Are these five school punishments unacceptable?

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Originally Posted by bee utey

OK I'll weigh in here. When a child is young, reasoning does not work well. Once you have repeatedly warned them of consequences to which their reply is wilful misbehaviour, then a slap is appropriate. It's the shock value, hey they really mean it. Once the child is old/reasonable enough it is completely useless to smack them, I agree. But against say a 3 year old, it is the weapon of last resort and does them no harm. You would only have to do it a few times for them to get the message. I don't know when was the last time I smacked our now 28 year old, but he certainly hasn't become a violent offender from a few well timed smacks.

However if you lose your cool and wallop the living daylights out of a child, all bets are off. You need help.

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Can you reason with a dog? A horse? A parrot?

No, but their behaviour can be shaped and modified to do almost any task imaginable (even drive a car!). To suggest that you should try and reason with a toddler is insane, and not what I'm suggesting at all.

You may find that a 'smack' is effective - great! But imagine if there was a solution that didn't leave the enduring lesson: 'when I want to control someone else, I can use my physical strength to hit them into submission'...

Cheers,

Adam

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Originally Posted by THE BOOGER

Just to answer you yes in my line of work I get to "smack" a few adults and it usally changes their behaviour somtimes for the worst but then i get some help from my other "workers":angel:
It is a last resort after trying to get them to behave in a manner acceptable to other patrons but some people only understand the I can hit harder than you equation

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I wonder how they got that way? What might have lead them to the idea that using violence is the only way to control others?

I've also had a job (most of my adult life) where physical violence was used to control others - at the extreme end of the spectrum. What I learned from that is that it changed no one and achieved nothing. The people we tried to change with violence became more violent.

I'm not suggesting a mung-bean, gregorian chanting drum circle approach to every problem in life. Sometimes you have to fight or be destroyed - I understand that, very well. What I am suggesting is the message we send kids by 'smacking' them is that we control the behaviour of others by using our physical strength to make them comply with our requirements. That is not a good message for kids.

I'll sign off on this as I've said my piece, outlined my points and tried my best to explain the science and reasoning behind my position. You can either reflect on it, or not.

Cheers,

Adam

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Originally Posted by akelly

Can you reason with a dog? A horse? A parrot?

No, but their behaviour can be shaped and modified to do almost any task imaginable (even drive a car!). To suggest that you should try and reason with a toddler is insane, and not what I'm suggesting at all.

You may find that a 'smack' is effective - great! But imagine if there was a solution that didn't leave the enduring lesson: 'when I want to control someone else, I can use my physical strength to hit them into submission'...

Cheers,

Adam

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Are you saying there is never an excuse for physical punishment, even when inaction may endanger a life? Does one smack scar the receiver for life and turn them into a psycopathic monster? How is a smack intrinsically more harmful than watching movies on TV? How much of your life do you have to raise the perfect child?

My last word: If you cannot control your anger you should never be with kids. They could drive you over the edge. If you are in control, you use whatever treatment gets the best result in the specific incident..

there is this guy( he is quite the grubby person) that comes into work a lot, he has 2 autistic kids(1 boy,1 girl) the boy he can leave in the car but the girl he has to bring into the shop and he is forever hitting her and smacking her as she tries to grab things, I really do not know what to think about it.

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest and am probably sitting on the fence now but just with my 2 legs on the no smacking side.
I have been thinking about the comments about smacking small kids(probably up to 4yrs of age). I was thinking back to when i got smacked and it was not the physical side that really was the problem it was more the action, that scared the bejebus's out of me, but it has not scared either physically or mentally as i can still cook using a wooden spoon.
I also think in regards to the comment about , you can smack little kids as they are sometimes impossible to reason with, if that was an acceptable reason then I am sure there are a lot of people at various ages i could give a smack to.
But then again we are just talking about parenting I hope, but then what about when your toddlers are at a daycare should the daycare workers be allowed to smack the kids?
I did watch super nanny once upon a time and 1 of the things I really liked that she made the parents do was, when the parents punished their kids they were made to explain why they were being punished as this helps them to think and understand what they did( well hopefully)

[QUOTE=Sleepy;1814506]It's funny how some always equate discipline with violence.:angel:



Licensed! :Rolling:Ha! Imagine the test.!

The fact is these so-called teachers were sadistic mongrels who could only stand tall in their own pretend little world of intimidation, bullying and violence....but perhaps my experience was different to some!:angel:

Just goes to show you how disproportionate violence directed against a child (under 10) can leave permanent yet invisible scars......even 40 years later.

Didn't you pull your hand away just before first one landed and had the satisfaction of seeing the cane or the strap(Christian Bros used the strap) get the perpetrator on his leg? You might have then received double but they got the first one. One brother got such a good one ,I think it made him tone down a bit in the future just in case he received another.

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Originally Posted by akelly

Are you suggesting that when you are unable to reason with a child you should resort to violence?

You may be interested to know that animals can be taught very sophisticated behaviour (like finding explosives for example) solely through reinforcement. The animals don't need to be struck in this process. Humans have the advantage of language (most of us), so we can take advantage of something called 'rule governed behaviour' - basically we can tell someone what we want them to do, rather than waiting for them to do a close approximation of the target behaviour (like we have to do with animals).

Please point out my straw man arguments, because I'm always keen to learn from my mistakes.

Cheers,

Adam

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There is an example of a straw man in your first line. You ignore my points about all people being different and that there is no one size fits all approach. A child does not have the intellectual ability to reason as you would with a teen or another adult, if the other methods of discipline do not achieve the desired endstate then physical discipline is another option at your disposal.

Your example of rule governed behaviour has one very significant caveat, respect. If the ruled have none for the ruler then there is no discipline and no desire to conform to the rules. One only has to look at any typical high school for numerous examples of this.

As to your question regarding whether I would do the same to an adult? Yes I would and have. The law permits any one of us to physically discipline our children and with respect to adults, it is permitted to enforce or prevent breaches of the law and to address behaviour that places others at risk.

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Originally Posted by PeterM

There is an example of a straw man in your first line. You ignore my points about all people being different and that there is no one size fits all approach. A child does not have the intellectual ability to reason as you would with a teen or another adult, if the other methods of discipline do not achieve the desired endstate then physical discipline is another option at your disposal.

Your example of rule governed behaviour has one very significant caveat, respect. If the ruled have none for the ruler then there is no discipline and no desire to conform to the rules. One only has to look at any typical high school for numerous examples of this.

As to your question regarding whether I would do the same to an adult? Yes I would and have. The law permits any one of us to physically discipline our children and with respect to adults, it is permitted to enforce or prevent breaches of the law and to address behaviour that places others at risk.

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Peter, I'm just going to reply to this one post and then I'm done on the subject:

What you think is a straw man is not. See my other posts on using reason in this context (can you reason with a dog?).

You don't understand what rule governed behaviour is, I probably didn't explain it in enough detail but there is plenty of information to assist available if you look for it. If you read up on the topic you will see why your assumption is incorrect.

Lastly, I'm not talking about what's legal. I'm talking about what is rational behaviour.

Cheers,

Adam

Hi Adam not trying to draw you in but too most parents and teachers corporal punishment is or should be a last resort but if you take it away as an option what do you do when cajoling, bribes, stars and stamps just dont get the required change in behaviour? Its like telling bank robbers that the police will no longer chase them if they go over the speed limit some will deliberatly go over to get what they want, there is a small percentage of people both adults and children who will always rebel against any authority. Of the 5 punishments listed the only 1 I would have concerns about is the padded isolation room and as for the police option if a 10 year old brings a knife to school and threatens the teacher or other students then yep hand them over to police they are already to far gone for the school system to deal with:(

PS: I started out in the same bussiness as you only a couple of years before you.:)

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Originally Posted by Disco44

Didn't you pull your hand away just before first one landed and had the satisfaction of seeing the cane or the strap(Christian Bros used the strap) get the perpetrator on his leg? You might have then received double but they got the first one. One brother got such a good one ,I think it made him tone down a bit in the future just in case he received another.

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Nah not a catholic School. Just a state primary east of Melbourne in the 70's. In fact this is the first time I have ever mentioned it. Feels good. :)