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So I snagged one of these ECUs today. I was surprised because the part number on it would have led me to believe that the engine WAS LEV/SAI, but based on all of the emissions stickers it is not SAI, and the engine didn't have it, and the vacuum diagram didn't show it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Adams
Feel free to contact me if you still have any interest in getting your hands on it. If not, I'll just keep it for my own potential use.
a 3 year search!:clap2:
so this is off a factory 4.6
without secondary air injection?
wow. big score.:Thump:
Yep. I was standing in a Land Rover garage, and one of the guys needed a piece of the plumbing for the SAI and he joked that the first 03 in the parts lot the he picked was one of the few that didn't have SAI. And I said, "Wait.... you've got a 4.6 without SAI? Can I buy the computer?" :)
I can say I wasn't looking TOO hard... because I've been to this shop a few times and I didn't even think to ask the last couple of times.
Without:
Attachment 101175
With:
Attachment 101176
I've just read this in Rave:
A single ECM is used for the control of the existing 4.0 litre engine and the new 4.6 litre engine introduced with 03 model year vehicles for the NAS market only. The ECM contains the tunes for both engines variants. When the ECM is replaced, TestBook/T4 must be used to select the correct tune to match the engine fitment.
So, would this mean if you got a ECU from a 03 onwards it would be switchable between the 4.0l and 4.6l?
Anybody done this?
Cheers
sort of,,
go back one post.
99% of all the NAS (north american spec) D2's used SAI,, secondary air injection.
Thats why jafir's find was a biggie.
no SAI in that ECM.
AFAIK all the D2 ECM's for the rest of the world only had one tune,,
and a sad hollow sound it is,,:mad:
Sometimes RAVE contradicts itself. I believe this is the way the earlier GEMS computers worked, but not that Bosch computers. Later in the same section of the manual, it says that you have to reflash the eeprom to change tunes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler
"The ECM can be reprogrammed, using TestBook/T4, with new engine tunes up to 16 times to meet changing specifications and legislation. The current engine tune data can be accessed and read using TestBook/T4."
Normally the testbook will flash the computer based on the VIN number. Here is some info from BBSGuy, that seems to indicate that settings cannot be edited in the ECU, and only a complete reflash, but I might be reading more into his words than is really there: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/electronic...ml#post1893489
What about MegaSuirt? 735 UK pounds for a complete Thor kit.
Has anybody done this or thinking about?
Cheers
I wonder if VW Chips would work
They'd be Awesome.
Mine runs fine with the Mark Adams in it
although a little rich down low
might see if the 4.6 O2 sensors are the same as 4.0ltr
This care of Modelsp;)
"Hello
Thank you for your message - it's good to hear from you. Although this is a simple question at first glance, it does deserve a detailed answer. I hope I am not swamping you with information!
Whilst the Motronic system will run a 4.6 engine even with a 4.0 Litre tune, you certainly won’t be getting the best out of it. As your motor has Oxygen sensors in the exhaust, the fuelling runs in closed-loop which gives it the ability to trim the fuelling to suit the engine. Of course it will only be using the preset factory targets for this function. The ignition has knock detection to prevent detonation, which will also trim back any dangerous levels of ignition advance.
A couple of years ago when nobody could do anything with these systems, the stark choice with a capacity upgrade was to drop it in the hole and see what happened. As you can see from the last paragraph, Motronic will have a good shot at making the best of it. Indeed there are hundreds of these vehicles running around with 4.6 engines operating on 4.0 Litre tunes.
The fact that they work has lead to the general opinion that the conversion works, which is evidently true. However I will explain why you can get a very big improvement by reprogramming the ECM to suit the new larger engine.
As a bit of background, there are over 150 versions of the software for the Disco and it is important that you have the correct one. Earlier systems such as GEMS had software that would cope with pretty well any configuration of the vehicle, with just a few software switches. Although there are four types of Motronic ECM, the software is unique to each possible configuration of the vehicle.
There are some solutions for this one, although none of them are ideal. Sending the original ECM puts you off the road for several days at least, even if using a courier such as DHL. As you say, for a daily driver this is a no-go.
A couple of my clients have sourced a similar ECM locally, and used that whilst they sent their own over here. As mentioned above, it does need to be the same version. The chassis number and software version are always printed on the casing at the factory, but the label is made of paper and often peels off. It is theoretically possible to obtain the correct ECM, and load it with software over here and send it out. However you would lose the programming history of the vehicle this way. I am working on a way around this, but haven’t got there yet due to the encryption involved.
In all cases when using the non-original ECM, it is necessary to use specialist test equipment to re-learn the security code for a Discovery. This is an added pain and expense unless you already own such equipment.
Anyway - that is all the negative stuff. There are considerable benefits to be had if you can take the hassle.
The ECU mapping will need revision to accommodate the larger capacity, and here are the reasons why you would get a bad result from a 4.6 engine on a 4.0 map. The engine's fuel and ignition requirements are determined by engine speed and load. Engine load is determined by measuring the true mass of air that the engine is consuming at any particular speed, using the "Hot Film" Mass Air Flow (MAF) meter.
Mass airflow is proportional to the torque that the engine is producing (for this type of engine), and hence it is closely related to the engine capacity. This is also heavily influenced by atmospheric conditions such as barometric pressure, temperature, etc.
Therefore it is vital that the software is programmed with the correct maximum mass air consumption of the engine, known as airflow meter scaling. This is vital for good driveability and fuel economy especially on large capacity engines, and allows correct control of part throttle fuelling. Note that airflow meter scaling determines when the top of the fuel map is reached. When using an engine of larger capacity than the software was designed for, the top of the map will be reached too soon. This leads to over-fuelling at part throttle, and under-fuelling at full throttle.
A re-profiled Fuel Map which provides good fuel economy on part throttle, and allows engine to rev more freely (standard profile reduces fuelling heavily after 4000RPM). This produces quicker, more progressive throttle response and better mid range torque.
Although the ECU can work around large errors in the fuelling where Oxygen sensors are present where the map is significantly incorrect, when it reaches the limits of adjustment it will upset the entire fuelling learning process.
When re-calibrating the Motronic ECM for a larger capacity engine, there are actually over 38 maps that need re-scaling for both engine load and speed. This level of detail is one of the reasons why the Tornado upgrades are not cheap, although I do believe that the quality is unmatched.
The following information refers to either upgrading a 4.0 or 4.6 vehicle in the same capacity, but the gains are much larger when going from a 4.0 to 4.6. If you want the technical details of why this is so then I would be very happy to provide them.
The Bosch engine is mapped in such a way that it produces maximum power when it hits the Rev Limiter, which is set at 5500 RPM. At this point the mixture is rather rich, but the ignition timing is fine for good power production. Therefore the peak power will not improve more than 2-4 BHP with any upgrade, unless the Rev Limiter is moved up to say 6000 RPM. Although I can do this and the power is still increasing when it hits the Rev Limiter, it would be something of a “smoke and mirrors” or Snake Oil improvement. Power increases here are largely academic, since the vehicle will change gear long before this limit is reached.
However the dominant engine characteristic is actually a huge hole in the torque curve, centred around 2500 RPM. This is filled in very well with the upgrade, delivering an extra 10-15 lb/ft of torque and much faster throttle response. Economy improvement is 10-15%.
When driving a standard vehicle it actually pulls away from a standing start quite well initially, but loses interest once it gets to 3000 RPM. Personally I find this trait especially annoying, and it doesn’t even sound like a V8 either! All the action happens on the first or last quarter of the throttle pedal movement, and the bit in the middle doesn’t make a lot of difference. It is also a real nuisance to my clients who tow, since it often means the gearbox will kick down two gears when they only wanted a bit of extra effort (on a gradient for example).
Once I have extracted the software from your ECU, I can clone it in future if you should ever lose or damage your original. However, if it gets lost on the way up then it would be necessary to have a new one installed and programmed using TestBook or RovaCom – expensive hassle you don’t need!
Although I can happily send you the graphs for a 4.6 Range Rover or 4.0 Discovery (since we don’t have the 4.6 Discovery over here), they aren’t very helpful due to the fact that the vehicle is automatic and we have to test it in third gear. This brings the attendant problems of kick-down in the middle of the run (right where the best gains are), and the graphs are a bit of a mess. Whilst vehicles with manual transmission do exist which would give the most meaningful results, I have yet to see one."
Im sure he would like to see a manual. Mine does not drive like it has a hole in the power band at beywee between 2500 and 3000 plus rpm....in fact it goes hard to injector cut off. I will try to post a video. The fuel economy non highway that i have posted elsewhere speaks for itself. I might have just got lucky. I once used a K&N filter in my 4.0. Not long later i went to paper again on seeing filtration tests. My bet is that Marks upgrade is like fitting a K&N...better throttle respose and a crisper feeling.
Cheers
