Thread: How much 2stroke oil to add?

Oh, they are a great ride.

Unless they see a reindeer, then they stop suddenly, you slide forward, hit that pointy bit on the top of their head, and can then audition for the Vienna Boys Choir.


Speaking of reindeer, and stopping, I hear that there is a new one in the fleet this year.

His name is Boris, the Brown Nosed Reindeer. He is just as fast as Rudolf, but cannot stop as well.

For those who are interested in empirical rather than annecdotal evidence...

I just had another search through the literature.
There is LOTS of information on lubricity improvers and additives.

However not a single one on using 2-stroke oil as a lubricity improver. Biodiesel however is effective as a lubricity improver - hence why it can be added to all diesel without labelling.

Some abstracts which may be of interest:

SAE Technical Papers
2008
2008 SAE International Powertrains, Fuels and Lubricants Congress; Shanghai; China; 23 June 2008 through 25 June 2008; Code 90787
Impact of diesel fuel additives on vehicle performance (Conference Paper)

Caprotti, R.a, Takaharu, S.b, Masahiro, D.b

a Infineum UK, Ltd., United Kingdom
b Infineum Japan, Ltd., Japan
View references (9)
Abstract

A variety of additives are used in automotive diesel fuel to meet specification limits and to enhance quality. For example, lubricity additives and cold flow improvers are used to meet specifications whilst diesel detergents further enhance the quality of the fuel. Recently, several premium fuels that use high levels of diesel detergents and, in some cases, cetane improver have been introduced in the market place. The purpose of the work carried out was to assess the potential impact of these additives on vehicle performance. In order to do this, a fuel free of any additive was treated with very high levels of all the diesel fuel additives currently used to meet specification limits and to enhance diesel fuel performance. A common rail vehicle using an advanced common rail system was then driven in a controlled manner for 50.000 km. Emissions and driveability tests took place at 0km to provide baseline data. Further tests were then performed at 15.000km and 50.000km to determine any changes from the baseline data. Moreover, every 5000km the vehicle/engine parameters were assessed via ECU interrogation. Test fuel analyses were carried out every 10.000km, sampling the fuel from the vehicle tank. At the end of the test a full investigation of the fuelling system was undertaken. The results indicated that the use of the diesel fuel additives at high treat rates did not have any impact on the fuel injection equipment (FIE), the vehicle performance or the fuel itself. This would indicate that high levels, and indeed standard treat rates, of the additive technologies tested are harm free in the field. ? 2008 SAE International.

SAE Technical Papers
2012
SAE 2012 World Congress and Exhibition; Detroit, MI; United States; 24 April 2012 through 26 April 2012; Code 92224
Possible mechanism for poor diesel fuel lubricity in the field (Conference Paper)

Cook, S. , Barker, J., Reid, J., Richards, P.

Innospec Limited, Innospec Manufacturing Park, Oil Sites Road, Ellesmere Port, Cheshire CH65 4EY, United Kingdom
View references (31)
Abstract

Traditionally, diesel fuel injection equipment (FIE) has frequently relied on the diesel fuel to lubricate the moving parts. When ultra low sulphur diesel fuel was first introduced into some European markets in the early 1980's it rapidly became apparent that the process of removing the sulphur also removed other components that had bestowed the lubricating properties of the diesel fuel. Diesel fuel pump failures became prevalent. The fuel additive industry responded quickly and diesel fuel lubricity additives were introduced to the market. The fuel, additive and FIE industries expended much time and effort to develop test methods and standards to try and ensure this problem was not repeated. Despite this, there have recently been reports of fuel reaching the end user with lubricating performance below the accepted standards. Recent publications have also suggested that it is not uncommon for sodium hydroxide used in the fuel refining industry to be present in fuel entering the supply chain downstream of the refinery. Due to the chemical nature of some lubricity additives there is clearly the possibility of interaction. This paper briefly reviews the need for diesel fuel lubricity improver additives, previous work on such additives and possible interactions. It then goes on to present new work performed to investigate how the presence of sodium compounds in the fuel may affect the performance of a range of lubricity additives of different chemistries. It shows that the presence of the sodium hydroxide can lead to reactions with and hence the depletion of certain types of lubricity additive. This could inevitably lead to reduced lubricity performance and fuels reaching the customer that do not meet specification. Copyright ? 2012 SAE International.

Note that the first line in the 2nd paper is not quite correct. Most medium-heavy diesels use engine oil to lubricate injector pumps (isuzu 4bd1 for example). However usually only diesel to lubricate injectors and secondary pumps.

9th International Conference on Stability, Handling and Use of Liquid Fuels 2005
Volume 1, 2005, Pages 461-488
9th International Conference on Stability, Handling and Use of Liquid Fuels 2005; Sitges; Spain; 18 September 2005 through 22 September 2005; Code 92047
Potential impact of diesel lubricity additives (DLA) on jet fuel quality (Conference Paper)

Moses, C.A.a, Boval, T.b, Hemighaus, G.c, Wilson III, G.R.a

a Southwest Research Institute, PO Drawer 28510, San Antonio, TX 78228-0510, United States
b Chevron Global Aviation, 1500 Louisiana St., Houston, TX 77002, United States
c Chevron Products Co., 100 Chevron Way, Richmond, CA 94802, United States
View references (1)
Abstract

In January 2005 a lubricity requirement was added to the ASTM D 975 specification for No. 1 and No. 2 diesel fuels in anticipation of the more highly hydro-treated fuels having low lubricity. This requirement will result in the addition of diesel lubricity improvers (DLA) into these fuels. The chemistries of these additives are different from the chemistries of the corrosion inhibitors used to provide lubricity improvement in aviation turbine fuels. Further, the diesel lubricity additives are not approved for use in the aviation turbine fuels. The concern is potential contamination of aviation fuels while being transported in fungible pipeline systems from point of manufacture to point of use. Further is the lack of information concerning the hot fuel system carbon fouling which might occur should the diesel lubricity additives (and their associated ULSD) become co-mingled in the aviation turbine fuels. The current for co-mingling is currently limited to the United States because of its fungible pipeline system. Although fuels are more segregated in other parts of the world, there is the possibility that some non-US distribution systems could be changed depending on the economic benefit and overall fuel specification compatibility. This paper reviews the results of laboratory screening tests with DLAs of three basic chemistries to evaluate their effect on thermal stability, lubricity, water separation, electrical conductivity, and pipeline corrosion. The results show that some of the additive chemistries are more detrimental than others and while some fuels are sensitive, others are not.

I wouldn't be surprised if adding 2-stroke to modern diesels would lead to blocked oxy-cats and DPFs.


EDIT: There are a lot of myths that diesel in AU is poor quality. That is generally not the case unless it has been doctored or contaminated with dirt. Diesel in Australia only comes from a few refineries, and the standard it is required to comply with are equal to the best in the world.

I read up on this subject years ago and actually tried it for a round trip to Birdsville and back, about 4000klm IIRC and didn't notice any difference so discontinued it.

But there was this guy on another forum (diesel specialist) who organised some lubricity tests for diesel additives.
The results are suppose to be legit and include 2 stroke oil.
Also confirms the benefits of Bio Diesel as a lubricity improver.

I think this all came about with the advent of low sulphur diesel.
Assuming that sulphur is the lubricant?

So may be more relevant for CRD technology or even older mechanical pumps but maybe not much use on Unit injection?
Pure speculation as I am certainly no expert or even close.

Link to the thread for anyone interested.
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

Originally Posted by harro

I read up on this subject years ago and actually tried it for a round trip to Birdsville and back, about 4000klm IIRC and didn't notice any difference so discontinued it.

But there was this guy on another forum (diesel specialist) who organised some lubricity tests for diesel additives.
The results are suppose to be legit and include 2 stroke oil.
Also confirms the benefits of Bio Diesel as a lubricity improver.

I think this all came about with the advent of low sulphur diesel.
Assuming that sulphur is the lubricant?

So may be more relevant for CRD technology or even older mechanical pumps but maybe not much use on Unit injection?
Pure speculation as I am certainly no expert or even close.

Link to the thread for anyone interested.
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

So the best option according to his testing was 2% biodiesel.
The Australian diesel standard allows up to 5% bio:
Fuel Quality in Australia - Diesel fuel quality standard


EDIT - I also have a hard time believing some lubricity additives can decrease lubricity. More likely is the accuracy of the test is +/- 70 microns or so. Which means that the 2-st results are not a significant improvement.

Very interesting post. I can't recall where I read an article and it said the leading cause for premature modern engine failure in Europe was biodiesel.
They were not referring to home brews.

Originally Posted by isuzurover

So the best option according to his testing was 2% biodiesel.
The Australian diesel standard allows up to 5% bio:
Fuel Quality in Australia - Diesel fuel quality standard

So maybe the best additive is in the supermarket

Couple of 100mls of canola should do the trick.........

Originally Posted by wayne

Very interesting post. I can't recall where I read an article and it said the leading cause for premature modern engine failure in Europe was biodiesel.
They were not referring to home brews.

Just goes to show you can't believe everything you read.
However you also shouldn't confuse adding a small amount of BioD as a lubricity improver vs running 100% BioD.

Above 10% Bio you can have problems in modern engines with water carryover through the filters - which is not great for injection systems. There have also been plenty of cases of "unwashed" commercial biodiesel being sold (e.g. in Austria), which will dump out all the glycerine in one go if it comes in contact with water.

They tried bio diesel at work, it was crap so they stopped using it. The mechanics were glad to see the arse end of it. Parks Vic and Depi are looking at changing from cruisers to mercs. Apparently they will have to add 2 stroke oil for x amount of k's from new. Must be some sort of run in thing.