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Dazza, I had the same experience as you until I found the Subaru and Recreational 4wd Club. The members are very nice, they hold plenty of trips and even though there are a lot of big heifer chunky 4wd's there, they aren't testosterone fueled. Maybe because there are Subarus on a lot of the trips. They still get into it though. Very family oriented and they are members of the Association. Cheers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazza67
Hi Jim,Quote:
Originally Posted by CRR88
Unfortunately I have to come to the conclusion there will never be "free" public access. Recently the Association member club's financial members were issued with dated Forests NSW stickers so that clubs and their members would not have to pay the "group"and "individual" fees to use State Forests. This because the Association made other undertakings to the administration.
Since when did you not have to pay to use National Parks?
Can you still be a recreational shooter without being a member of a club? No
Have an historic vehicle on conditional registration without being in a club?
I am not saying it's right, just that is the way it is.
NPWS have been trialling "drones" with NPR (Number Plate Recognition) cameras - so fine in the mail for illegal incursions. It also will stop staff being assaulted.
Bob
Thanks Bob,
You are right, unfortunately everything is going user pays, however I hate to think that I would have to join a club just to camp at the beach or keep my eye on the speedo so I don't get caught by a speed camera on Stockton sand dunes.
Jim
"It is only fit and proper that John Rooth, Australias most respected and articulate advocate for the rights of recreational four wheel drive enthusiasts, lead and speak on our behalf, protest being the only forum of effect upon those whose focus is the prevention of access by motor vehicle to non road areas and the ultimate extinction of four wheel drive vehicles as a species. Every closure is a battle that must be fought and John Rooth is our general."
Is this a paid political annoncement by the ROOTHY fan club.
The creditbity of Mr Rooth and his gang has very little impact on the decision.
The real problem lays solely at the feet of the irresponsible minority of 4wders who vandalize the bush. Im many of the 4x4 action DVD's you see this vandalism acts which ROOTHY advocators
Now now bussy1963,
If only you might take a broader view of the situation. Most thinking people know that John Rooth is not the right person to represent us in delicate negotiations, however we each have a roll we can play.
Roothy is simply a man who wishes to speak out & is using whatever media he has available to him & after yesterdays rally you would have to agree he is far from alone.
The irresponsible minority are a problem, however, there are other non 4wd user groups who simply do not want any form of mechanical transport in the bush regardless of how lightly you tread.
If nothing else Roothy has stirred public interest, now it's time for groups such as the 4wd association to engage in negotiations & improve their communications on any progress achieved to continue the swell of support Roothy has started.
Of course, from 4wdA magazines perspective was all about trying to influence NPWS and has nothing to do with getting increased visibility for its magazine and increasing readership.Quote:
Originally Posted by bussy1963
I would have thought the Roothy types are exactly the people NPWS would like to exclude form these areas.
Having said that and while I disagree with the strategy behind the protest I would be happy if it was successful. However having worked in natural resource management at the Federal level before I retired a little while back I have an appreciation on the thought processes of these agencies and I believe their resolution to close the area would have hardened their resolve - they like to work with Peak Bodies behind the scenes and get to personally know the lobbyists. But I would like to be proven wrong but I doubt it.
The unknown quantity are the traditional owners who hold the power behind the scenes.
Garry
And therein lies a problem. This is how it works; lets imagine a starting point on a line. To the right of that point are closures and increasing legislation, to the left, free access and less legislation. The government, traffic authorities and NPWS etc propose restrictions of some kind. The lobyists and peak bodies buddy up (yeah, he's not a bad bloke. Good sort really) and come to a compromise which doesn't upset anybody too much. Everybody pats each other on the back and crows on what a good job they have done, especially the lobbyists who have stopped some draconian ingress to our rights by being reasonable and flexible, after all, sticking rigidly to ones demands really doesn't get anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by garrycol
Now lets get back to that line. The original proposals would have pushed that spot way to the right. The lobbyists have produced a compromise which has it moved just a little to the right. And then the next issue, another compromise and another little jump the right; and again and again. That little spot never goes left, just right, little by little and the draconian proposal of some time ago eventually becomes a reality without a whimper from lobbyist bodies because it has crept up slowly and been allowed to because no firm stand was taken, just compromise by people that have got to 'personally know each other'. The system needs a noisy and annoying Roothy type.
When I said lobbyist get to know the legislators I didn't say anything about compromise - normally there is little compromise but there is lots of putting positions.
However it does take a lot of diplomacy and stroking of egos and maybe time but often the lobbyists win out where those who are more to the point and maybe lack credibility in the eyes of the legislators get no where.
As part of my job I also had to deal with indigenous groups and "respectful", conciliatory approach is needed. Has Roothy and his 4WDA cronies quietly met with the traditional owners of Stockton to put their case - I don't know, but I suspect not as they would not get the publicity needed for their magazine.
An example - the ACT Council of Motor Clubs has been negotiating with the ACT Government for quite a while to introduce a 90 day system for concessional (historic) registration where an owner could have unrestricted use of their "special vehicle" as long as the vehicle for more that 90 days a year.
The public servants were against the scheme but they it is the Chief Minister and Minister take their advice and that of the recognised Peak Body. The Peak body had been working through with the department on their objections and counteracting their arguments and were close to being able to get the new proposal up but it was taking time. However some hotter heads in one of the car clubs considered the process was taking too long and wrote an abusive letter to the Minister and Chief Minister threatening a whole lot of actions - within one week the decision was made - bringing the whole process to a holt - the answer had gone from a we are close to getting this to an absolute NO.
The same applies to the process at Stockton. There is a time and place for protests like what happened yesterday but not at the start - it is for when diplomacy has not worked then by all means let all the masses have their voice.
Garry
Garry,
Please continue on, I am most interested to know what happened after the ACT Council of Motor Clubs received a firm no answer.
Were there rallys and if so what was the outcome? There may be some learning here that can be used in future protests over the Stockton issue.
You see this was not so much a protest rally prior to negotiation perhaps it was a call from the people to say it seems quite clear that the softly softly approach has little or no impact & it's time to move to the next phase.
Jim
Have a read of this thread on the Vehicles Modification "draconian" rules that the bureaucracy was working on for years:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-ch...ety-again.html
4WD NSW&ACT is a member of the Australian Confederation of Motor Clubs (ACMC) and this shows how it should be done. After the first Conference last year one of the main architects of it was no longer to be seen;);).
There will be another Conference at Eastern Creek on 17 February 2013 and there will be a show of "concern" again to the Minister, potential Parliamentarians and the bureaucrats. We need as many 4wdrives and members to be at this as possible, the Minister will be there and a lot of interested people from around Australia turning up, more info to follow.
The incredible part is they use our money to fight us and we use our money to fight them, maybe we should apply for some Government Grants to help us in our fight.
Bob