D2 front drive shaft problem?

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

I think it is probably not the fact that it is a double cardan joint, but the fact that this joint is the one with most angle to deal with - the pinion shaft points pretty much towards the transfer case, so the joint there has little angle to deal with. Most work is done by the joint at the transfer case even though it is shared between two joints. It is likely that any wear on the centering mechanism of the DC joint will allow additional rapid oscillation of the joints themselves, but again, this wear is a direct result of the angle the joint is working through.

And this consideration also means that the biggest factor in reduced life would be a suspension lift.

John

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I'm not sure that I agree with this, as it is not a situation that is duplicated at the rear, where the single uni deals with the entire lift, as opposed to the DC which divides the angle between each uni. The other interesting thing is that the rear shaft sees significantly great forces through it when compared to the front, and I am assuming that impact forces are similar due to the use of lockers.

The thing that makes me tend to think that driving conditions and style is a greater factor than lift though, is that since reducing the number of TT's, the shafts have been lasting significantly longer. But that said, I do agree that the lift increases the wear in the uni joints.

I had the chirping noises on load within a week of Teflon being stuck in a dam. I went for a genuine replacement from ATV $650 :( Since then I've noticed vibrations between 2400-2600 rpm which is being investigated now.

2" lift, 265/70-16 tyres, reasonable amount of offroading in the last 12 months since I've had it. 116,000 kLM

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Originally Posted by Slunnie

I'm not sure that I agree with this, as it is not a situation that is duplicated at the rear, where the single uni deals with the entire lift, as opposed to the DC which divides the angle between each uni. The other interesting thing is that the rear shaft sees significantly great forces through it when compared to the front, and I am assuming that impact forces are similar due to the use of lockers.

The thing that makes me tend to think that driving conditions and style is a greater factor than lift though, is that since reducing the number of TT's, the shafts have been lasting significantly longer. But that said, I do agree that the lift increases the wear in the uni joints.

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I can't visualise the relative lengths - but isn't the rear shaft on a Disco quite a bit longer than the front one? Which means the angle is significantly less, although you are right, the double cardan joint means it is shared between the two joints, although any wear on the centering mechanism allows the possibility of destructive vibration that is not there for a single joint. Also, is the crankshaft and hence transfer case shafts horizontal? or inclined back slightly, which would also increase the angel on the front shaft compared to the back.

Lifting is a major factor in U-joint wear - the larger the angle the more rapidly they wear in any application. I'm not too sure how much of a factor impact forces are, although as soon as there is wear and hence play, impact forces will have a major part to play in failure. Also, would lockers make the life of a prop shaft U-joint harder? To the extent the locker prevents loss of traction and sudden gripping, I would have thought it would help (of course the effect on the half axles is different). I also would have thought that dust was fairly well excluded from modern U-joints, although the same can perhaps not be said for water and mud.

John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

I can't visualise the relative lengths - but isn't the rear shaft on a Disco quite a bit longer than the front one? Which means the angle is significantly less, although you are right, the double cardan joint means it is shared between the two joints, although any wear on the centering mechanism allows the possibility of destructive vibration that is not there for a single joint. Also, is the crankshaft and hence transfer case shafts horizontal? or inclined back slightly, which would also increase the angel on the front shaft compared to the back.

Lifting is a major factor in U-joint wear - the larger the angle the more rapidly they wear in any application. I'm not too sure how much of a factor impact forces are, although as soon as there is wear and hence play, impact forces will have a major part to play in failure. Also, would lockers make the life of a prop shaft U-joint harder? To the extent the locker prevents loss of traction and sudden gripping, I would have thought it would help (of course the effect on the half axles is different). I also would have thought that dust was fairly well excluded from modern U-joints, although the same can perhaps not be said for water and mud.

John

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Both shafts run a decent angle through them at the transfer. The length are different, but the rear isn't a lot longer and the angle through the rear uni will still be more than that through the each uni in the front DC. Any vibration is shared through the driveline through the centre diff. I tend to think that the locker make life easier on the propshafts. Oh well, where water and mud will go, dust will be there before hand. :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...09/11/1156.jpg

Shaft died at 110,000km - 2002 D2 TD5

Pretty standard suspension set up
Lots of off road, some harsh first 90,000k, not much the last 20k

Gibbs Truck repair at Burleigh, did a great job, completely refurbed/recreated for $265. ;)

Details here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/...tml#post786429

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Originally Posted by Slunnie

Both shafts run a decent angle through them at the transfer. The length are different, but the rear isn't a lot longer and the angle through the rear uni will still be more than that through the each uni in the front DC. Any vibration is shared through the driveline through the centre diff. I tend to think that the locker make life easier on the propshafts. Oh well, where water and mud will go, dust will be there before hand. :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...09/11/1156.jpg

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I still reckon it's the way you drive:p

This one for Pierre and Slunnie,,

did the 1310's make a big price change?
are they a common part?




and this for the engineers

will going to a bigger uni make a practical difference?

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Originally Posted by Redback

I still reckon it's the way you drive:p

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I would say that it is the due to the conditions that we are forced to enjoy driving and so look to pass on the costs involved. :wasntme: :lol2:



But you're probably right. :blush:

Just adding my experience (Disco 2003 Td5)
Proactive advice from MR Redcliffe on 90000K service.
Replace front uni joint at TC end of front drive shaft as it is a sealed unit and cannot be greased, seizes up and buggers the box and everything related.
U bet, done with a heavy duty, greasable defender UV joint, $58 part, $60 labour, well done MR.
Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pedro_The_Swift

This one for Pierre and Slunnie,,

did the 1310's make a big price change?
are they a common part?




and this for the engineers

will going to a bigger uni make a practical difference?

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Sorry, I've only just seen this now.

The shafts were made by Tom Woods in the US and sent over to Australia - turn around from the phone call to landing at my work was less than a week.

The cost for 2 DC shafts I think ended up being about $1350AU or similar landed which is a little bit more than 1 only 1310 spicer shaft made here, or about the same cost to buy per unit for a factory replacement or greasable but otherwise OE spec equivilent shaft. The Tom Woods shafts are $360US-$390US ea + shipping.
Landrover Application

They are good value, and I'm really surprised that more people are not doing it. Actually, I had Tom make my shafts for the V8 SeriesII ute also using 1310 unis.

The 1310 unis are a common part, and Tom has his own unis which he guarantees (only the uni) He is also a big name in competition vehicles such as rock crawling and many of these trucks also run his shafts.

Will it make a difference.... I guess time will tell, though I'm expecting that it will as they have a higher torque capacity which is what I believe contrubutes to my failures. The smallest tyre I run is a 285/75-16 and bigger Simex in the bush, lockers, chip + intercooler etc and it gets used a bit for playing, touring and DDing. I've got a bit of lift too and this also contributes to uni wear, but hopefully a stronger uni running at a lower % of its peak and running torques will help to offset the wear from the increased angle.

Does it make a practical difference??? I hope so.... there is only so bug you can go due to space constraints with the gearbox. One of the problems with going to a bigger uni, is that if there are any problems in the driveline that are causing vibrations already, then the heavier weight of the larger uni will increase this. Also, the Tom Woods shafts use an adaptor onto the transfer output flange to mate to the 1310 flange. This will increase the angle through the DC slightly I guess, though when I had it tested for runout it had none, so I assume they are CNC machined - and do look it.



On a side note, this is a very interesting bit of reading on the unis available, with comment on the early failures of sealed for life unis joints
U-Joint Differences


Out of interest, here are some pics of the Tom Woods shafts:

Adaptor from LR output flange to 1310 uni flange.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...08/08/1088.jpg

Front and rear 1310 DC shafts to suit Disco2
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...08/08/1089.jpg

Available angle with 1310 DC joint.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...08/08/1090.jpg

Lame pic of centering ball.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...09/09/1271.jpg

When I said that I need it to be 100% reliable for remote touring, Tom threw in for free an additional 1310 DC yolk for me to pack in case of an emergency! What a fella! The bearing has a white plastic cap in it to protect it and keep it together.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...09/09/1270.jpg