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Thread: How old is too old

  1. #1
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    How old is too old

    How old is too old?

    How old is too old? | Flight Safety Australia

    Some interesting points being presented. I cannot remember the last time that I had anything to do with an instructor as I am no longer active.
    But what I do recall is that there are just as many ******* amongst them as there may be good ones! (young or old)

    Probably not as prevalent amongst helicopter instructors, but what I recall of fixed wing training the younger ones really have no place instructing, more so to older students. They are just trying to build hours to move on to something else.

    The only instructing that I ever did was working up a young already licenced pilot for an endorsement on my own helicopter, to be checked out by a licenced instructor. Probably lose my licence these days if CASA got wind of it!

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    Interesting question!

    I got my PPL in my early 20's nearly 50 yrs ago and my Commercial licence in my early 30's. An instrument rating and instructors rated soon followed my CPL. I used my quaifications a great deal in my non-aviation professional career, and have flown all over Australia and New Zealand. I instructed casually for a couple of years and moon-lighted as a charter pilot to supplement my income and remain current, while gaining post-graduate qualifications in my profession.

    I have never seen a 60+ ab initio student pilot go on to have active use of their qualification. Most realised that it was not for them. Some survived unfortunate mishaps - others did not.

    If I had to put a figure on it, I would say 60!

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    I started PPL training in 1981. I did a lot of personal flying between then and 1984, when I did my multi-engine Class 1 Instrument rating (still on my PPL). I shifted jobs, and did heaps more personal flying, and also flying the directors of the company I worked for around in various single and multi-engine aircraft (still on PPL).

    So, after 6 years, and almost a thousand hours, I had saved enough dough to do my CPL/SCPL theory and the CPL flying. Once I'd finished that, I was planning to head north (like most new CPL holders do), but I thought I'd add another string to my bow and do a Grade 3 Instructor rating. There were 8 on my course. The least experienced had 175hrs (bare CPL). The most experienced (and oldest at 28) was me. None of them were multi-engined or instrument rated.

    To a certain extent the less experienced blokes barely knew how to fly, themselves. There was one guy who was very young and inexperienced, but he was the closest to a natural teacher I've seen. I'd argue he was the best on the course.

    I was fully of the expectation that we would have to head north for flying work, but the school owner offered me a full time job at the school. I was elated. So I fell into my first paid flying job and I still consider myself fortunate to have done so.

    The oldest person I taught during my career was an elderly gent (late 70's) who first flew Spitfires in the Battle of Britain and survived the war. Well, there wasn't really much I could teach him - I considered myself his 'safety pilot'

    The youngest I taught was a 10 year old girl - the daughter of a close friend. She would have soloed in about 5 hours, had she been 16.

    I instructed for about 8 years, the last 3 while working in an airline, but teaching Australian Airforce cadets ab-initio in an honourary capacity. Most of that was sending the kids first or second solo and supervising the junior instructors.

    To me, instructing certainly was a means of gaining hours - I don't deny that, but I gave each and every student the best I possibly could because I actually liked the job.

    John R.

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    I had been aircrew in the Mil for a few years and always wanted to be a Mil pilot but it didn't work out. I did my PPL in 81/82 as well as my CPL subjects.

    I did my SCPL subjects in 85 at Sydney Tafe and completed the practical for my CPL as well as a few ratings in 1985. I wanted to then follow the usual route of instructor, twin and IFR ratings and heading north to gain hours but as military officer I was earning about 4 times what I would earn doing the milk runs etc and was about to be promoted so was not really economical at that time.

    Yes I could have proceeded as a civil pilot but realistically would have always earned less than what I was doing in the Mil - with the exception of maybe becoming an international pilot - a few of my mil pilot compatriots did that but most only got jobs overseas with only a few stayed in Australia - those that did came a cropper in the pilot's strike.

    While there were always opportunities, to have the best chance of success in the airline industry my view was that you had to start as young as possible to have the best possible chance of success.

    To the original question related to age, I flew with instructors of various ages - the young guys were Ok but with the older guys and CFIs I always had it in the back of my mind what I would do if they karked it - the guy I had before solo was quite old and I was learning in a Piper Tomahawk that could be spun - in the spin I was not so worried about the plane but whether the old instructor would survive.

    My view is that for commercial operation the max age should be 60 with the appropriate medical clearance. For private work - maybe 70 and if fit over 70 but no passengers. I am now 66 and if I had been flying commercially I would have retired many years ago - no based on mental faculties but on medical grounds even though I would have passed medicals until recently.

    Garry
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    My view is that for commercial operation the max age should be 60 with the appropriate medical clearance. For private work - maybe 70 and if fit over 70 but no passengers. I am now 66 and if I had been flying commercially I would have retired many years ago - no based on mental faculties but on medical grounds even though I would have passed medicals until recently.
    The question being asked in the article concerns older people learning to fly, not at what age they should stop.

    With appropriate medical and recency checks there is absolutely no reason why a commercial pilot should stop flying at 60 years of age.
    My late friend was would have been 67 years old at the time, and would also have been the safest and most qualified pilot involved in that operation.

    Howard Wheatly

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    Oh Ok - misunderstood - in that case it does not matter if the trainee is medically fit - for me it then comes down how they exercise their qualifications. So if over 70 - no passengers or a qualified pilot in the other control seat.

    Garry
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    Garry,
    were you a Nav or similar?
    I went through a similar quandary when I chose to go flying. As a civilian in a pretty good job, I chose to take a 60% pay cut to go flying, because that's what I wanted to do, and could see the long-term picture.
    You're lucky you did what you did, because you really need a fire in your belly to get ahead as a civilian pilot.

    As far as age goes - all pilots have to pass several checks per year, regardless of age. In the company I work, 2 in the simulator and one in the aircraft, plus innumerable supports as the captain for junior guys that are supposed to be non-jeopardy (but really aren't). Plus we have several other classroom-based checks per year to keep our qualifications. I can assure you they don't cut us any slack (and nor should they) on the checks because we're older.

    So age largely is irrelevant in the big scheme of things. Provided we can pass a medical (2 per year past 60) and pass our checks, we are as good as (or better) than the younger ones. That's why they call us mentors

    P.S. I just turned 60 recently. Nobody has taken over from me, or instructed me to do something to comply with SOPs, but I have had to direct some young sprogs (or taken over control from them) to ensure they do comply
    That's why airlines like 'experience'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Jars View Post
    Garry,
    were you a Nav or similar?
    I went through a similar quandary when I chose to go flying. As a civilian in a pretty good job, I chose to take a 60% pay cut to go flying, because that's what I wanted to do, and could see the long-term picture.
    Yes Nav/sensor operator. When I was making my decisions, the airlines were not recruiting and who they did employ were ex military. At that time I had really no chance other than bug smashing around Aust for many years - I might have had a chance after the pilot's strike but with low hours vs higher age I would have been struggling.

    If I had been 18 at the time, I would have definitely given it a go.
    REMLR 243

    2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6
    1977 FC 101
    1976 Jaguar XJ12C
    1973 Haflinger AP700
    1971 Jaguar V12 E-Type Series 3 Roadster
    1957 Series 1 88"
    1957 Series 1 88" Station Wagon

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    I started my PPL in 1966, completed it in 1967 and bought a plane. I have not flown for 20 years, initially because of depression after the loss of my wife, since then because of financial constraints. I have flown over most of Australia and PNG, and also have done a small amount of flying in the USA. I have never been able to afford a twin endorsement, and decided not to do an instrument rating - which would have been minimally useful for the flying I have done. I have never even seriously contemplated a career in aviation - I had my own career in science, and saw the dubious career path into aviation as a fringe participant!

    Most of my flying has been in the Cessna 180 I owned, rented Beech A36 and Cessna 210, but I have flown a wide variety of singles. My only forced landing was in a Grumman AA-5 after it dropped a valve.

    I have no reason to consider that I would not be a safe pilot today subject to a medical (which is similar to that required in NSW annually for me to drive!) and a few hours to refresh skills and learning changes in procedures.
    John

    JDNSW
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDNSW View Post
    I have no reason to consider that I would not be a safe pilot today subject to a medical (which is similar to that required in NSW annually for me to drive!) and a few hours to refresh skills and learning changes in procedures.
    The question that was asked is, "How old is too old - to learn to fly"!

    Not, "How old is too old - to become current again"?

    or, "How old is too old - to keep flying"!

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