Another Malaysian plane down ...

**Pickles2** · 20th July 2014, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by 1999td5

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme

Very sorry to hear that. Words are not enough. I'm sure that you have lots of happy memories.
I will be in Church this morning so we will remember you.
Pickles.

**ramblingboy42** · 20th July 2014, 07:14 AM

We don't need Putin to tell the world what happened regarding this tragic event.

The world only needs to consult Aulro.

While the rest of the world is waiting for the truth to come out , a number of Aulro members have already released all the evidence and named those responsible.

Well done gentlemen...you could become journalists for the media.....whom many of you readily condemn for their stories.

**wrinklearthur** · 20th July 2014, 08:53 AM

I am very uneasy about pointing the finger at anyone, let us wait until there is solid evidence presented before making any more accusations, as this downing of MH-17, could be a double cross setup to fix blame on another side.

The spiriting away of the black box recorders from the crash site must be considered, as the contained information immediately recorded prior to the missile strike would be crucial to the investigation outcome.

It seems from the media reports that I have read, that the cult of the necktie party is still alive and kicking

A good start to helping the families, would be allowing an immediate supply of freezer containers to the crash site to store the remains until they can be properly ( DNA ) identified.

**Pickles2** · 20th July 2014, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by ramblingboy42

We don't need Putin to tell the world what happened regarding this tragic event.

The world only needs to consult Aulro.

While the rest of the world is waiting for the truth to come out , a number of Aulro members have already released all the evidence and named those responsible.

Well done gentlemen...you could become journalists for the media.....whom many of you readily condemn for their stories.

We are all allowed to give our opinion, as long as that is all that it is,...OUR OPINION, and as long as we respect OTHER PEOPLES' opinions.
My opinion is that the disaster was the result of the direct action (initially admitted), by the Russian backed "Separatists".
That is my current opinion, based upon what I know & have heard,...and if I am wrong, then I will be the first to say so.
What is yours?
Pickles.

**p38arover** · 20th July 2014, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by 1999td5

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme

Sincere condolences, Graeme. I hope that their bodies can be repatriated to Australia to help with closure.

Ron

**CraigE** · 20th July 2014, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by ramblingboy42

We don't need Putin to tell the world what happened regarding this tragic event.

The world only needs to consult Aulro.

While the rest of the world is waiting for the truth to come out , a number of Aulro members have already released all the evidence and named those responsible.

Well done gentlemen...you could become journalists for the media.....whom many of you readily condemn for their stories.

We are all entitled to our opinion on evidence so far presented and so far that evidence is fairly clear. Certain countries will already know for certain who, where, what and when, that is indisputable. It is a matter of confirming if it was Russian/Ukrainian separatists, Russian Military, Ukrainian Militia or Ukrainian Military. If it is a conspiracy it is a damn good one and certainly unlikely.
For the families of those on the flight it wont make much difference who pulled the trigger unless specifically aligned with one side, which is unlikely, all they will really understand is they have lost loved ones for no valid reason.
The main thing to remember while the Ukraine has been unstable for some time air travel was safe until Russia decided it wants control of the oil and gas reserves. As with most recent conflicts again it is all about commodities.
Just such a senseless waste of life.
We obviously have learnt very little over the last several hundred years and while war monger like Putin, Obama and their cronies exist nothing will change.
While media do get things wrong, most of us rely on this type of reporting to get information. What I have issues with is not media getting and relaying incorrect reports, but sensationalist journalism.
So whats your opinion, maybe Martians? I see it is OK for you to have your opinion on a carbon tax and a flawed one, but no one else is entitled to an opinion on subjects. Please remember it is just opinion at this stage and you along with everyone else is entitled to one, right, wrong or indifferent and all of our rights to express these opinions should be respected whether you agree or not or even have proof to the contrary. The truth is a very subjective thing and your truth amy not be others.

**Offender90** · 20th July 2014, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by 1999td5

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme

Words seem inadequate to express the sorrow I feel for your loss Graeme. Please accept my sincerest condolences.

Bojan

**Ausfree** · 20th July 2014, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by 1999td5

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme

I have avoided posting on this Thread because of all the innuendo and supposition and finger pointing by people in authority and those who are just guessing.

However, it hits home when a fellow AULRIAN expresses their loss on that flight. Sincere sympathies Graeme to you and your loved ones.

**Offender90** · 20th July 2014, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by CraigE

We are all entitled to our opinion on evidence so far presented and so far that evidence is fairly clear. Certain countries will already know for certain who, where, what and when, that is indisputable. It is a matter of confirming if it was Russian/Ukrainian separatists, Russian Military, Ukrainian Militia or Ukrainian Military. If it is a conspiracy it is a damn good one and certainly unlikely.
For the families of those on the flight it wont make much difference who pulled the trigger unless specifically aligned with one side, which is unlikely, all they will really understand is they have lost loved ones for no valid reason.
The main thing to remember while the Ukraine has been unstable for some time air travel was safe until Russia decided it wants control of the oil and gas reserves. As with most recent conflicts again it is all about commodities.
Just such a senseless waste of life.
We obviously have learnt very little over the last several hundred years and while war monger like Putin, Obama and their cronies exist nothing will change.
While media do get things wrong, most of us rely on this type of reporting to get information. What I have issues with is not media getting and relaying incorrect reports, but sensationalist journalism.
So whats your opinion, maybe Martians? I see it is OK for you to have your opinion on a carbon tax and a flawed one, but no one else is entitled to an opinion on subjects. Please remember it is just opinion at this stage and you along with everyone else is entitled to one, right, wrong or indifferent and all of our rights to express these opinions should be respected whether you agree or not or even have proof to the contrary. The truth is a very subjective thing and your truth amy not be others.

Agree we are all entitled to an opinion, and it often helps hear the opinions of others in formulating our own. We do this by watching, listening to and reading the news all the time. Problem in my opinion is that the media don't present news in an objective fashion, but frame it in such a way so that the majority of us can only reach one pre-determined conclusion.

You may have heard of a book called "Manufacturing Consent: The political economy of the mass media" by Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky. It describes in great detail how media companies shape public opinion to "manufacture" consent for some political outcome which would otherwise be unpopular (such as for example going to war or passing unpopular taxes etc). Very detailed (& somewhat dry) but very eye opening - I'd recommend it to anyone with an interest in the subject. There are also good (and brief!) summaries on Wikipedia and other similar websites.

Getting back to another aspect of your post, I thought I'd ask what you mean by Russia wanting control of oil and gas reserves. The reason I ask is that I'm reasonably sure it's the other way around. I've written a number of posts on here regarding the energy geopolitics in the region, and the challenge to Russian dominance of gas supply to Europe by US interests over the last 20 years.

I find it extremely saddening to see ordinary people suffer for the ambitions of others, and, perhaps naively, hope this incident will not be used as a catalist for even more suffering.

**85 county** · 22nd July 2014, 08:28 PM

from the 9 news website

The downing of the MH17 flight over rebel territory in Ukraine has put Moscow's support of the separatists under more scrutiny than ever amid allegations the plane was blasted out of the sky with a Russian-supplied missile system.
The US, whose relations with Moscow have dropped to a post-Cold War low over the Ukraine crisis, has led the charge.
"It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia in the hands of separatists," Secretary of State John Kerry said on Sunday.
But Moscow has denied the allegations, with a senior member of Russia's military general staff, Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartopolov, dismissing images that allegedly show Buk missile systems being transferred from Russia into Ukraine as fake.
"I want to stress that Russia did not give the rebels Buk missile systems or any other kinds of weapons or military hardware," he told reporters on Monday at a briefing, armed with slides, charts and images.
Observers say that separatists fighting Ukrainian troops in the east of the ex-Soviet republic would not be able to do so without support from Moscow.
"Without Russia, the rebels wouldn't have tanks or heavy artillery. The decisions (to supply rebels with weapons) are made at the governmental level," said Alexander Konovalov, president of the Institute of Strategic Assessments.
"This is being done under pressure from political groups that are even more anti-Western than (Russian President Vladimir) Putin is," he added.
The Malaysian plane crash, which killed 298 people flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur on Thursday, has increased perceptions of Russia's involvement with the rebels, said Maria Lipman, a political analyst with the Carnegie Moscow Centre.
"Russia has become a participant in the conflict in the eyes of the world, one who can control the rebels and with whom lies responsibility for this tragedy," Lipman said.
The Kremlin has always kept a certain level of official distance from the separatists - Putin has never met with the leaders and did not recognise the independence of the self-proclaimed "Donetsk People's Republic" and "Lugansk People's Republic".
Russia even urged the separatists not to hold a referendum on secession from Ukraine - a call they ignored, creating what observers say was an impression of disobeying Moscow's orders.
The Kremlin also snubbed the rebel leaders' calls to absorb Ukraine's separatist eastern regions into Russia and to send in peacekeeping troops when the armed conflict with Kiev intensified.
"It was admitted that Russia is involved in the conflict, but the extent of the involvement was concealed," said Lipman.
"Russia did not hide that consultations were held with rebel leaders, some of whom are also Russian citizens, and are partly financed by Russian businessmen."
Russian newspapers and television channels close to the Kremlin have sided with the pro-Russian rebels since the beginning of their uprising - something they would not have done without Moscow's blessing.
When one of the separatist leaders, Denis Pushilin, claimed in June that he was received by Putin's powerful advisers, Vladislav Surkov and Sergei Glazyev, this was widely reported in the Russian media although not confirmed by the Kremlin.
Russian media has regularly reported on links between businessmen close to the Kremlin and rebel leaders such as the self-appointed prime minister of the Donetsk Republic, Alexander Borodai, and his defence minister Igor Strelkov - both Russian citizens.
Unconfirmed media reports suggested that the rebel leaders are backed by a so-called "party of war" within the Russian leadership - allegedly led by the Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu.
But despite the increased scrutiny, Putin has very limited room for manoeuvre between domestic political pressure and criticism from the United States and Europe, said Lipman.
"He can't give in to the West. Public opinion and apparently political elites expect something else from him - an anti-Western stance and support for pro-Russian rebels," she said.

end

This is the best bit of reporting I have read so far. But it needs context.

in Australia we have a transparent government. At the moment a coalition of different fractions have joined together to form a working relationship to run the country.
Russia is no different with the exception of the transparency. There are and always have been different fractions within Russian politics with different goals. From a return to Stalinist communism to total free market policies. Including every shade in between.

However, although its not transparent Russian politics are predictable.
I have written a number of times that Putin may not be in control of the situation and that other fractions within Russia maybe involved. To me that’s a given.
In the early days of putins first prime ministerShip. One of the things he did was to breakup some rather large private business organizations. We in the west condemned such a move. But I was in Russia at that time and although it grates me I had to agree. a similar sanerio would be if Palmer was to raise his own police force// militia. And was to try and fund an ani Muslim coupe in Indonesia. Some thing we would never see happen in Australian politics ( touch wood) but is basically how a large part of the rest of the world works.

If you do not know your history you do not know squat!!!

The Cuban crisis. The well known story is the soviets put nukes in Cuba bla bla bla.
What is less known in that the USA put nukes ijn Turkey. Thus prompting the soviets to put nukes in Cuba. The cooling down deal was the soviets pull the nukes out. AND that the US would pull nukes out of turkey.

but how did things get so bad so fast. well the key is in the TWO messages sent to JFK, one was what is called the Hard message. the other is called the soft. The hard was written along the lines of all Yanks will die. The soft was the famous, we have tied the knot of war etc etc.

There I have just given two layers of history.
1 USA kicked the soviets out of Cuba.
2 the yanks and soviets both agreed and backed down together.

But there is a third

the whole deal was a set up by Russian influences within the soviet government to bring down Nikita. JFK may have been shot, but nikita's perceived weakness towards the west cost him his job, though he did keep his life.

So how is that applicable to the Ukraine. Well I believe that Putin is between a rock and a hard place. Having got him self reelected ( so you could say) and changed the constitution so he can hang around for 6 years and possible 6 more. There must be some others who crave power ( and or the money that comes with it). Putin’s popularity seems to enforce that the light at the end of the tunnel or end of Putin reign is very far way indeed. So why wait
Cook up a situation where Putin has a choice between total war or backing down. He will of Corse back down, then he will be proclaimed weak and lose his job.

In Light of this Obama is an idiot. Condemning Putin is wreaking him at home, they should be bolstering him up so he can sort out his own nest and then sort out the Ukraine. I say this because I prefer Putin to the Orlarches

Thread: Another Malaysian plane down ...

Thread Tools

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions