Thread: Nuclear power plants

Originally Posted by Yorkie

just as easy to have a nuclear reactor running, no gases from burning off, and after all nuclear is nearly green energy as if comes out of the ground.

Nuclear is a lot slower to start and stop. Even swanbank coal power station has RR turbines converted to run on NG/diesel to generate baseload if the main power station is shutdown or to cover peaks.

Nuclear is not as green as you think. Once you factor in all the energy required to store the fuel safely and the FULL cleanup on decommissioning.

They dug up the entire carpark etc around Lucas heights as "low grade" nuclear waste. Last I heard it was sitting in 44 gallon drums in a warehouse somewhere.

The coal + geosequestration crowd think they can get it delivered cheaper than nuclear.

Note that I am not opposed to nuclear. However it is not as cheap or as green as most people think.

Originally Posted by Eevo

True radiation really doesn't cause unusual mutation. It is toxic chemicals that will cause mutation and changes in DNA. Radiation will breakdown and decay DNA, but not mutate it. It would take a chemical compound to be absorbed and physically have to change it.

Mutation is the least of your worries, Bob [ whilst in the RAN, I spent a couple of years as an NBCD instructor. Nuclear, Biological and Chemical defence. Doesn't mean I am an expert, by any means. But the subject frightened the hell out of me. The standing joke was " what do you do in the event of a Nuclear or Biological attack? put your head between your knees, and kiss your rear end goodbye". Bob


Radiation Effects on Humans

• 
  
  • Radiation occurs when unstable nuclei of atoms decay and release particles. There are many different types of radiation. When these particles touch various organic material such as tissue, damage may, and probably will, be done. Radiation can cause burns, cancers, and death.
  Units of Measurement
  
  
  • The unit used to measure radiation dosage is the rem, which stands for roentgen equivalent in man. It represents the amount of radiation needed to produce a particular amount of damage to living tissue. The total dose of rems determines how much harm a person suffers. At Hiroshima and Nagasaki, people received a dose of rems at the instant of the explosions, then more from the surroundings and, in limited areas, from fallout. Fallout is composed of radioactive particles that are carried into the upper atmosphere by a nuclear explosion and that eventually fall back to the earth's surface.
  Effects of Radiation Exposure on Human Health
  
  
  • Although a dose of just 25 rems causes some detectable changes in blood, doses to near 100 rems usually have no immediate harmful effects. Doses above 100 rems cause the first signs of radiation sickness including:
    
    • nausea
    • vomiting
    • headache
    • some loss of white blood cells
    Doses of 300 rems or more cause temporary hair loss, but also more significant internal harm, including damage to nerve cells and the cells that line the digestive tract. Severe loss of white blood cells, which are the body's main defense against infection, makes radiation victims highly vulnerable to disease. Radiation also reduces production of blood platelets, which aid blood clotting, so victims of radiation sickness are also vulnerable to hemorrhaging. Half of all people exposed to 450 rems die, and doses of 800 rems or more are always fatal. Besides the symptoms mentioned above, these people also suffer from fever and diarrhea. As of yet, there is no effective treatment--so death occurs within two to fourteen days.
    In time, for survivors, diseases such as leukemia (cancer of the blood), lung cancer, thyroid cancer, breast cancer, and cancers of other organs can appear due to the radiation received.
  Major Radiation Exposure in Real Life Events
  
  • Hiroshima and Nagasaki
    
    For more information on what happened at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, consult the nuclear past page and the nuclear warfare page.
    Many people at Hiroshima and Nagasaki died not directly from the actual explosion, but from the radiation released as a result of the explosion. For example, a fourteen-year-old boy was admitted to a Hiroshima hospital two days after the explosion, suffering from a high fever and nausea. Nine days later his hair began to fall out. His supply of white blood cells dropped lower and lower. On the seventeenth day he began to bleed from his nose, and on the twenty-first day he died.
    At Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the few surviving doctors observed symptoms of radiation sickness for the first time. In his book Nagasaki 1945, Dr. Tatsuichiro Akizuki wrote of the puzzling, unknown disease, of symptoms that "suddenly appeared in certain patients with no apparent injuries." Several days after the bombs exploded, doctors learned that they were treating the effects of radiation exposure. "We were now able to label our unknown adversary 'atomic disease' or 'radioactive contamination' among other names. But they were only labels: we knew nothing about its cause or cure... Within seven to ten days after the A-bomb explosion, people began to die in swift succession. They died of the burns that covered their bodies and of acute atomic disease. Innumerable people who had been burnt turned a mulberry color, like worms, and died... The disease," wrote Dr. Akizuki, "destroyed them little by little. As a doctor, I was forced to face the slow and certain deaths of my patients."
    Doctors and nurses had no idea of how their own bodies had been affected by radioactivity. Dr. Akizuki wrote, "All of us suffered from diarrhea and a discharge of blood from the gums, but we kept this to ourselves. Each of us thought: tomorrow it might be me... We became stricken with fear of the future." Dr. Akizuki survived, as did several hundred thousand others in or near Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In fact, at least ten people who had fled from Hiroshima to Nagasaki survived both bombs.
    The survivors have suffered physically from cataracts, leukemia and other cancers, malformed offspring, and premature aging, and also emotionally, from social discrimination. Within a few months of the nuclear explosions, leukemia began to appear among the survivors at an abnormally high rate. Some leukemia victims were fetuses within their mothers' wombs when exposed to radiation. One child who was born two days after the Hiroshima explosion eventually died of acute leukemia at the age of eighteen. The number of leukemia cases has declined with time, but the incidence of lung cancer, thyroid cancer, breast cancer, and cancers of other organs has increased among the survivors.
    Three Mile Island
    
    For more information on what happened at Three Mile Island, consult the nuclear past page.
    On a Wednesday morning, maintenance workers cleaning sludge from a small pipe blocked the flow of water in the main feedwater system of a reactor at Three Mile Island near Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. The sift foreman heard "loud, thunderous noises, like a couple of freight trains," coming. Since the reactor was still producing heat, it heated the blocked cooling water around its core hot enough to create enough pressure to have popped a relief valve. Some 220 gallons of water per minute began flowing out of the reactor vessel. Within five minutes after the main feedwater system failed, the reactor, deprived of all normal and emergency sources of cooling water, and no longer able to use its enormous energy to generate electricity, gradually started to tear itself apart.
    The loss of coolant at the reactor continued for some 16 hours. Abort a third of the core melted down. Radioactive water flowed through the stuck relief valve into an auxiliary building, where it pooled on the floor. Radioactive gas was released into the atmosphere. An estimated 140,000 people were evacuated from the area. It took a month to stabilize the malfunctioning unit and safely shut it down. The reactor was a total loss and the cleanup required years of repair and hundreds of millions of dollars.
    No one was reported injured and the little radiation that leaked out was quickly dispersed. Although this accident did cost lots of money and time, no one was hurt.
    Chernobyl
    
    For more information on what happened at Chernobyl, consult the nuclear past page.
    A far more serious accident occured at Chernobyl, in what was then still the Soviet Union. At the time of the accident, the Chernobyl nuclear power station consisted of four operating 1,000 megawatt power reactors. Without question, the accident at Chernobyl was the result of a fatal combination of ignorance and complacency. "As members of a select scientific panel convened immediately after the... accident," writes Nobel laureate Hans Bethe, "my colleagues and I established that the Chernobyl disaster tells us about the deficiencies of the Soviet political and administrative system rather than about problems with nuclear power."
    Although the problem at Chernobyl was relatively complex, it can basically be summarized as a mismanaged electrical engineering experiment which resulted in the reactor exploding. The explosion was chemical, driven by gases and steam generated by the core runaway, not by nuclear reactions. Flames, sparks, and chunks of burning material were flying into the air above the unit. These were red-hot pieces of nuclear fuel and graphite. About 50 tons of nuclear fuel evaporated and were released by the explosion into the atmosphere. In addition, about 70 tons were ejected sideways from the periphery of the core. Some 50 tons of nuclear fuel and 800 tons of reactor graphite remained in the reactor vault, where it formed a pit reminiscent of a volcanic crater as the graphite still in the reactor had turned up completely in a few days after the explosion.
    The resulting radioactive release was equivalent to ten Hiroshimas. In fact, since the Hiroshima bomb was air-burst--no part of the fireball touched the ground--the Chernobyl release polluted the countryside much more than ten Hiroshimas would have done. Many people died from the explosion and even more from the effects of the radiation later. Still today, people are dying from the radiation caused by the Chernobyl accident. The estimated total number of deaths will be 16,000.
  Medical Treatment
  
  • For a more in-depth view of current medical technologies available to the treatment of radiation, go to the medical imaging page.
    There is currently no effective medical treatment available for potentially fatal radiation doses. The case of the Japanese boy mentioned above illustrates an important fact about radiation sickness. The boy had probably received a dose of 450 rems or more, yet his symptoms were about the same as those of a person who received about 300 rems. Medical science has no way of telling the difference between people who have received fatal doses and will die despite all efforts and others who received less radiation and can be saved. Treatment for the ones that can be saved includes blood transfusions and bone-marrow transplants. Bone-marrow transplants rejuvenate the supply of white blood cells which was affected by the radiation.
  Related Sites
  
  • If you have questions, comments, or anything else to say, contact the forum.

The company i work for in Brisbane is French based.About 4 years ago a delegation of engineers ( who make reactors) from France had a look over our facility, the product we were making is one of the constituents used in reactors/fuel rods. They told us at the time that, their projection for nuclear power plant construction was increasing ten fold.I think Fukushima may have had an impact on the construction of nuclear power plants.I think nuclear power plants are a great idea, until something goes wrong. Everyone put you hand up if you want one within 100 km of where you live.Most people would have the nimby Syndrome. NOT IN MY BACKYARD .

Hydroelectric power is not nearly as green as you think.

Hydroelectric Dams Produce 20 Times more Methane Gas when Water Level is Low

New hydro dams in wilderness area drown huge amounts of vegetable matter that rots and produces methane. And Australia couldn't add a lot of hydro without losing productive land in any case. Nuclear might indeed be greener.

However Australia should invest heavily in solar thermal storage plants and geothermal (hot rocks) energy supplies as they produce the lowest greenhouse emissions of any base load technology available. Port Augusta in SA is one of the best sites available for solar thermal technology, major power infrastructure (ancient coal fired plants and their distribution network) is already in place, cooling water and stinking hot weather are there too.

Lastly, "base load" used to be what you sold cheaply to heat off peak domestic hot water, how does that compute these days with substantial solar hot water system take-up?

Originally Posted by Yorkie

you think it would have been any better if the french found this place first?

Your ignorance of our history is annoying, neither the English, nor French " found this place". I suggest all nuclear waste from future power plants be shipped to England, and buried there. Seems fair to me. Some of your ex-servicemen would probably agree it should be buried under the House of Parliament. Bob

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Originally Posted by bob10

Your ignorance of our history is annoying, neither the English, nor French " found this place". I suggest all nuclear waste from future power plants be shipped to England, and buried there. Seems fair to me. Some of your ex-servicemen would probably agree it should be buried under the House of Parliament. Bob

apologies, forgot sarcasim was prohibted!.
i am aware of quite a bit of australian history and certainly not ignorant to such things, but thanks for asking.

So what energy powers the sun?
What energy powers the furnace in the centre of the earth.?
The emissions from this via volcanoes are not radioactive.
Reproduce this on the surface to solve the problems

Originally Posted by disco63

Everyone put you hand up if you want one within 100 km of where you live.Most people would have the nimby Syndrome. NOT IN MY BACKYARD .

Visited Taiwan a while back and had a look around the Maan Shan nuclear power station built right on the beach in the middle of a popular tourist district.

People were down on the beach swimming adjacent to and within sight of the reactor domes, cooling water inlet and outlets

Different people certainly have different ideas on what's acceptable re the location of such things

Google Maps: Maan Shan Nuclear Power Station