Wild Pig steals beers

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

You've been listening to the anti-gun lobby too long. NSW has the tightest firearms regulatons in the country and have you seen the number of shooting incidents here. Mostly its criminals shooting other criminals. One fatal shooting this afternoon.

The regulations and restrictions have done nothing to stop prescribed people getting unregistered prohibited weapons. There are as many registered firearms in the hands of legal owners today as there were before the Port Arthur Massacre.

No I don't own a firearm and no I don't want to shoot and kill things, but I also don't believe that prohbition is the answer.

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In 1996 there were 516 gun deaths. In 2010 there were 236. That's a 46% reduction. So I was wrong. Apologies.

There are 2.7 million registered guns now but there were only 2.1 million in 1996 so you are correct.

But from 1996 to 2001 nearly 700'000 automatic and illegal guns were handed in. A further 1 million guns have been handed in since then. Just so you know, the Aussie military only has 250'000 guns.

In Australia there are 15 guns per 100 people. In the USA there are 101 guns for every 100 people. And there are 32'000 gun deaths a year in the USA. Per population that is more than 10 times the rate of gun deaths compared to Australia. So 10 times the amount of guns means 10 times the rate of human gun death. Yeah, let's follow their lead and get more guns ;). Surely that'll make us safe.

And I like to look at the facts lotsalandies, not postulate without fact checking.


http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia

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Originally Posted by V8Ian

I reckon I've carted 23,000,000 pigs and it made no impact on their population; a slight exageration maybe, but three trailer loads a week in the dry season is a lot of trotters.
Lotza, I'm in total aggreeance with your last sentence but shooting will not eradicate feral pigs. The task would have to be completed within one dry season in The Cape and Gulf areas, as the pigs are not accessable during the wet, when they breed up.

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Sorry guys but gun control works. Facts are facts. Prohibition is another matter entirely. There are now more registered guns in Australia than there were in 1996. Why aren't there more gun deaths? Because there are less automatic guns and handguns available now, better education and background checks. Australia is proof that gun control (type and licensing restrictions) works.

And I agree with you Ian regarding the use of guns to control feral pigs. It can't and won't work. We have to look at alternative methods.

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Originally Posted by gusthedog

In 1996 there were 516 gun deaths. In 2010 there were 236. That's a 46% reduction. So I was wrong. Apologies.

There are 2.7 million registered guns now but there were only 2.1 million in 1996 so you are correct.

But from 1996 to 2001 nearly 700'000 automatic and illegal guns were handed in. A further 1 million guns have been handed in since then. Just so you know, the Aussie military only has 250'000 guns.

In Australia there are 15 guns per 100 people. In the USA there are 101 guns for every 100 people. And there are 32'000 gun deaths a year in the USA. Per population that is more than 10 times the rate of gun deaths compared to Australia. So 10 times the amount of guns means 10 times the rate of human gun death. Yeah, let's follow their lead and get more guns ;). Surely that'll make us safe.

And I like to look at the facts lotsalandies, not postulate without fact checking.


Guns in Australia: Firearms, armed violence and gun law

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Sorry but you should get your facts right too. The average shooter never has and still does not have access to automatic firearms and the bulk of the guns handed in during the so called" buyback" were not illegal either.
As Diana said earlier all this gun related crime is caused by crims with illegal guns and no amount of legislation is going to make them hand them in.

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Originally Posted by 123rover50

Sorry but you should get your facts right too. The average shooter never has and still does not have access to automatic firearms and the bulk of the guns handed in during the so called" buyback" were not illegal either.
As Diana said earlier all this gun related crime is caused by crims with illegal guns and no amount of legislation is going to make them hand them in.

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The total deaths I mentioned above include the use of illegal guns. Those stats actually just measure death by type. So are the crims now shooting themselves less than they did in 1996? Is that why there is a drop in gun deaths?

And so you know the 'facts' approximately 730,000 of the guns handed in during the buy back were deemed illegal (auto's and pump actions)

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Originally Posted by gusthedog

The total deaths I mentioned above include the use of illegal guns. Those stats actually just measure death by type. So are the crims now shooting themselves less than they did in 1996? Is that why there is a drop in gun deaths?

And so you know the 'facts' approximately 730,000 of the guns handed in during the buy back were deemed illegal (auto's and pump actions)

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You are still wrong as now you are talking shotguns. Pump action shotguns are still legal on a special licence.
Pump action rifles are available to any one with a cat B licence and have never been illegal.
As I said before autos have never been freely available and certainly 730,000 would not have been just your so called' auto" and pump guns.
Do you know what an auto is?
Anyway I suggest if you wish to continue discussing this it may be better to start a new thread rather than continue to hijack this one.

Didiman

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Originally Posted by gusthedog

In 1996 there were 516 gun deaths. In 2010 there were 236. That's a 46% reduction. So I was wrong. Apologies.

There are 2.7 million registered guns now but there were only 2.1 million in 1996 so you are correct.

But from 1996 to 2001 nearly 700'000 automatic and illegal guns were handed in. A further 1 million guns have been handed in since then. Just so you know, the Aussie military only has 250'000 guns.

In Australia there are 15 guns per 100 people. In the USA there are 101 guns for every 100 people. And there are 32'000 gun deaths a year in the USA. Per population that is more than 10 times the rate of gun deaths compared to Australia. So 10 times the amount of guns means 10 times the rate of human gun death. Yeah, let's follow their lead and get more guns ;). Surely that'll make us safe.

And I like to look at the facts lotsalandies, not postulate without fact checking.

Guns in Australia: Firearms, armed violence and gun law

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I notice that you quote statistics from a anti-gun site.

But if you look at other statistics, you will find a halving of the rate of robbery with a knife as a weapon between 2001 and 2009 ( Australian Institute of Criminology - Knife crime: Recent data on carriage and use) so the rate of gun homicide may well have followed a similar pattern with or without the National Firearms Guidelines and the changes in the various state laws and regulation. We will never know the truth.

My point is that the ferral pig at the begining of this thread (now deceased by a road kill incident) would most likely have been exterminated well before the beer stealing incident had gun hunting regulations not been so restrictive.

I'm not advocating a US style gun culture but I am a supporter of responsible gun ownership and use. Criminals will always be able to get guns and commit gun crimes.

My original point was that to control pigs in Australia with guns is impossible. They are so widespread and remote that it will never work. It has to be part of a combined approach.


From:http://www.feral.org.au/wp-content/u...ig-control.pdf

Ground shooting and hunting with dogs:
Intensive ground shooting — both recreational and professional — can be effective in some localised settings where pig numbers are low1

And:

Effective control of invasive animals rarely works with a single-strategy approach. The listed feral pig control techniques in this factsheet are best used together in a strategic fashion to manage feral pig populations, and reduce their impacts on farms and the environment.

Given feral pig numbers are extraordinarily large, a combined approach would work more effectively than shooting.

And we'll have to agree to disagree on gun control. You are not going to change your mind due to a comment from someone you don't know on a car forum. I think it works but that's my opinion. YMMV

You also said that I quote from an anti-gun site. Well that's because pro-gun sites normally don't like having statistics available that show they're wrong :D

That article you quoted showed that knife murders have remained stable BUT the percentage of knifes used as a murder weapon has increased (per population):

Table 1: Use of knives in murder and attempted murder
Murder Attempted murder
n % n %
2001 90 28.9 151 33.0
2002 72 22.7 142 35.5
2003 86 28.6 115 32.0
2004 69 26.1 100 32.1
2005 78 30.1 81 29.9
2006 95 33.8 86 35.7
2007 81 31.8 100 40.3
2008 87 33.3 74 31.4
2009 94 36.0 87 36.9

I'm not sure that is conclusive evidence of anything other than the murder rate is dropping and that knives are now used more than they used to be to kill people per number of kills. Indeed, knives are being used less to wound people but that really doesn't tell us anything in isolation either.

That article also says that:
Analysis of the data indicated an increase in the use of knives as a proportion of all homicides, although the number of homicides remained relatively constant. The proportionate use of knives in robberies, by contrast, remained fairly constant, while the number of robberies decreased dramatically

So the proportionate use of knives in robberies is actually constant over time. The thing is that robberies, deaths and crime rates are decreasing. Knife use is still proportionally the same.

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

I'm not advocating a US style gun culture but I am a supporter of responsible gun ownership and use. Criminals will always be able to get guns and commit gun crimes.

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FWIW, I too support reasonable and responsible gun ownership and use. But that is very different to a gun culture.
America has a gun culture, in that it's not a privilege, it's a right. And God help you if you even suggest reducing that right a tiny bit. It's ingrained and entrenched within American society that guns are normal, nothing special, infact we need more good guys with more guns. That will solve all our problems.
Whereas in Australia, we don't have a gun "culture" and I'm very glad of that. Owning a firearm should be a privilege, not a right. A tightly controlled privilege, but not overly so.
Should citizens be able to own firearms? Yes, within reason.
Is the current system difficult to deal with? Yes.
Do we need a gun culture? No, we don't.
Yes, crims are always going to find a way to get what they want.
We don't need to make it any easier for them.

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Originally Posted by gusthedog

My original point was that to control pigs in Australia with guns is impossible. They are so widespread and remote that it will never work. It has to be part of a combined approach.

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So the proportionate use of knives in robberies is actually constant over time. The thing is that robberies, deaths and crime rates are decreasing. Knife use is still proportionally the same.

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Yes some ferral animals are remote and civilian hunting will have minimal impact upon that. The pig at the centre of this thread was not remote and was habituated to close contact with humans, these sorts of ferral animals could easily be subject to reductions by human erradication.

The fact that violent crime is reducing is my point exactly. Anti-gun protagonists are happy to use the crude data in isolation as proof of their argument. Yes gun crime is down, but so is other violent crime yet the number of registered firearms is actually up, so something other than the relationship between gun numbers and gun deaths is the reason for the reduction. Perhaps it is tighter regulation and perhaps it is better policing.

No I'm not going to convince you and 5 years ago I would have agreed with you. But today I am less convinced about the causal relationship.

Diana :)