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Thread: cylinder balances, engine shutdown, TD5.

  1. #1
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    cylinder balances, engine shutdown, TD5.

    Hey folks:
    My brother's TD5 has resurfaced here again with a reoccurrence of a problem it had many moons ago(early Nov).

    What happens: driving along(back then) at about 60-80k/h, engine would shut itself down like fuel starvation.
    Easily repeatable situation, would happen every time in about a 5min time frame.
    Back then, I drove it around a fair bit one night trying to assess whatever I could manage, and found that if keeping at or below 60k/h, I could drive what felt forever(at least 30mins).
    Over 60k/h tho(eg. 65 or more .. estimated as speedo is slightly out) .. it'd shut down.

    I noted back then, that the shut down coincided with way out of balance cylinder balances display on the nanocom.
    What I didn't check, or think of, was to try to determine if one lead to the other, or vice versa?

    Anyhow, back then the fix was nothing. Car sat at my place from Monday night, till Friday morning where I drove it gently towards a mechanic to diagnose .. but on the way I wanted to see one last time .. and to confirm if I tried to sit on 80k/h would it shut down.
    And of course it ran perfectly. Hit a freeway and drive up and down for close on 1 hr at between 80-100, hit a bit more in some hard acceleration runs too .. no problemo .. AND all cylinder balances showed readings between about + or - 5 or so.
    Between Monday night when I parked it having confirmed that it won't allow speesds over 60k/h .. to Friday morning no one had touched the TD5, and it 'fixed itself'.

    Last weekend, it started doing (almost) the exact same thing, tho this time it's upper speed limit is now 40k/h(confirmed about 5 times this arvo).
    The other difference was that via the nanocom on the topic of cylinder balances, I did note that when it's running(say 5mins or so) at any speed, idle or 3.5K RPM .. cylinder balances generally hover between + or - 5, sometimes gong to about a reading of 8 for a brief moment.
    Then, cylinder balance readings suddenly run wild, anything from -27 to 30, and no cylinder is balanced ... and once that starts to display on the nanaocom, you get about 10sec and the engine shuts down.
    No matter what you try. I confirmed that situation 4 or 5 times, and in one instance tried to rev through the impending shut down, but nup! .. it just died less quickly, and one other attempt, I put it in neutral, coasted and tried to see if any difference whilst the engine is at idle.
    Again engine shuts down.
    After engine dies in all the above instances, it's then an ordeal to start it again. The only way to get it started is to vigorously pump the pedal as you crank, max cranikgn time of about 20-30sec, and always a min of about 5 attempts before it finally starts to splutter to life.
    Tried this with and without bleed sequences, makes no difference to the way it starts.

    Other points of note: about 5K klms back we changed the injector loom as preventative measures. No oil in the plug at the head, no oil in the ECU red plug.
    Brother had it happen to him twice back in early Nov, I told him to pull the injector loom to ecu loom plug, jiggle it a bit and spray with (whatever he had at the time .. WD, CO, anything .. just make sure it's clean).
    Worked both times for him.
    From that point on(mid Nov) to last weekend, he had zero issues with this issue.
    Then it started again, but with a low speed tolerance.

    Bro cleaned the ECU plug, this time around, and I reckon it must have had some residual oil in the ECU side of the loom which made its way to the ECU plug. He said there was no oil at the head plug tho.

    ECU was modded(flashed or chipped or whatever they do) by TRS in South Aus(says so on a sticker on the ECU) .. we think it says circa 2008 .. but that is too hard to read as it's worn down.

    Yesterday bro changed the Injector loom again to be sure to be sure .. no change.

    TD5 pull perfectly up until the point where it dies .. so it's not running badly.
    Fuel pump is a genuine VDO, maybe 1K klms old.
    FPR was also changed at the same time.
    Battery is good, hold voltage fine, cranks with much forcefulness
    Haven't checked alternator properly, but does charge between 13.8 and 14.1 according to nanocom readings only(ie. not multimeter tested).

    I'm thinking ECU issue(maybe the flash to whatever fuel map has been not quite perfectly executed)?
    But with oil now in the ECU side of the engine loom, maybe oil contamination is limiting volts to injectors or whatever it is they do to each other there?

    Is there a way to test ECU's.. or anywhere that can test them(other than LR dealers).
    Arthur.

    '99 D1 300Tdi Auto
    '03 D2 Td5 Auto

  2. #2
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    Check the fuel pump relay if you haven’t already done so.

    For the ecu the most common fault is ‘topside switch’ which usually means the capacitors are on their way out. You will need a Nanocom or similar for the diagnosis.

    Paul.
    Paul.

    77 series3 (sold)
    95 300Tdi Ute (sold)
    2003 XTREME Td5

    I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

  3. #3
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    How long ago was the ecu modified? If it was recently I’d put 2 and 2 together there.
    If not it could still be possible that’s causing a dilemma.

    although I once had a situation similar due to a blocked gauze filter behind the Fuel pressure regulator.



    Whilst cranking the car inspect fuel flow out of the return line from the fuel cooler. ( 12 in the diagram).

    She should have good flow although if she doesn’t let much fuel out, I’d pull off you’re FPR and remove and inspect the gauze in the head.



    What it should look like:
    .


    If the fuel return looks alright you could inspect the MAP sensor on the manifold and give it clean.

    If she gives you starting trouble you could try unplugging the MAF and seeing if that makes a difference. Have also had a rare occasion where a TD5 MAF gave grief.

    Best of luck!

    Regards,

    SIVVY130

  4. #4
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    Pull out the fuel bleed valve in the fuel filter head. Its the outer pipe on the rear. If it's black and dirty, the injector washers are leaking. Pull the return valve out and refit the pipe and see if the problem goes. If problem goes you will need to change injector washers and orings. I would change valve also. You can't leave valve out as air bleeds back and makes it difficult to start 1st thing.
    It doesn't leak oil, Its sweating power

  5. #5
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    The symptoms you describe, including the restarting procedures you have to go through are a textbook case of aerated fuel from leaking injector washers...

    Jc
    The Isuzu 110. Solid and as dependable as a rock, coming soon with auto box😊
    The Range Rover L322 4.4.TTDV8 ....probably won't bother with the remap..😈

  6. #6
    discorevy is offline ChatterBox Silver Subscriber
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    Quote Originally Posted by justinc View Post
    The symptoms you describe, including the restarting procedures you have to go through are a textbook case of aerated fuel from leaking injector washers...

    Jc
    Tried to tell op that a few times in November, Justin , by the way Trevor Bennet says hello, I didn't know you worked down this way .

  7. #7
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    Cool, thanks for the those answers.
    Air bleed valve changed back in Nov.
    I still have original one here at my place (I think). I remember it looked totally crappy, compressed and darkened by years of use(compared to the new one). New one made no difference tho. (will check it to see if contaminated tho)

    Can't see the exact date on the ECU as to when the fuel map was done, but it's not recent, and D2 was bought that way.
    Fuel filter is new(again) changed three times in the last 5K klms(brother has a habit of getting cheap crap parts), but last time in Nov with the new fuel pump.


    Injector washers bought(and still got) .. just that when it 'fixed itself' .. and it worked fine for nearly 3 months .. we thought better to leave it well alone otherwise some new problem could possibly arise, in trying to fix a problem that is no longer there

    only problem I see with the injector seals causing the issue is
    1/. the initial intermittency of the problem. My understanding of seals is that they either leak, or don't leak.
    I'd have thought that if injector seals were leaking, that the problem would be there all the time. Why would it suddenly fix itself, and allow engine to run fine for a period of time, then resurface again.

    2/. Back in Nov, after the TD5 fixed itself after a few days rest, brother had two instances of the problem one Saturday. Both times he jiggled the external injector loom plug, sprayed it with WD replaced it and off he went.
    After the second time, he then drive from early Nov through to mid Jan without issue.

    But we will set aside the time to replace the injector seals to eliminate that from the list of possibilities.
    Only reason we haven't done them yet is what tool to use(or manufacture) to remove recalcitrant injectors?
    Any suggestions on relatively cheap tools for that part of the job.

    The other part not checked(didn't realise it was there!) was that gauze filter within the FPR. Again, it was eliminated from the list due to the plug jiggle/WD spray on the connector fix earlier too.

    MAF was tested unplugged, no difference. Back in Nov tho it did log a few faults on a Bearmach that was replaced not too long before. A cheapy Chinese MAF was also bought a while back and used as the replacement. No faults logged, but when it was used to replace the Bearmach it made no difference.
    He's running a genuine MAF now tho .. When I drove it yesterday it logged no fault. Air cleaner clear too.
    Arthur.

    '99 D1 300Tdi Auto
    '03 D2 Td5 Auto

  8. #8
    discorevy is offline ChatterBox Silver Subscriber
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    But we will set aside the time to replace the injector seals to eliminate that from the list of possibilities (Quote)

    Praise the lord ( and I'm not even religious:-)
    I'm concerned you're going to wear your fingers down on the keyboard with the landy version of war and peace. The washers can sometimes seal themselves when a loose piece of carbon blocks the passage of escaping gasses temporarily

  9. #9
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    Recheck your air bleed because if the injectors are leaking it puts carbon back through the fuel system and blocks the gauze in the air bleed
    It doesn't leak oil, Its sweating power

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by discorevy View Post
    ....

    Praise the lord ( and I'm not even religious:-)
    I'm concerned you're going to wear your fingers down on the keyboard with the landy version of war and peace.....
    LOL! fingers have been battle hardened from years of excessive keyboard pounding!
    Keyboard is worn 'to the bone' tho .. literally no lettering remains

    Yeah, we had plans to do injector seals wayy back then, when it was mentioned as a possible cause.. but as said, problem sorted itself and then the plug jiggle sorted a couple of incindences.

    Have done a quick search and found that a long allen key of appropriate size could act as a lever to remove injectors.
    Alternative is I can make up something using various bits of steel I have lying about.
    I'm ultra cautious when doing stuff like that, where more harm could be done if done incorrectly.

    One other question: if injector seals are dud, does the fuel always flow into the oil, or is that a possible symptom.
    In all this time, oil level has been checked to be fine in every diagnosis.
    Arthur.

    '99 D1 300Tdi Auto
    '03 D2 Td5 Auto

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