It's over.

Oh crap ...l'm thinking broken cambelt .... does the valve train move when you crank the motor ? Either that or it dropped a valve if its only 1 cylinder. I know early sodium filled valves could break the end of the valve off.

why does my brain say "fit a 350 chev" :) .... Endless cheap parts and availability. all alloy LS series is just to powerful and you'll end up breaking everything and driving yourself nuts.

I do love that wheezy little v8 in the ****box here ..... There's no way I'd change it to a diesel (then again I have other cars that don't use a lot of petrol to drive as well).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

Oh crap ...l'm thinking broken cambelt .... does the valve train move when you crank the motor ? Either that or it dropped a valve if its only 1 cylinder. I know early sodium filled valves could break the end of the valve off.

why does my brain say "fit a 350 chev" :) .... Endless cheap parts and availability. all alloy LS series is just to powerful and you'll end up breaking everything and driving yourself nuts.

I do love that wheezy little v8 in the ****box here ..... There's no way I'd change it to a diesel (then again I have other cars that don't use a lot of petrol to drive as well).

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I get it - but if I wanted a non OEM alloy v8, I have a few Mercedes ones here to choose from - and the irony is there's a 5.6 M117 here that Auto Kugel Gmbh used to swap into RRC's back in the day... But there's the disco 2 v8 here (fresh, but just as gutless as all RR v8's) and there's the OM606.... and geez - it's an arm-twist to not go down this route. It's been in the back of my mind ever since the tdi started to irritate me with the undetectable piston slap noise... now the irony is I think I found that noise... but now I'm probably looking at a rebuild on the tdi - because "what else is unknown" - and it might be 130K on the engine, but ahh..... yeah can't trust it now.

And I have the 200tdi manifold here with the t25 flange and it's a proper twinscroll manifold blah blah blah... It was right about the time to do that instead of a new core on the 300tdi manifold - mostly to help tidy the engine bay and make it more logical and better clearances etc. but I didn't want to bite the bullet just yet - and then this happens and well... what do you do. quick fix is new rocker shaft and a squiz down the bore of #4 to see if it's munted - and then - well it's either head-off or worse.... maybe bottom end as well... then the costs get out of hand for something that really makes sweet f-a power.... and that damn 606 is sitting there staring at me... Even the missus is making suggestions about putting in the 606... and I'm hoping this will be an inexpensive fix - but once I tear into it.... the die will be cast. So I better move it up to the back shed and get it in place to do 'engine out' and this story might take a turn in an unintended direction.

Let's hope it's a minor issue - and I don't need to pull the head off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mercguy

I get it - but if I wanted a non OEM alloy v8, I have a few Mercedes ones here to choose from - and the irony is there's a 5.6 M117 here that Auto Kugel Gmbh used to swap into RRC's back in the day... But there's the disco 2 v8 here (fresh, but just as gutless as all RR v8's) and there's the OM606.... and geez - it's an arm-twist to not go down this route. It's been in the back of my mind ever since the tdi started to irritate me with the undetectable piston slap noise... now the irony is I think I found that noise... but now I'm probably looking at a rebuild on the tdi - because "what else is unknown" - and it might be 130K on the engine, but ahh..... yeah can't trust it now.

And I have the 200tdi manifold here with the t25 flange and it's a proper twinscroll manifold blah blah blah... It was right about the time to do that instead of a new core on the 300tdi manifold - mostly to help tidy the engine bay and make it more logical and better clearances etc. but I didn't want to bite the bullet just yet - and then this happens and well... what do you do. quick fix is new rocker shaft and a squiz down the bore of #4 to see if it's munted - and then - well it's either head-off or worse.... maybe bottom end as well... then the costs get out of hand for something that really makes sweet f-a power.... and that damn 606 is sitting there staring at me... Even the missus is making suggestions about putting in the 606... and I'm hoping this will be an inexpensive fix - but once I tear into it.... the die will be cast. So I better move it up to the back shed and get it in place to do 'engine out' and this story might take a turn in an unintended direction.

Let's hope it's a minor issue - and I don't need to pull the head off.

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What do you gain with the 606? it looks to be less powerful, probably heavier. Is it more reliable. Is it stand alone, or do you need an expensive aftermarket controller to run it? The M117 sounds interesting. Isn't it a heavy weight dinosaur ? ( I know nothing about them :) ). This would be my pick if its reliable. Just go easy on the loud pedal in low range so you don't blow the diffs up.

How hard is it to fit the M117.... I would go this route as you already have it there .... and I'm a bit nuts, I like "different" :) I really can't see the point messing with a gutless, old diesel when diesel is so much more expensive than petrol ... and probably alway will be (unless you intend to do huge milages ... not towing)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

What do you gain with the 606? it looks to be less powerful, probably heavier. Is it more reliable. Is it stand alone, or do you need an expensive aftermarket controller to run it? The M117 sounds interesting. Isn't it a heavy weight dinosaur ? ( I know nothing about them :) ). This would be my pick if its reliable. Just go easy on the loud pedal in low range so you don't blow the diffs up.

How hard is it to fit the M117.... I would go this route as you already have it there .... and I'm a bit nuts, I like "different" :) I really can't see the point messing with a gutless, old diesel when diesel is so much more expensive than petrol ... and probably alway will be (unless you intend to do huge milages ... not towing)

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the 606 in stock trim is about 140kw from 3L It has a full mechanical IP not an EDC unit as fitted to cars. Also bolts up to R380 with adapter plate easily, or use the 722.6 trans from ML and then adapter plate to LT230 - I have standalone transmission controller, so that wouldn't be an issue.

the 5.6L m117 is all alloy sohc v8, and is 220kW. CIS-E jetronic (mechanical) and a very broad flat torque curve. I had thought about swapping this into the RRC many years ago but the fuel consumption figures for the v8 are only about 17L/100 for the same engine in a G-wagen.
I opted for the om606 for diesel, longevity, power (stock engine good for up to 450bhp no issues) upgrades are literally bolt-on.

My concern about the 606 is reliability of the R380 on a slightly uprated turbo.
but logically - it;s sitting here, it's a small amount of work to make it fit, needs a couple of LR-specific mods (rear sump from om648 and a high mount alternator bracket) and the adapter plate for either the gearbox or transfer case depending on the transmission choice.

I think an automatic might be a nicer thing to live with than the R380 - but I'll need to think abotu that briefly.

right now though, need to make some time for compression test and borescope to see how bad the 300tdi is. if the damage is minimal, I'll fix it and move along. if it's munted or needs more than 2K spend, that 606 will go in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mercguy

......................

My concern about the 606 is reliability of the R380 on a slightly uprated turbo.
but logically - it;s sitting here, it's a small amount of work to make it fit, needs a couple of LR-specific mods (rear sump from om648 and a high mount alternator bracket) and the adapter plate for either the gearbox or transfer case depending on the transmission choice.

I think an automatic might be a nicer thing to live with than the R380 - but I'll need to think abotu that briefly.

.................

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There are a few 606 (and other Merc diesel) conversions in the Pirate LR section, with varied results

The site is not as user friendly as it was back in the day of heavily modded RRC's.

Dougal has some useful info on turbos for 606's here:

Disco 1 OM606 Build | Pirate 4x4

cheers, DL

Yep, I've seen that stuff awhile back and have no interest iin compound turbos for om606. The G-wagon guys and Goran have done superpumps to death as well- We've done a few 606swaps into other mercs as well as pootrols and they all have a compromise according to the 'owner' and it's usually along the lines of "didn't know" at the time -

the 606 is basically a diesel version of the m104, which many don't know is what the 2jz based itself on. all toyota did was add turbo to a lower compression version of the almost identical innards. True copycat performance and a well engineered one.

Turbo on a stock m104 (m104 is n/a) is good for 6-800bhp without mods. valvesprings for higher rpm and after that you have to go inside.
OM606 exactly the same - high revver, needs valve springs for more than 5500 regular spinning, has much heavier piston, but essentially same bottom end specs. inlet cam is only for the lumpy idle 8mm element + crews with twin SX300's and 5" piping. Not a land rover application.

In fact, most people go about it the wrong way - because they have no background in MB engineering or the evolution of how these things came about. So they chuck an HX30 or 351 or HX40 on it and a big set of elements and build it up themselves and wonder why the thing runs like ****.

the OE turbo has good manners, but loses top end and has about 20-22psi max boost in it - if you can get it to spin the motor hard enough for long enough. The original om606.962 came with 6mm elements in the EDC pump, which was primarily in sedans and not in gwagens. and not in the australian market. in fact the OM606, 613 and 648 engines are virtually non-existent in the local market delivered mercedes - and if you found one, chances are it was a UK private import vehicle, not an au delivered one.

There are hybrid turbos for the 606 in aftermarket and some are designed for the bigger element substitution. but a 6mm element will get 300bhp without any silly or stupid "mods" and deliver low-end. The key is the pump, and the turbo. Even the standard exhaust manifold (which everyone slags on) can deliver over 350bhp without any mods - just a flange adapter and a t3 housing turbo is all that is required - correct sizing of the turbine housing is the sole factor in making the motor work in the right application.

the 4x4 yokels jumped on these because someone said "it's the 2jz of the diesel world" when it's all arse about face really. These things were in production before the 2J was on paper. AND they are nothing like a 2jz- fuel type notwithstanding.
the hype was centred around the engine liking to rev like a petrol motor and yokel 4x4 owners want big turbos and big noise and lots of soot and to go nowehere except down to the axles in a bog.
and the scandi tractor pull and drift scenes helped all of that to happen.

have no desire to put large elements in my IP - It's already been properly built by bosch service to the specs I required with the non-edc rear, plus correct alda callibration. It's got specs that will get me 320bhp and axle snapping torque if I want to wring it's neck. It was intended to go into my w124 wagon, and is built for that application. Now, I have a different problem, and the w124's standard m103 which is good enough for the wagon might just have to stay there.

don't want to do a petrol v8 - because I already have that in the rrc and the d2. Intentionally, I will leave this until after Christmas, because I first have to get time to establish exactly what is wrong with the tdi first. It's probably munted, but I have been wrong before and no doubt will be wrong again in the future - but the sound that developed between starting it yesterday to move it up to the other shed, means that #4 cyl has bigger problems than I had previously heard. I'm now guessing piston contact = rod bearing failure. but oil is clean... go figure.

So while I prep the shed for the inevitable end of year project, I have to give some consideration to what is already in the engine bay, and if it is cheaper to simply fix that (and keep my om606 for it's intended target) or
choose which engine / trans swap is going into the LSE. I could scout around for a donor w163 ML500 which would be almost as cheap as swapping in the m117, and while I'd consider an om642, the hot v turbo and actuator and oil cooler oring issues and all the junk between the v of that motor is a 100% no-go zone for the zombie apocalypse LSE.

I'm pretty sure the 606 will end up in the LSE, but ahh... just trying to find excuses to not have another christmas project car. I have other things around the house that would better reflect spending $ on than a range rover.

need a week to consider other options I may also have available (local mechanic mate has ideas of engines I am not familliar with)...

I do have an opcon mx422 autorotor (screwcharger) for the m117.... and a supercharged 500+bhp on stock internals 5.6L v8 really does sound like a stupid option... since the LSE is configured for diesel.

we can dream of absurdities - and laugh at them... it's just worrying when you start to give the idea some legs.