Thread: 300 TDI Wont Start ??

Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

the best fix is to double check the timing of the 3 main drive pullys and make sure that you havent managed to put the cam on 180 out (been there done that too but not on a tdi) if your absolutely certain that the cam crank and pump pully timing is on the money then the pump has been assembled out of phase.

Sorry its a long story but I think it explains why we are where we are ! all came from looking at the Fly wheel locking pin slot

hmmmmmmmmm this part worries me ! I did have some trouble with the timing belt, I originaly fitted the timeing belt on an engine stand before fitting the engine ! at that stage i did not realise that I needed a different IP so I completely set up the timing belt as the original belt came off ! Bearing in mind i did not have a flywheel fitted at the time (no locking pin).Then when i had the donk fitted and everything almost ready I realised that the IP had to be changed for an Aussie spec unit ! So following Rave instructions I poped the front cover of to lock the IP pully with a tool i made to hold it, after I did that I rolled the engine around untill the fly wheel pin fitted and slide the IP lockig pin it (or what I thought was in) then removed pump.

allarmed when I removed the pump an instead of the pin being locked into the correct hole it was into the casting at about 2 a clock . SO I knew this was incorrect but could'nt work out why !! anyway there was nothing for it but to remove the timing cover again and line up the marks, I removed timing belt thinking that I had totaly somehow stuffed up the belt fitment.I lined up cam mark, new pumps locking pin and the fly wheel mark. just as I was about to slide the belt on I noticed that the Crank key was not at 12 O'Clock Then it all clicked, The fly wheel timing mark was either incorrect or fitted wrong ! and it was the only way I atempted to get TDC as I could not see any of the marks behind timing cover. So in my mind I realised the errors of my ways and though I can just wind the pullys back to correct location before I fit the belt.
Now this is where I thin I have made the boo boo !!....... as the belt was off I wound each puly untill the markes lined up and the pump stayed locked into it position I recieved it in from the Injection mob and the crank was back at 12 O'clock.

I check with a Landrover Mechanic and told me it would be fine not to use the Fly Wheel pin as it was incorrect as long as the belt went back on the same as the old one came off and al the marks and IP pump lined up !

Im almost sure now though my lack on knowledge Ive fitted the cam puly 180Deg out !

Im sorry to stuff you all around ! But thanks for helping me work out why the hell its like it is !

My next question is :

A: I guess I have to remove the timing cover again and take belt off and wind cam pulley 180 deg ??

B : Is it possible I have damaged anything ?

Cheers
Jeremy

Originally Posted by Jezzaol

Sorry its a long story but I think it explains why we are where we are ! all came from looking at the Fly wheel locking pin slot

hmmmmmmmmm this part worries me ! I did have some trouble with the timing belt, I originaly fitted the timeing belt on an engine stand before fitting the engine ! at that stage i did not realise that I needed a different IP so I completely set up the timing belt as the original belt came off ! Bearing in mind i did not have a flywheel fitted at the time (no locking pin).Then when i had the donk fitted and everything almost ready I realised that the IP had to be changed for an Aussie spec unit ! So following Rave instructions I poped the front cover of to lock the IP pully with a tool i made to hold it, after I did that I rolled the engine around untill the fly wheel pin fitted and slide the IP lockig pin it (or what I thought was in) then removed pump.

allarmed when I removed the pump an instead of the pin being locked into the correct hole it was into the casting at about 2 a clock . SO I knew this was incorrect but could'nt work out why !! anyway there was nothing for it but to remove the timing cover again and line up the marks, I removed timing belt thinking that I had totaly somehow stuffed up the belt fitment.I lined up cam mark, new pumps locking pin and the fly wheel mark. just as I was about to slide the belt on I noticed that the Crank key was not at 12 O'Clock Then it all clicked, The fly wheel timing mark was either incorrect or fitted wrong ! and it was the only way I atempted to get TDC as I could not see any of the marks behind timing cover. So in my mind I realised the errors of my ways and though I can just wind the pullys back to correct location before I fit the belt.
Now this is where I thin I have made the boo boo !!....... as the belt was off I wound each puly untill the markes lined up and the pump stayed locked into it position I recieved it in from the Injection mob and the crank was back at 12 O'clock.

I check with a Landrover Mechanic and told me it would be fine not to use the Fly Wheel pin as it was incorrect as long as the belt went back on the same as the old one came off and al the marks and IP pump lined up !

Im almost sure now though my lack on knowledge Ive fitted the cam puly 180Deg out !

Im sorry to stuff you all around ! But thanks for helping me work out why the hell its like it is !

My next question is :

A: I guess I have to remove the timing cover again and take belt off and wind cam pulley 180 deg ??

B : Is it possible I have damaged anything ?

Cheers
Jeremy

Cam timing can 't be out as you would have no/ poor compression.

1: set crank slot in centre of wading plug hole.
2: Check that inlet and exhaust valves are rocking on cyl 4
3: check timing pin fits into IP
4: I still think there is a injection timing issue here. When the engine is at this point, which IP line is the fuel squirting from?

We're waiting....

JC
4:

very broadly..... (and this is to work out the phasing of the pump/injection not to actually get the correct timing on)

in a 4 pot 2 pairs of cylinders rise and fall together. (1+4 2+3)

when a pair is at TDC one will be on the change over from compression stroke to the power (combustion) stroke and one will be on the change over from exhaust to inlet.

the way you work out which cylinder is ment to be firing is this.

turn the engine over so that a pair of cylinders is at TDC.
the cylinder that has both rockers free is the one that should be injecting (both rockers are loose because both valves are closed amd that cylinder is transitioning from compression to combustion) and the other cylinders valves should be changing over so both rockers should be firm and turing the engine in either direction will have one valve close and the other open.

the best way to identify your valves is to look across at the manifolds you will see that there are 3 "paired" parts and 2 singles (the singles will be at either end)


from memory starting at the front it should be

#1 exhaust (valve 1)
#1\ (valve 2)
- inlet
#2/ (valve 3)
#2\ (valve 4)
- exhaust
#3/ (valve 5)
#3\ (valve 6)
- inlet
#4/ (valve 7)
#4 exhaust (valve 8)

once youve identified all the inlet valves what you do is this.

(again glowplugs out)

crack all the injector line to injector unions,
slowly crank the engine over if the pump is timed correctly (or near enough) but out of phase you will notice that as an inlet valve opens one of the injector lines dribbles. IF its phased correctly the injector line that dribbles should be the one thats on the cylinder with both valves closed and the piston approaching TDC...

so.

If using the above valve layout the engine is setup and timed correctly if I put pots 2+3 on TDC and start to turn the engine over (lets just say that post 2 is the one thats now on power and pot 1 is about to start compression) if I turn the engine 1/8th of a turn

the inlet valve rocker on pot 1 will finish closing and the exhaust valve rocker on pot 4 will swing open This tells me that pot 1 is about to start compression by this stage I should have free movement on both the rockers on pot 1, and on pot 4 the inlet rocker should be loose and the exhaust rocker will be firm.

if I keep turning the crank in about 1/8th turn increments I should notice nothing untill I complete the 3rd 1/8th turn of the crank. On starting the 4th 1/8th turn (after which pots 1+4 will be TDC and 2/3 will be bottom dead center) I should notice that the exhaust valve on pot 4 has begun to close and the inlet valve has started to open and at about the same time the injector union for the number 1 injector should start to drip diesel.

the opening inlet valve is your key to working out which pot should be firing.

if :-

the inlet valve on pot 4 is opening then the injector on pot 1 should be injecting
the inlet valve on pot 2 is opening then the injector on pot 3 should be injecting
the inlet valve on pot 1 is opening then the injector on pot 4 should be injecting
the inlet valve on pot 3 is opening then the injector on pot 2 should be injecting

From a quick search on google (the one time I didnt bring my raves with me....) the inlet valve opening time is at 16 degrees BTDC and the injection timing is between 7 and 13 degrees BTDC.

Once youve got the coarse timing (and phasing) correct if you set it up so that it starts to inject as soon as you see the rocker starting to move you will be close enough to get a start, once youve got a start you can then rely on a piezo sensor on the injector line to dial it in on the timing marks OR you can manually tweak the pump round till it not doing the diesel knock thing and the EGTs are at something semi reasonable (say 150 for a warm idle).

hope that helps.

I still think we can be looking at the cam or the pump being 180 degrees out. (assuming the firing order is correct on the pump)

from memory....

there is 1 belt notch (might be 2) of freedom either side of correct timing and timed 180 degrees out on the cam if your anywhere but inside those 2 windows valves meet pistons, youd know that if youd done it.

if the cam is timed correctly or 180 degrees out its simply a case of setting up the timing again but once youve got it all pinned in you turn the cam 180 and keep the injector and crank still or you turn the pump 180 and keep the cam and the crank still.

OK,
I though I did have poor compression ? hence why I only get a kick when I put a familble liquid (WD40) in the cylinders ?

I am 100% sure without a doubt that when the fly wheel slot lines up all the other marks on the front of the engine does not !

I can do the below for a test ! but I do recall questioning myself as I rolled the cam pulley around to line up with mark ! but did it anyway

Comments?

Originally Posted by justinc

Cam timing can 't be out as you would have no/ poor compression.

1: set crank slot in centre of wading plug hole.
2: Check that inlet and exhaust valves are rocking on cyl 4
3: check timing pin fits into IP
4: I still think there is a injection timing issue here.

We're waiting....

JC
4:

Originally Posted by Jezzaol

OK,
I though I did have poor compression ? hence why I only get a kick when I put a familble liquid (WD40) in the cylinders ?

I am 100% sure without a doubt that when the fly wheel slot lines up all the other marks on the front of the engine does not !

I can do the below for a test ! but I do recall questioning myself as I rolled the cam pulley around to line up with mark ! but did it anyway

Comments?

Pull the front timing cover off and post a pic

The camshaft gear is keyed to the boss/ pin on the cam, can't be adjusted. there is a small mark on the edge of the gear that lines up with the point on the cast pillar at about 8oclock next to the cam gear. The IP gear CAN be out on the front of the pump a little, but if the pump is locked at 1 and the belt is fitted it will then be in time with the cam. The crank key should be at 12oclock at this point, that is also when the slot is visible through the wading plug hole.


It'll take you 30 minutes to remove and photograph the relevant bits, I'm off to bed in 45minutes so get cracking

JC

I'll Give it a shot ! Im getting good at this ! LOL

So your saying with the timing belt removed I cant roll the cam belt into the wrong position ?

Be right back with pic !

Originally Posted by justinc

Pull the front timing cover off and post a pic

The camshaft gear is keyed to the boss/ pin on the cam, can't be adjusted. there is a small mark on the edge of the gear that lines up with the point on the cast pillar at about 8oclock next to the cam gear. The IP gear CAN be out on the front of the pump a little, but if the pump is locked at 1 and the belt is fitted it will then be in time with the cam. The crank key should be at 12oclock at this point, that is also when the slot is visible through the wading plug hole.


It'll take you 30 minutes to remove and photograph the relevant bits, I'm off to bed in 45minutes so get cracking

JC

Originally Posted by Jezzaol

I'll Give it a shot ! Im getting good at this ! LOL

So your saying with the timing belt removed I cant roll the cam belt into the wrong position ?

Be right back with pic !

IF the crank was at TDC, then there is only a little way you can move the cam before the valves hit a piston. Since the cam is timed 1:1 with the IP, then it is easy to time these engines as long as you can see the marks/ use the pins.
Air tools Jeremy, Air tools are your friend here.(Neighbours won't like it though
JC

they wont mind, its only just gone 2000 over there.