Air Con Gas

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Can you use LPG as a drop in gas for a R134 system? Does it work the same as 134 and is it compatible with the compressor oil?
I have history in building portable aircon in a previous life...

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AFAIR the fridgie told me that the oil was compatible with R134A oil, the head pressure on Greenchill -30 is lower than R134A, and the molecule size of the gas is larger which causes less gas loss through seeping through the hoses etc.

He certainly didn't purge the system of all oil and it has been going well for 4 years and still cools excellently. I sometimes feel guilty that I should have the system checked and recharged but hey if it works don't fix it.

With regard to house fridges my brand new LG with 4.5 energy stars has LPG based gas in it. A fridgie posted her eon the last voluminous thread that all fridges in Australia for the last 17 years have LPG based gas, but I don't know any more.

I do know that my 2000 Engel has R134A in it and needs a fan to cool the condenser which the older ones didn't .Of course the fan failed and cost $50 to replace as it is 24 volt .

Re oil, yes, all oils currently used are miscible with HC refrigerants, so PAG's, POE's and mineral oil all work.

Re HC refrigerants in house fridges, Electrolux (Westinghouse, Kelvinator, etc) have been using HC's for about ten years now.
All the controls and electrics/electronics were upgraded to be spark proof, etc. to minimise any risk, and the quantities used are tiny.

Domestic/Commercial air conditioning are all swinging to R32 which has some flammability.
This is causing an issue as they can't be used in Server rooms, switch rooms etc.
It'll be interesting to see what we end up using.

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Originally Posted by rick130

Re oil, yes, all oils currently used are miscible with HC refrigerants, so PAG's, POE's and mineral oil all work.

Re HC refrigerants in house fridges, Electrolux (Westinghouse, Kelvinator, etc) have been using HC's for about ten years now.
All the controls and electrics/electronics were upgraded to be spark proof, etc. to minimise any risk, and the quantities used are tiny.

Domestic/Commercial air conditioning are all swinging to R32 which has some flammability.
This is causing an issue as they can't be used in Server rooms, switch rooms etc.
It'll be interesting to see what we end up using.

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I have spoken to the main AC suppliers about this quite a few times recently,and they have well and truly put this issue in the too hard basket[bigsad]

Mitsubishi Electric were the only ones with some sort of warranty if the unit is not used for 'comfort cooling',but are almost out of R410 units[bigsad]

Daikin have a few models left using R410a,but no warranty from the second it is installed in this application......nothing.

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Originally Posted by Disco_Rob

In the UK you can still mess about with your own aircon (so far as I know) but if you are caught venting the gas into the atmosphere you will be given a big fine!

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Same over here.

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Originally Posted by Disco_Rob

He also said that they are changing to another less harmful gas which is BLOODY EXPENSIVE!!!

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The latest automotive replacement for R134a is R1234YF (Honeywell Solstice YF). Wholesale approx $300/kg. You are correct.

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Originally Posted by Disco_Rob

UK has a limit on how much refrigerant (as a country) it can import in a year.
He says it is so expensive that Mercedes now fit all of their cars with the hardware but won't charge the system unless you pay. It's four figures to fill it and it takes less gas than an equivalent 134a system would.

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Same import restrictions apply here. R134a is being phased down, euro manufacturers cannot now fill euro market cars with r134a as a result. R1234YF is still emerging technology here, but give it 5 yrs and it will be relatively common. R134a import volumes will drop and supply and demand will drive market pricing accordingly until r134a is uneconomical for most applications. Thems the breaks.
I heard some Mercs are coming with CO2 based refrigerant. R744. Very low GWP, but runs at high pressures.

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Originally Posted by ozscott

I had a feeling the very latest automotive refrigerant was flammable like LPG?

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R1234yf is flammable. Well... at least there is a DG marking on the cylinder to indicate that it is. Probably much less so than LPG.

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Originally Posted by scarry

I have spoken to the main AC suppliers about this quite a few times recently,and they have well and truly put this issue in the too hard basket[bigsad]

Mitsubishi Electric were the only ones with some sort of warranty if the unit is not used for 'comfort cooling',but are almost out of R410 units[bigsad]

Daikin have a few models left using R410a,but no warranty from the second it is installed in this application......nothing.

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MHI would give five years for commercial use, not sure if that is still the case.

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Originally Posted by Toxic_Avenger

I heard some Mercs are coming with CO2 based refrigerant. R744. Very low GWP, but runs at high pressures.

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R744 is CO2.
The pressures are nuts!

I'll be getting lots of experience with this starting in the next few weeks on supermarket cascade systems.....

It is well documented that Mercedes wouldn't go with r1234yf,so they had no alternative than to go with something else.

As Rick said,CO2 has wild pressures,we are talking thousands of PSI.

It is pretty standard as the refrigerant for supermarkets in Europe,with R134a used in the other part of the system.

HAs been here for a while, getting more popular.