Intermittent Loss of Power

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Originally Posted by strangy

Hi Paul, did you have a specific sensor (part#) in mind?
Ive often wondered why the effort to make boost boxes by some rather than a modification to the engine map.
Earlier MSB units are probably too hard/not worth the effort, but thought it shouldnt be too hard for a NNN unit.

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Hi Strangy,

It's in the same series of sensors as the stock Bosch. The main difference is it doesn't have the rubber boot over the temp sensor. It doesn't seem a problem as it was widely used in MAN and similar diesel trucks circa 2000. PN is 0 281 022 244.

The ECU map must have the parameters for MAP sensor adjusted to suit as the response is very different from stock. If it's just dropped in the ECU reads 64kPa at sea level.

The main reason boost boxes have been used is that the information required to be able to rescale sensors wasn't really accessible outside the elite few who had access to LR engineering documents until I reverse engineered the ECU code that handles the sensors in 2013-4.

As it turns out the MSB engine maps have a similar structure to the NNN EU2 maps, so the mod can be done equally well. The main difference is that you need to flash a new chip but otherwise it's not a problem.

I have spent a fair bit of time working out the structure of the engine maps and have written a bit of MATLAB code that I use generate Tuner Pro definitions from .map or .bin files that makes it straightforward to edit MSB and NNN files. The only issue is that they are variant/fuel map specific but that is a limitation of Tuner Pro.

cheers
Paul

Well gang.
Quick update. Just dropped in New MAF and not a massive amount of difference in acceleration but at least my Air Flow is closer to what you guys say it should be.

I've not had a chance to put the boost box. Got some learning to do before I pull that.

Also fuel temp still high. This is at idle after driving my son to tennis. Got some work to do here also

Sent from my LG-D802T using AULRO mobile app

Does this look right at idle? Ambient Pressure seem right to everyone (I know nothing of these things sorry)?

Again thank you so much gang. I'm indebted to you!


Sent from my LG-D802T using AULRO mobile app

Wobba,

Ambient Pressure is spot on. Alice Springs is around 550m above sea level. The equivalent of standard pressure (101kPa at sea level) at that altitude is approx 95kPa. The sensor is in the airbox lid so there is a drop vs ambient caused by the restriction of the intake and air filter.

BOM pressures are corrected to sea level so look higher.

I think the MAF reading confirms that the old MAF was fine - you would have been unlucky to get a dud imo. Look on the bright side, least you have a spare now.

If you can grab an SDCard from somewhere - even a 4gB special from Coles will work it's really simple to record the fuelling. It will really give us a lot more to go on.

It's very simple to do. You click on the disk icon, click in the file name field when the window pops up and enter a name, OK, OK, and message pops up confirming recording is active. To finish you click the disk icon again, and it stops the logging session. All you need to do copy the file off the card and attach the .csv file to a post :)

Try to avoid converting to Excel .xlsx format if at all possible. The .csv format is very flexible and can be opened up in virtually anything including a text editor.
Excel files are the spawn of satan. :twisted:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OffTrack

Hi Strangy,

It's in the same series of sensors as the stock Bosch. The main difference is it doesn't have the rubber boot over the temp sensor. It doesn't seem a problem as it was widely used in MAN and similar diesel trucks circa 2000. PN is 0 281 022 244.

The ECU map must have the parameters for MAP sensor adjusted to suit as the response is very different from stock. If it's just dropped in the ECU reads 64kPa at sea level.

The main reason boost boxes have been used is that the information required to be able to rescale sensors wasn't really accessible outside the elite few who had access to LR engineering documents until I reverse engineered the ECU code that handles the sensors in 2013-4.

As it turns out the MSB engine maps have a similar structure to the NNN EU2 maps, so the mod can be done equally well. The main difference is that you need to flash a new chip but otherwise it's not a problem.

I have spent a fair bit of time working out the structure of the engine maps and have written a bit of MATLAB code that I use generate Tuner Pro definitions from .map or .bin files that makes it straightforward to edit MSB and NNN files. The only issue is that they are variant/fuel map specific but that is a limitation of Tuner Pro.

cheers
Paul

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Hi Paul, is the higher range MAP part number correct? Or should it have been 0 281 002 244?

I couldn't find any info on the other number.

Can the ECU MAP range change be uploaded with Nanocon, or is it via other methods?

Thanks,
Kelvin.

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Originally Posted by kelvo

Hi Paul, is the higher range MAP part number correct? Or should it have been 0 281 002 244?

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IMO that ^^^ should be the correct one... typo error i think

Typo is my middle name :p

002 is correct.

There is also a 3Bar VAG unit that some UK tuners are using - the major drawback is that it requires an adapter harness as it doesnt mate with the stock plug.

I've got some docs half written on what is involved. It does require editing the .map or .bin file with a hex editor, and locating the correct offsets which are slightly different from variant to variant. The other alternative is I can build a donation-ware Tuner Pro definition that allows the mods to be done via a gui.

Paul

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kelvo

Can the ECU MAP range change be uploaded with Nanocon, or is it via other methods?

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Sorry missed this bit...

The mod is done to the fuel map, so it can be uploaded with a Nanocom. On the MSB ECU's it requires an updated chip to be flashed.

It's possible to slightly increase the range of the stock MAP sensor to allow 1.5bar/21.75psi boost vs the standard 1.42bar/20.6psi. That is probably a better option if you are running the stock turbo as the higher boosts are pushing the turbo into quite inefficient operating ranges.

A couple of guys are running a rework of the stock MAF curve I've done and it seems to be working fairly well with no change to the way the map drives. In theory it extends the range of the standard MAF to above 800kgHr. I'll see if I can verify that in practise in the next few days.

cheers
Paul

Sorry if these appear stupid question/s.
If I were to get a remap from Jose (T5inside), would he be able to set the parameters for the alternate 0 281 002 244 MAP and rework the MAF curve, or is this your propriety mod and specific equipment required?
Since you have reworked MAF curves and can alter the parameters for MAP, does this mean you have developed Performance tunes also?
I have had mixed experiences with boost boxes.
With a new tune planned in the future I am more interested in maps that can take advantage of sensor capable of the ranges required rather than attach a boost box to alter the signals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by strangy

Sorry if these appear stupid question/s.
If I were to get a remap from Jose (T5inside), would he be able to set the parameters for the alternate 0 281 002 244 MAP and rework the MAF curve, or is this your propriety mod and specific equipment required?
Since you have reworked MAF curves and can alter the parameters for MAP, does this mean you have developed Performance tunes also?
I have had mixed experiences with boost boxes.
With a new tune planned in the future I am more interested in maps that can take advantage of sensor capable of the ranges required rather than attach a boost box to alter the signals.

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The 0 281 002 244 MAP mod relates to work I published on a private forum in Feb 2014. It relies purely on knowing how the ECU processes the analog signal, and how to calculate the correct parameters. Once you know how to calculate the parameters it makes no difference which MAP you pick. Provided you have voltage/pressure at two points you can set the parameters to suit. Any tuner claiming that they have sole rights to a particular sensor doesn't know what they are doing.

The reason tuners have sold boost boxes for the past 18 years is simply because they didn't have this information. If they did there was no interest in putting into their products. Similarly the inject duration based modification sold by all the major tuners until 3-4 months ago are done this way because they didn't full understand how to work with all the maps and limiters in the ECU code. If it was any other marque and engine these remaps would be classed as bad remaps.

At same the time I published the MAP mod, I also posted information on how the key maps - Torque limiter, Driver Demand and Smoke Limiter - interacted
and identified the axis values. Matt Turri and I worked out that the smoke map was using RPM and Air mass per stroke as the axis values, and map values were inject quantity in mg per stroke.

This allows you to calculate the Air to Fuel Ratio for each cell in the smoke map. The smoke map basically sets an upper limit for the amount of fuel injected at engine load/rpm points. The Driver Demand map sets the amount of fuel requested based on throttle position and rpm. The torque limiter sets the maximum amount of fuel that is injected at a given RPM.

The major advantage of doing this is that it allows the engine to calculate the correct timing for the amount of fuel injected. This tends to lead to reduced EGT's and better performance.

The method that all Td5 tuners have been using is to adjust the duration maps, which means the engine calculates fuelling and timing based on sensor readings that are often modified by boost boxes, and the modified duration map injects more fuel than the ECU has calculated. The industry has got this to a fine art and get good results but is still a fundamentally bad way to do it.

A guy by the name of PsiDoc who had been a member of the private forum has basically taken the work I had done with input from Matt Turri in particular, and started passing it off as his own. This first started in August 2014 when he started hyping the evils of boost boxes on D2BC. In Feb 2015 he posted to Just Defenders that he had handed the information about "his" MAP modification to Pete Bell who had promised to start incorporating into his maps within a week. In that post Psi refers to a bloke named Dan Thomas as his official test pilot.

This year a company called Storm Tuning run by Dan Thomas, with an well known tuner (rumoured to be either Jose of Td5Inside, or Pete Bell of BAS) and an unknown tuner - PsiDoc - doing the maps, has started selling "revolutionary" remaps which from what I've seen are based 100% on the work Matt and I posted to my forum in 2014.

It's quite pitiful that an industry that extracts millions of dollars a year from punters like you and me is relying on the unpaid work of people like matt turri and myself to make any real progress at all.

The only tuner I consider to have behaved honourably in this whole fiasco is Gary @ ALIVE. If you want to buy a decent remap that takes full advantage of the sensors he is your man.

cheers
Paul