Thread: Landy's n Linux

Originally Posted by incisor

NO freely available operating system is immune unless it has been hardened or specifically setup for certain tasks... and the average joe with his suse, fedora, debian, mandrake or with a *bsd disc in his hand has no clue how to harden the box before it goes on the net.. nor do they really want to know...

As aposed to what? the average joe that has a Win32 based pc?

"NO purchased available Windows operating system is immune unless it has been hardened or specifically setup for certain tasks (even then it's highly doubtful)... and the average joe with his Windows disc in his hand has no clue how to harden (even marginally) the box before it goes on the net.. nor do they really want to know...

The "nor do they really want to know" is far more likely with a Windows based pc and a Windows user than it is with a *nix based box.

Best regards
DarrenR

apt-get reality_check!

with windozs they can go buy a security package for under 100 bucks and it is then more secure than most *nix boxes off the cd..

there are a couple of exceptions, and debian isnt one of them unless you do a base install... which is useless as a home workstation.

debian is a great distribution but by no means secure out of the box if you pick for example "workstation with x" as the install. the punters then have to learn how to harden it and play with services etc etc, you cant go and buy a $100 package that will do it for you like you can with windoze.

redhat suse mandrake etc all have the same weakness when aimed at the consumer market. prouser and server market is a different story...

linux and the other *nix variants are great for enthusiasts, who like to fiddle and learn how things work. the vast majority of people have absolutely no interest in how it works, just that it works with a point and a click and they feel secure if they spend that 100 bucks getting it there... thats why windows is where it is... no 1 by 5 country miles, it is all in the perception and marketing, with a dab of reality....

FYI, i was a debian consultant for years and was a pretty big believer in the dream, not that it means anything these days... i also ran a rather successful isp on it for years so i have a little knowledge in the area IMHO.

i moved my interests to freebsd as it much more secure in a commercial environment in much less time and requires a lot less maintenance when online. I still do a few debian installs for customers that prefer linux, and still love its good bits.... much much better distrubtion than anything rpm based IMHO.

Originally Posted by Rovernaut

I switched form XP to Kubuntu 6.10.
Kubuntu does everything I need , office, use Firefox as browser, thunderbird for email. Gimp, and lots of other apps. Kcopy to copy my DVDs, K3B to burn
I have Win 2000 installed on a VMware server within Kubnutu to run a few things like Landrover Microcat and Rave.
(For the kids I have left dual booting with XP so they can play their MS games.)

but do you know how secure it is out of the box? do you know if sshd is ruuning on the box? do you know how to edit or control what services are running?

do you know what tcp extentions are or inetd.conf is or what you can control with the hosts.allow file or know how to setup sshd so only a certain user can access from the outside world or only access it from certain machines?

if you do then you have taken way more interest in it than most do, as these are important files when securing a linux box.

my argument isnt that it doesnt work, it certainly does work, my argument is that in most cases it is no more secure than windows out of the box. sure it doesnt have the virus worry that windozs does, but linux boxes are compromised just as easily as windows boxes if they arent setup properly...they are just compromised a different way ...

incisor,
Your first comments were generalising, I simply substituted the words "Linux, *nix" with the word "Windows", and it all still made sense, but generalising all the same.

points to note;
The average Joe Windows user doesn't go out and buy a "security package for under 100 bucks". If they do most drop it after so many months of either not understanding the pop-up messages or having intermittent problems such as "I can't surf the internet", "I can't get mail" etc etc.

The "security package" will often lead the average Joe Windows user into a false sense of the O/S being secure. I've lost count of the number of customers that bring in a Win32 based computer and say "there is something wrong with it, but I have such-n-such brand internet security installed, so I know it's not virus or malware related" to find that it actually was virus/malware related.

Your comments; "Linux and the other *nix variants are great for enthusiasts, who like to fiddle and learn how things work. the vast majority of people have absolutely no interest in how it works, just that it works with a point and a click and they feel secure if they spend that 100 bucks getting it there... thats why windows is where it is... no 1 by 5 country miles, it is all in the perception and marketing, with a dab of reality...."

Yes, correct.... I completely agree with all of your above statement. Your CORRECT key points being;

"the vast majority of people have absolutely no interest in how it works, just that it works with a point and a click"

("The vast majority of people" being Windows users).

"linux and the other *nix variants are great for enthusiasts, who like to fiddle and learn how things work."

Therefore my statement "nor do they really want to know" is far more likely with a Windows based pc and a Windows user than it is with a *nix based box." holds true.

Most Windows based computers that come to me have a virus/malware related issue.
I don't subscribe to the BS "Linux, Mac don't get viruses".
I'm not a believer in the Linux dream.
I don't use a Linux GUI, if you want pretty pretty desktop, stick to Windows, it looks far more pretty and plug-n-play actually works.
I only ever do net installs and only install what I need.
So many ISPs I have seen have little to no clue on what security means with their biggest problem areas being DNS and mail regardless of the O/S.
Yes I'd agree Debian is a better distro than anything rpm based.

Best regards
DarrenR

Originally Posted by DarrenR

"the vast majority of people have absolutely no interest in how it works, just that it works with a point and a click"

("The vast majority of people" being Windows users).

they are windows people only because it is point and click and easy to buy stuff for, thats the whole point :P

Originally Posted by incisor

they are windows people only because it is point and click and easy to buy stuff for, thats the whole point :P

Well no, your original (generalised) point was *nix straight out of the box is not secure and *nix users have no clue how to harden a box nor do they want to know.

My point was the same generalisation can be applied to a Win32 box and that "nor do they really want to know" is far more likely with a Windows user.

Best regards
DarrenR

Originally Posted by DarrenR

I don't subscribe to the BS "Linux, Mac don't get viruses".

Best regards
DarrenR

Just out of interest, how many OS X viruses have you actually seen present on a computer in front of you? What about OS X and spyware?

I'm just interested as I haven't found a mac user yet that has had a virus. UOQ use a lot of macs and occasionally they think someone has a virus but it's always a mis-diagnosis.

Originally Posted by DarrenR

Well no, your original (generalised) point was *nix straight out of the box is not secure and *nix users have no clue how to harden a box nor do they want to know.

My point was the same generalisation can be applied to a Win32 box and that "nor do they really want to know" is far more likely with a Windows user.

Best regards
DarrenR

think you better reread what i said, that really isnt what i meant at all... but lifes to short for lost translations...