Please read my earlier post, BobQuote:
Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies
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Please read my earlier post, BobQuote:
Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies
And a pair was purchased years ago by 4x4DE and copied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies
I know this because I purchased them at the same time from ARB WA.
They were not common to any other ARB store.
Back then I used to sell D2 SLS lift kits to ARB...
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by bob10
I'm only describing the parts and packaging.
I have the ARB WA recovery points fitted, with Black Rat 4.7t rated bow shackles. Haven't had any issues on the couple of times I've been recovered.
I have these ARB hooks fitted, bought off a fellow forumite in the west on here a while back.
:D ok, it's just that the points in the photo are the same as other recovery points , supplied by a number of sources, and they seem to be the accepted type for D2's , but according to ARB they have no engineered or rated recovery points for D2's. Nor are any of the others engineered or rated, as far as I know. Where does that leave us , insurance wise, if there is a major problem during recovery? Or , indeed , if someone is hurt? BobQuote:
Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies
Hi Bob
There are so many variables when it comes to legal responsibility. When a manufacturer sells an item for a specific purpose, they retain the responsibility for its safety AS long as it is fitted and used within their specifications or guidelines.
If they don't supply any details, and the details are not readily available at your request (yes you have a responsibility to ask) then they leave themselves wide open.
If you use or fit the item outside the intended use or direction, the responsibility becomes yours. That's why it's important to ask what limitations are on their goods. This way you know what you can safely use the item for.
The issue is proving how the item was used and what caused the damage. As ARB state, the recovery points are just one item in the chain of recovery so to speak. If you use the correctly rated gear for your vehicle, eg snatch strap rated for a disco, not a mack truck, it should give way before the mounts.
This applies to all your recovery gear and it's the only way to prove which item failed, how it failed and where the responsibility should lay.
Any gear, tested and rated or not can be pushed to failure in extreme situations, but as long as you do things properly, then at least your legal arguement is not stuffed before you even start.....and it's better to break a strap rather than rip off a steel recovery point and launch it into someone isn't it....
As I said, there are many variables when it comes to the law, and the above is just a generalisation of the basics, be aware of the limits of your gear, use it properly and don't abuse it, you can't go to far wrong.
In the case of the above recovery points, the vendor/manufacturer has a responsibility to supply an item that is safe for its intended use. If the was no details supplied with the item, contact the vendor to get them. If there are no guidelines, more fool the vendor/manufacturer, and as long as you use them as I described above, if you are unfortunate to have one let go and someone gets hurt, at least your legal arguement shows you used them appropriately and with reasonable expectation of function.....
On the opposite side, anyone can cut out a bit of steel and call it a recovery point. If they tell you exactly that, and that it's not tested and they will not accept any responsibility if it goes bang, and you subsequently fit it, use it and it does go bang, then you will bare the responsibility because you knowingly fitted an item that was dangerous, likely to cause injury, or not otherwise suitable for purpose.
The law can be complicate, IS very expensive, and can cost you everything you own, or even put you on a little holiday, that's why it's so important to only fit gear, or use gear within the manufacturers specs, or legally approved items. Whilst most of us will go through our lives without coming unstuck, some of us will, and that's when you find out about lawyers......
Please don't take any of this as legal advice, it's just my experience only.
I'm not a lawyer, but I've had 22years dealing with them, learnt a few things on the way...:D
The issue with creating something thats legal is when there's no legal guidelines, approval process or regulatory body no matter what you make and say it's for someone will use it outside it's "approved standard" and the system (read first lawyer on the scene) will ream whoever they think they can because it doesn't meet a standard that doesn't exist.
This will come up in court and it will eventually be thrown out as you can't nail someone for doing something outside a standard that doesn't exits but the lawyers are richer, the seller is bankrupt and someone got hurt but is no better off.
Hey Andy,Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW
Apologies mate, first I have known of this.
I'd love to hear about it, and I'll get you sorted.
I've sent you a PM.
Cheers
Matt
[QUOTE=clubagreenie;1844583]The issue with creating something thats legal is when there's no legal guidelines, approval process or regulatory body no matter what you make and say it's for someone will use it outside it's "approved standard" and the system (read first lawyer on the scene) will ream whoever they think they can because it doesn't meet a standard that doesn't exist.
This will come up in court and it will eventually be thrown out as you can't nail someone for doing something outside a standard that doesn't exits but the lawyers are richer, the seller is bankrupt and someone got hurt but is no better off.[/
someone will be responsible.....the designer, the manufacturer, the vendor, the person who fitted it, the person who used (or abused) it, or the owner...or any combination thereof.
only in cases where everything has been done right and a failure still happens to a variable that could not have been foreseen could there be a different outcome....usually.
That is the theory....
The reality is that in court, the truth is irrelevant, it's who tells the best version of it, whose lawyer is better, who the judge is, (jury if it's a jury matter)......there is a saying ....there is your side, their side and then there is the truth.
Look, in the end, you might be right, the court decides on the day that it's too hard and blames no one, but it will take many court appearances, lots of money, your sanity, your health.....even if you win, these things will still be the cost of the experience.....just ask someone who has been thru it.
I personally believe if you make something yourself that has the potential to have a catastrophic failure and cause injury or death, you better know what you are doing and be able to substantiate it in court. Only fit something to you car that is promoted (remember if a manufacturer promotes an item to be able to do a certain job, you have a legal reasonable expectation that it will - as long as it is used within its guidelines),to do a certain job, recovery in this case, and use it appropriately and safely. Most of us here will go through our lives without any issues, maybe the odd "laugh at it now" close calls, but overall, a lot of stories to tell.....but the odds are someone will unfortunately come unstuck, and the law is like gambling, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but I like to have the best odds by hopefully doing things mostly right anyway....:D
But you are absolutely correct in one thing, the lawyer will ALWAYS win.....;)