Reports of a large air tanker crash in NSW

Garry,

You may have hit the nail on the head. Somatogravic Illusion. All passengers experience it - particularly on takeoff or go-around. How many times have you heard "we were going straight up", when in fact the pitch attitude was only 10-20 degrees nose up?

Somatogravic Illusion.

For a pilot, it can be potentially overpowering. 2 cadets from the college I was working at took off from Ceduna on a pitch black night, with no visible horizon. They were flying a TB-20, which has a reasonable amount of power. They got airborne and crashed within a minute of doing so, within a mile of the end of the runway. Investigations revealed the aircraft was serviceable, and concluded that the main factor was most likely Somatogravic Illusion.

I have experienced it once in my career - taking of in an empty J-32. I glued my eyeballs to the ADI and had to exclude the physiological inputs from my middle ears. What a wakeup call.

These guys were highly experienced ex-military, so would be well aware (and probably experienced this to some degree during their military careers).

Some relevant facts about C 130 aircraft:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-bushfires-hercules-factbox/factbox-c-130-hercules-aircraft-used-as-water-bombers-to-fight-fires-around-the-world-idUSKBN1ZM0KD

Factbox:C-130 Hercules aircraft used as water bombers to fight fires around the world


- Originallydesigned as a military troop and cargo transport aircraft, the four-engineturboprop can be modified to act as a “water bomber” to douse wildfires.
- The aircraft typically carriesa crew of two to six when equipped to fight fires.
- It can carry 15,000 liters(3,960 gallons) of water or fire retardant, which can be released in one largedrop within seconds or several smaller drops.
- The aircraft can be refilled in12 minutes and has a cruise speed of more than 500km/h (311mph).
- It is able to take off and landon short, unsurfaced runways.

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Originally Posted by Hugh Jars

These guys were highly experienced ex-military, so would be well aware (and probably experienced this to some degree during their military careers).

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Yes they were very experienced but not immune - I don't know what the post retardant drop check lists are but I assume there are a few things to do straight after the drop other than just a climbout and the crucial point is not when flying VFR or IFR but that point of change when the eyes have to go from outside to the instruments and particularly dangerous if still looking outside and distracted by something that is happening inside and you respond what your inner ear is telling you.

While we can guess at what happened, I am sure the ATSB already has a good idea and we will just have to wait and see.

Very very sad though.

Garry

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Not sure where you got the info that there was no emergency dump. Do you have a link to a source?

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Yes will locate it later on OF, I've just come inside from being out most of the day..

Fwiw, it was a discussion on the Caulson Website. Will find the link later if you don't find it before me.



Edit. Still haven't found the link but I will keep trying even if it kills me. [bigsad] No Flowers by Request please if it comes to that.[happycry]

It was a Chat between blokes with names like Chuck, Al, Squirrel, [smilebigeye] etc who seemed very familiar with C130 Tanker operations & the impression I was left with was some other brands of A/C had them fitted & some didn't & this was generally thought to be a negative as the C130 didn't.

It may have been deleted by now for whatever reason but Search can't find it nor History on my computer & I have exhausted nearly all the links that sound familiar.

Maybe it was a link following a link following a link etc, but it deffo started with the Coulson Website.?

Alternatively, do you have a link that confirms that it does have such a system, OF?



COULSON AVIATION




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Yes will locate it later on OF, I've just come inside from being out most of the day..

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Well I will be very surprised if it doesn't have an emergency dump. I posted a bit earlier a ink, but it is not from any aviation site. I did watch a video where one of the Coulson boys, along with the helicopter manager discussed the aircraft, but they did not mention how the dump works.

For sure with helicopters they have an emergency release, two in fact. Usually just referred to as the "pickle switch".

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Originally Posted by Old Farang

Well I will be very surprised if it doesn't have an emergency dump. I posted a bit earlier a ink, but it is not from any aviation site. I did watch a video where one of the Coulson boys, along with the helicopter manager discussed the aircraft, but they did not mention how the dump works.

For sure with helicopters they have an emergency release, two in fact. Usually just referred to as the "pickle switch".

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I guess it is easier to accomplish an Emergency Dump with a Rotary Wing ie. Dropping away the bag with a small explosive bolt charge, but I suspect it is the mechanics of opening shutters &/or compressed air actions in a C130 air frame that may be the reason that takes the seconds, & we are only talking seconds of delay here, between an Emergency & an "Operational" Drop.


As I said previously this discussion is probably academic now anyway. :rolleyes:

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I guess it is easier to accomplish an Emergency Dump with a Rotary Wing ie. Dropping away the bag with a small explosive charge, but I suspect it is the mechanics of opening shutters &/or compressed air actions in a C130 air frame that may be the reason that takes the seconds, & we are only talking seconds of delay here, between an Emergency & an "Operational" Drop.

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The helicopters that I both owned and flew were fitted with both electric and back up mechanical cargo hook releases. I never had anything to do with them, but the big Air Crane type do have an explosive emergency release when used for logging. The release doors, as far as I am aware, can be exactly controlled for a predetermined release rate, just like top dressing aircraft. The Air Crane uses a separate tank. Not sure if it is held up with a cargo hook or some other means, but I guarantee it is jettisonable.

Seconds is all that is needed, as the immediate reaction of any aircraft is to climb as the load dumps, controlled or emergency.

I'm sure the Herc setup has an emergency dump, that load wasn't on full dump and it didn't look to be a normal Herc drop, it appeared less. The drops I've seen this year were usually about 11,000 litres, that drop didn't look like that much.
Watching that video the aircraft flew level after the drop then appeared to pitch up and start a turn to the left, then straightened up and flew into the smoke then descended level several hundred feet into the ground.
You would have thought the crew would be well aware of Somatogravic Illusion and would be covered in their extensive training and re-currency workup preseason.
This was a few years ago, pilot was very experienced, it was a very dark night.
Investigation: 198201382 - Beech 58, VH-AWT, Armidale NSW, 27 March 1982

FGS.

A link if you can? [smilebigeye] My comment was based on the Chat discussion I read but for some reason now cannot access but wish I could.

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Watching that video the aircraft flew level after the drop then appeared to pitch up and start a turn to the left, then straightened up and flew into the smoke then descended level several hundred feet into the ground.

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For some reason I'm not getting to open some Videos only some stills from it but they are not much help in this situation. The last shot was of the AC dropping it's load before it got to the fire, then nothing so I cannot see the above scenario but I take your word for it.

Would actually flying into the smoke cause this because in my mind the crew would have been wearing Oxygen, as they would normally fly above the smoke, but I am not aware what other safeguards there would normally be, ie. total pressurisation etc of the Flight Deck.
Maybe they were but there was a malfunction with the Oxy & once into the smoke couldn't
easily find their way out again, already being smoke affected, & being so close to the terrain it was all over red rover.. All Hypothetical of course, I know. but as 101RS said ^^

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While we can guess at what happened, I am sure the ATSB already has a good idea and we will just have to wait and see.

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Just wish it had never happened though.[bigsad]

Have just read that PDF report, FGS.


A striking similarity for me is similar to the effect you get when speeding down a Highway say at 110k.
"OOPS there is my turnoff", but I don't take it while still doing 110k The landscape going past the window now doesn't appear to be passing that fast after doing @ 110 for a couple of hours so I must have lost speed, right?.

But my speedo is indicating say 100k & I have to believe my speedo as I normally would do under different circumstances. The corner comes up & I know I have to get my speed well down to take the corner or it could be game over. I know & accept this phenomenon from years of driving in the country, so I safely brake to drop the speed off to say 30 kph even if it means going on & coming back again. So I do, & eventually take the corner. & Bob is my mum's Bro. but if I had relied solely on my eyesight & vision of passing trees the story would have been different because it would not have indicated the true situation..

Also in the dark, when the passing undergrowth is not visible I have to believe my instruments. Hardly the same situation as a plane crash I realise, but the principal is the same. Some would say it is the Inner Ear but me, I think it is the feeling in your nads [smilebigeye] so whatever & wherever it feels right you go for it.


Thanks for listening, you have been a great audience.[biggrin]