    Er, I hope hychill is a "dry" gas .... she's going to mess up your A/C if there is moisture in it. Hychill will work with whatever oil is currently in there. I've been told this by the local A/C guy too "It'll destroy your A/C ... Never use hychill, its full of moisture". What a load of crap. The oil is what lubricates. All the gas does is go in circles and move from liquid to gas state .... over and over and over. Hychill certainly does NOT have moisture in it! How could it possibly "wear" the system, when you have "oil" circulating WITH the refrigerant.

    By my evaporators show signs of leakage (dye around the exposed pipes on the ends). I figure if it all leaks away over a year .... another $10 bucks of bang gas worries no-one. I wouldn't do this with R134a ... Last time I investigated R134a they were talking links between the stuff and testicle cancer (ie: the last thing we want leaking into our sealed cars).

    The R134a stuff you mention is all bulldust .... Have you ever worked on an A/C system that actually has gas in it ??? The reason your looking at it is the stuff has escaped so the A/C no longer works. The insanity of saying it must be "recovered" is ludicrous. My last car I had about 15 invoices of "checked for leaks, added dye, regassed A/C". Over about 3 years and 1/2 dozen differenent A/C places. Yes, they "must" recover it, but they are all perfectly happy to pump another load of refrigerant into a leaky system .... and they COULD verify it's leaking just by pressurising it with nitrogen and watching for leakdown overnight. I purchased the car ........ and spent 18 god damn hours changing the evaporator to fix the issue ( that is NOT an exageration, it took me 18hours to replace that thing laying on my back in the car). Guess how much I now HATE Citroen XM's I near bloody danced for joy the day that thing drove up my drive and away ...

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Proper cars--
    '92 Range Rover 3.8V8 ... 5spd manual
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I :burnrubber:
    '63 ID19 x 2 :wheelchair:
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas
    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual :zzz:
    '11 Poogoe RCZ HDI 6spd manual

  6. #6
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    Shane,
    I am going to politely disagree.
    I have my RAC01/AAC licenses. There are legislative rules with which we must comply, as well as a national standardized code of practice. I also work on Hazmat refrigerant-based fire suppression systems used in datacentres (NAFS-III - aka halon) as well.

    The 'Hychill' refrigerant compound actually is "drier" than r134a - in that it is less hygroscopic, but my reference about dryness is about the relative standalone lubricity of the refrigerant compound itself, not the moisture content in a sealed system. The reason the receiver/drier exists in all AAC's is because there always is moisture in a system. It migrates through threaded o-ring sealed connections, schraeder valves, and all components where a mating surface exists in the path of a refrigerant in it's gaseous or liquid state. AAC's are 'closed' systems in laymans terms but they are not actually closed systems as in 'sealed' systems, such as refrigeration appliances.

    Some refrigerant compounds can also be quite hygroscopic in nature, yet another reason for the existence of the drying agent (rec/drier). Thermal cycling also creates / promotes / enhances moisture accumulation, which is yet another reason the receiver drier exists.
    The patended refrigerant compounds designed by the corporate 'multinationals' (e.g. dow chemical) are designed to have very specific properties and behaviours in an AAC system.
    One of these is the compounds lubricity, and the period it will last without excessive shear or breakdown, explosion or oxidation in a closed system without oil.
    The reason the oil exists in a system is to lubricate the compressor primarily, and the tx valve. Secondarily, it provides an additional seal in adjoining mating surfaces. Some oils also provide enhanced corrosion protection. The refrigerants are designed so they can operate in systems where the lubricant volume is outside specification - i.e. they have an operational safety margin, which prevents overheating (possible explosive venting) or icing damage which can destroy components or contribute to a catastrophic failure.
    Hychill currently falls outside the regulatory envelope - for how long it is not known. There will be a time when it is legislated, like all other 'greenhouse' gases.
    If the governments have their way, Pretty soon, cow farts will be legislated. Read into that what you like.

    There are additional industry regulations and legislative requirements surrounding the use of certain refrigerant compounds in automotive applications, as opposed to say a home.
    You can look them up if you have an interest in legislation:

    Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas Management Act 1989 (as amended in 2003)

    Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas Management Regulations 1995


    There are specific lubricant requirements for different refrigerants (oil compatibility) which are usually specified by the chemical manufacturer. Ironically, it's usually that same company which produces the compatible oil.
    However, It's not enough to simply quip a retort without specific knowledge of the requirements of the different oils which are compatible with or not compatible with each other and with specific each refrigerant compound types. There's a reason for the use of specific oils with different refrigerant types. It's not simply a BTU capacity or system pressure related discussion. It is a chemical compatibility issue. Not all oils are compatible with each other, nor are they all compatible with residual oil in purged systems which have not been properly flushed.

    These are some areas, but not all of the contributing factors/reasons why people have premature failures in repaired AAC systems.

    The R12 'myth' is another one that someone's going to bring up I guess. and Legacy mineral oil specifications and PAG compatibility.

    I'd like to know who these licensed AAC guys are that you say are happy to pump a known leaking system full again. It's a huge no-no, and only an idiot would jeopardize their license and the legal ramifications.

    Usually the reason a system is recharged is because the diagnosed leak is not correctly diagnosed (due diligence) or because an owner doesn't want to effect a costly repair on a leaking system. The latter is far more common. Even moreso is when both parties know the leak exists, it is discussed and a 'cost' is negotiated where a partial fix is implemented, rather than the technician turning the owner away and refusing to recharge the leaking system.

    That's right, It's illegal and the fines are severe. Worse than an owner discharging a full system, which is also illegal.

    1.1.1 In Australia, any person whose business includes the manufacturing, installation, servicing, modifying, or dismantling of any refrigeration and/or air conditioning equipment which:

    (a) contains
    (b) is designed to use, or (c) is manufactured using

    any Fluorocarbon refrigerant, must ensure that they and/or any of their employees who handle Fluorocarbon refrigerant are appropriately licensed under the Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas Management Act and any regulations that supersede it.

    1.1.3 Any person whose business is or includes the manufacturing, installation, servicing, modifying, or dismantling of any refrigeration and/or air conditioning equipment which:
    (a) contains
    (b) is designed to use, or (c) is manufactured using

    a Fluorocarbon refrigerant, must ensure that they and/or any of their employees who handle Fluorocarbon refrigerant are provided with a copy of this code and work to the standards set out herein.

    1.2 Refrigerant venting

    1.2.1 Fluorocarbon refrigerant must not be willingly released to the atmosphere by any person by any means where the release is avoidable, including:
    (a) venting refrigerant directly, and
    (b) charging r
    efrigerant into equipment with identifed leaks.

    We have to account for every single gram and the equipment and records are checked "at random" (regularly, without notice - usually once every quarter).

    The australian refrigeration council - Arctick.org has all the current codes of practice which we must adhere to and comply with.
    Home | ARC Industry Site
    for your reference.

    You may wish to be more careful when 'critiquing' or referencing your local AAC tradespeople. Perhaps they aren't 100% compliant with the codes of practice, but you shouldn't publicly dump them in it unless you absolutely have proof they are non-compliant. Many times it is not just the tech, but the vehicle owner or both.

    This exact discussion is exactly why gases such as hychill are popular - non-licensed people have easy access to them, and with that comes all the 'non-compliance' issues which make it worse for the people who legitimately work with HFC's and work within all the excessive legislation that has arisen from FW's who think they know better than the people who actually have the materials handling licenses and operational safety practices and standards compliance.



    </rant>


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercguy View Post
    Shane,
    I am going to politely disagree.
    I have my RAC01/AAC licenses. There are legislative rules with which we must comply, as well as a national standardized code of practice. I also work on Hazmat refrigerant-based fire suppression systems used in datacentres (NAFS-III - aka halon) as well.

    The 'Hychill' refrigerant compound actually is "drier" than r134a - in that it is less hygroscopic, but my reference about dryness is about the relative standalone lubricity of the refrigerant compound itself, not the moisture content in a sealed system. The reason the receiver/drier exists in all AAC's is because there always is moisture in a system. It migrates through threaded o-ring sealed connections, schraeder valves, and all components where a mating surface exists in the path of a refrigerant in it's gaseous or liquid state. AAC's are 'closed' systems in laymans terms but they are not actually closed systems as in 'sealed' systems, such as refrigeration appliances.

    Some refrigerant compounds can also be quite hygroscopic in nature, yet another reason for the existence of the drying agent (rec/drier). Thermal cycling also creates / promotes / enhances moisture accumulation, which is yet another reason the receiver drier exists.
    The patended refrigerant compounds designed by the corporate 'multinationals' (e.g. dow chemical) are designed to have very specific properties and behaviours in an AAC system.
    One of these is the compounds lubricity, and the period it will last without excessive shear or breakdown, explosion or oxidation in a closed system without oil.
    The reason the oil exists in a system is to lubricate the compressor primarily, and the tx valve. Secondarily, it provides an additional seal in adjoining mating surfaces. Some oils also provide enhanced corrosion protection. The refrigerants are designed so they can operate in systems where the lubricant volume is outside specification - i.e. they have an operational safety margin, which prevents overheating (possible explosive venting) or icing damage which can destroy components or contribute to a catastrophic failure.
    Hychill currently falls outside the regulatory envelope - for how long it is not known. There will be a time when it is legislated, like all other 'greenhouse' gases.
    If the governments have their way, Pretty soon, cow farts will be legislated. Read into that what you like.

    There are additional industry regulations and legislative requirements surrounding the use of certain refrigerant compounds in automotive applications, as opposed to say a home.
    You can look them up if you have an interest in legislation:

    Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas Management Act 1989 (as amended in 2003)

    Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas Management Regulations 1995


    There are specific lubricant requirements for different refrigerants (oil compatibility) which are usually specified by the chemical manufacturer. Ironically, it's usually that same company which produces the compatible oil.
    However, It's not enough to simply quip a retort without specific knowledge of the requirements of the different oils which are compatible with or not compatible with each other and with specific each refrigerant compound types. There's a reason for the use of specific oils with different refrigerant types. It's not simply a BTU capacity or system pressure related discussion. It is a chemical compatibility issue. Not all oils are compatible with each other, nor are they all compatible with residual oil in purged systems which have not been properly flushed.

    These are some areas, but not all of the contributing factors/reasons why people have premature failures in repaired AAC systems.

    The R12 'myth' is another one that someone's going to bring up I guess. and Legacy mineral oil specifications and PAG compatibility.

    I'd like to know who these licensed AAC guys are that you say are happy to pump a known leaking system full again. It's a huge no-no, and only an idiot would jeopardize their license and the legal ramifications.

    Usually the reason a system is recharged is because the diagnosed leak is not correctly diagnosed (due diligence) or because an owner doesn't want to effect a costly repair on a leaking system. The latter is far more common. Even moreso is when both parties know the leak exists, it is discussed and a 'cost' is negotiated where a partial fix is implemented, rather than the technician turning the owner away and refusing to recharge the leaking system.

    That's right, It's illegal and the fines are severe. Worse than an owner discharging a full system, which is also illegal.

    1.1.1 In Australia, any person whose business includes the manufacturing, installation, servicing, modifying, or dismantling of any refrigeration and/or air conditioning equipment which:

    (a) contains
    (b) is designed to use, or (c) is manufactured using

    any Fluorocarbon refrigerant, must ensure that they and/or any of their employees who handle Fluorocarbon refrigerant are appropriately licensed under the Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas Management Act and any regulations that supersede it.

    1.1.3 Any person whose business is or includes the manufacturing, installation, servicing, modifying, or dismantling of any refrigeration and/or air conditioning equipment which:
    (a) contains
    (b) is designed to use, or (c) is manufactured using

    a Fluorocarbon refrigerant, must ensure that they and/or any of their employees who handle Fluorocarbon refrigerant are provided with a copy of this code and work to the standards set out herein.

    1.2 Refrigerant venting

    1.2.1 Fluorocarbon refrigerant must not be willingly released to the atmosphere by any person by any means where the release is avoidable, including:
    (a) venting refrigerant directly, and
    (b) charging r
    efrigerant into equipment with identifed leaks.

    We have to account for every single gram and the equipment and records are checked "at random" (regularly, without notice - usually once every quarter).

    The australian refrigeration council - Arctick.org has all the current codes of practice which we must adhere to and comply with.
    Home | ARC Industry Site
    for your reference.

    You may wish to be more careful when 'critiquing' or referencing your local AAC tradespeople. Perhaps they aren't 100% compliant with the codes of practice, but you shouldn't publicly dump them in it unless you absolutely have proof they are non-compliant. Many times it is not just the tech, but the vehicle owner or both.

    This exact discussion is exactly why gases such as hychill are popular - non-licensed people have easy access to them, and with that comes all the 'non-compliance' issues which make it worse for the people who legitimately work with HFC's and work within all the excessive legislation that has arisen from FW's who think they know better than the people who actually have the materials handling licenses and operational safety practices and standards compliance.



    </rant>

    Wow ... I'm going to sit down and read this again tonight... as you know way more about this than I ever will. From a persons perspective that just tinkers with there own junk ... I'm not fussed about the dryness of a gas if used without oil. as that is a scenario I'm never worrying about ( i never intend to have a system without oil in it)

    As someone with 80litres of high octane fuel in a plastic fuel tank ... and 70 litres of LPG sitting in a cylinder in the car with me. I'm not hugely concerned about the 280grams of highly flammable and very explosive gas in my air conditioner. I actually did investigate this years ago before using Hychill. There is actually quite a few A/C fires if you search on google. The only thing I could find in common between them they were all R134a fires (its the oil under pressure that burns so nicely).

    Remember I'm only talking a car system ... in an old ****box ... with a few hundred grams of gas in it. Even then its not 100% safe ( is anything in life ). I have a friend on another forum that actually burnt himself badly using hychill .... He unplugged the high side service valve on a car he was working on, and it sprayed across the running motors distributor ................................ This guy is a VERY smart person, but even he managed to do this. Sure we would all say "who would be dumb enough to do that " ......................... But if your not thinking ......................

    Its like everything in life ... You need to look at the risks and decide if they are suitable for you.

    My local A/C guys here are great. You will probably find my referencing to one in particular in town often. I didn't mention names in the above posts.... and the car wasn't purchased in my home town. I purchased it in Adelaide and drove it home. However what I found was certainly the truth. There was HEAPS of invoices there from various A/C places. The A/C itself had more dye than oil in it when I pulled it apart


    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Proper cars--
    '92 Range Rover 3.8V8 ... 5spd manual
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I :burnrubber:
    '63 ID19 x 2 :wheelchair:
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas
    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual :zzz:
    '11 Poogoe RCZ HDI 6spd manual

  8. #8
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    I disagree with the term 'dry', the term you're looking for is miscible and soluble.

    This describes a refrigerants ability to 'carry' oil.
    No conventional refrigerant has any lubricating properties at all, you'd regard them as solvents (which is exactly what the old and outlawed R11 was used for, as well as a refrigerant)

    Miscibility and solubility varies depending on refrigerant and oil type, but I've never heard of issues with hydrocarbons.
    Hydrocarbons are added to R134a to create blends that are miscible with mineral oil, generally using isobutane, isopropane and Isopropyl alcohol. Without these extra compounds R134a will not carry any mineral oil, hence the reason POE or PAO's in domestic/commercial fridge, or PAG's in automotive use must be used in 134a systems.

    The oil type is changed or modified to improve miscibility and/or solubility, not the other way around.

    As for HC usage, walk into any Aldi and those little freezers all contain roughly 100g of R290 (propane)

  9. #9
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    To avoid pulling the entire dash to refurb the aircon on my 93 Range Rover, I accepted the recommendation of the local specialists to change over to Hi-Chill and I have been very pleased with the result. It meant changing several hoses, the drier etc but was much more economical than pulling the entire system just to use the old gas.

    My associates at the Land Rover shop gave me a hard time over that, claiming it was "illegal" There is no way the local aircon specialists would have used it if that was the case. Your comment "Hychill currently falls outside the regulatory envelope - for how long it is not known" is almost certainly the correct interpretation

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