Letting tyres pressures down

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Originally Posted by landy

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the trainers comments. But the point was that they teach air down only when necessary and air up once though the obstacle. As the beach is a gazetted road.
However to say that you think it's "not a large issue" to travel at 15psi for hundreds of kilometres gazillions of times is possibly the most irresponsible thing I have heard in a long time.

Nino.

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I think you may have been correct if you had posted that a particular class was instructed in a very pedantic way that lacked practicality.

And while it may be interesting to know what some "trainers" are promulgating, this appears to be an unfortunate occurance.

Because of current training regimes, not all trainers are either appropriate to the task or have sufficient practical experience. A lot of their "qualifications" are "competency" (tick the box) based with no requirement for actual knowledge.

Some of the posters on this site have had extensive practical experience and IMHO you make an error by denigrating those who have tried to point out the practical aspects just because some rule-keeper has given you the impression that he is correct when it is not necessarily so. :)

I know what I do on sand - and long distances of sand driving at that, and I doubt it would be in accordance with what your trainer has suggested to you. But tick the box and pass his exam - it has little value probably. It's not what you're told but what you learn that matters.

As others have suggested, getting out and enjoying life may be a good idea :)

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Originally Posted by landy

But the point was that they teach air down only when necessary and air up once though the obstacle. As the beach is a gazetted road.

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I've read that it's not due to the fact that it's a gazetted road but due to the fact that the emergency services don't want to waste time airing down from sealed to unsealed/sand & then back up again to complete their 'mission'.

What about the run flat tyres on Beemers etc? They should be illegal according to this guys logic. Also, I find it difficult to believe that someone driving normally with tyres at lower pressure could be booked for culpable (reckless) driving. If they are driving recklessly, then they should be booked whether the tyres are up or down. Low pressure can be cause for a loss of stability but it is one of many and ultimately it is up to the driver to keep the car under control. I read the guys comments as that it is better to drive recklessly with adequate pressure in the tyres. I can't see how that makes any sense at all.

I think also that much of the Police training is to gain proficiency in a particular task or skill, not to develop expertise or master-level ability. The off-road course is to enable a trainee to proficiently operate a 4wd vehicle off-road, it does not turn out expert 4wders. Similarly, the rescue use of abseiling equipment does not create mountaineers or free-climbing rockclimbers. The firearms course demonstrates safe and effective use of firearms to trainees that may not have ever seen a firearm before, it does not create marksmen or competition-level shooters.


This is not criticism levelled at the various Police Services. It is equally apparent in many Industry training on a wide variety of skill subjects. It has long been said that there is no longer any such thing as common sense, as so many people from different walks of life have no life experience in many areas. Employers are now required to provide training for so many tasks and skills that in years gone by, the attitude would have been "You''ll be right, give it a go".


To advise "Operators" of 4wd vehicles not to air down would be a cautiously correct approach for drivers that are not enthusiasts or have a good understanding of the inherent risks and changes that result from that action. Any 4wd club training or commercial training outfit for recreational drivers would advise that is a beneficial technique, but would also go to lengths to explain the pros and cons and how it changes vehicle stability and dynamics, as well as risks to the tyres themselves. This technique would not be within the work requirements of the Emergency Services/Telstra/Electrical utilities/Rail Contractor to get out on site, so is not taught in the workplace.


But as to the other point raised, Is it LEGAL to drive with lower pressures, well that's a new one I haven't heard before.

How about the idea that police officers may have to drive at high speed to an emergency at a moment's notice, and if the tyres are under-inflated then it is a far greater risk at higher speeds. Airing up straight after the obstacle reduces the time the vehicle is not available for rapid response.

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Originally Posted by landy

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the trainers comments. But the point was that they teach air down only when necessary and air up once though the obstacle. As the beach is a gazetted road.

However to say that you think it's "not a large issue" to travel at 15psi for hundreds of kilometres gazillions of times is possibly the most irresponsible thing I have heard in a long time.



Nino.

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I drove nearly 2,000km at 18psi only recently.

What is your lack of experience/knowledge trying to claim with your statement above?

I recommend you gain a bit more experience and understanding before making such judgements.

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Originally Posted by 303gunner

Employers are now required to provide training for so many tasks and skills that in years gone by, the attitude would have been "You''ll be right, give it a go".


To advise "Operators" of 4wd vehicles not to air down would be a cautiously correct approach for drivers that are not enthusiasts or have a good understanding of the inherent risks and changes that result from that action. Any 4wd club training or commercial training outfit for recreational drivers would advise that is a beneficial technique, but would also go to lengths to explain the pros and cons and how it changes vehicle stability and dynamics, as well as risks to the tyres themselves. This technique would not be within the work requirements of the Emergency Services/Telstra/Electrical utilities/Rail Contractor to get out on site, so is not taught in the workplace.


But as to the other point raised, Is it LEGAL to drive with lower pressures, well that's a new one I haven't heard before.

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Actually it is part of their driver training for the groups you mention above.

I am friends with several commercial trainers and this is exactly what the SA Gov, Telstra, Gov workers working in Indigenous areas etc are all trained in before they are allowed to go remote.

The words legal and/or illegal are often misrepresented or at the very best, misinterpreted.
Most of us jump to the general conclusion that if it not legal then some big bad copper is going to seek us out and persecute us simply because we have broken the law. The press tells us that coppers are like that!
I would dare to say that every one of us possibly breaks at least one or two or more laws every day and do not get prosecuted for that fact.
The big problem arises when some unexpected thing goes horribly wrong and someone is hurt, maimed or worse still killed, then the legal eagles from every insurance company involved as well as every bleeding heart group, will do their damnedest to find someone responsible to hang out to dry, particularly if a pregnant woman or child is involved.
In that case scenario, any defect that can be proven or even hinted at as possibly being a cause will be brought to the fore and (especially if a 4WD or truck is involved) prosecuted and persecuted by not only the legal eagles, but also by the press.
In a case such as mentioned above, driving a vehicle with tyre pressures below the recommended pressure would possibly be seen as just as much a contributing factor by any Insurance company trying to find a loophole to get out of paying a massive damages claim as driving a vehicle with bald tyres, faulty steering or simply an unroadworthy vehicle.
Simply remember, it is not "what you know that you can do safely", it is what someone else who does not know you from a bar of soap "feels that you can do safely." 2 entirely different things.
Regards
Glen

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Originally Posted by Tombie

This isn't a bash the police exercise. It's about incorrect information.

There are errors in all professions, nobody can know everything, or they may misinterpret what they think.

In this case the trainer (who happens to be a former police officer) is incorrect.

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Hey Tombie,
I think that a lot of it is incorrect application (and interpretation) of the provided information.

Up until about 3 years ago, I was an SES 4WD Instructor and the AEM (Australian Emergency Management) Handbook we were issued to use as a training aid was based largely on Vietnam/Korean war era military training material when fancy things like radial tyres for 4WD's were just not around. Government Dept's being Government Dept's, I would imagine that similar vintage training material is still in use amongst all Government agencies at least in WA.

"Laws" relating to recommendations will always be open to interpretation and application. Unfortunately, common sense cannot be taught :(

I have spoken to 4WD instructors at my local Bushfire Brigade, and they are instructed to not air down at all as they do not have the time to re-inflate (something about orange hot stuff chasing them down) - the water tanks would make things a bit lively on the road with reduced tyre pressures. Each to their own..

From my example, the coppers did all things right except the most basic (determining the depth & walking/marking the route) .. now, had they increased tyre pressures, they may of floated across....:)

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Originally Posted by landy

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the trainers comments. But the point was that they teach air down only when necessary and air up once though the obstacle. As the beach is a gazetted road.
However to say that you think it's "not a large issue" to travel at 15psi for hundreds of kilometres gazillions of times is possibly the most irresponsible thing I have heard in a long time.

Nino.

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Wtf?

At the start of the CSR in Wiluna we all aired down. When we got to to the highway near Halls Ck we aired back up. Nearly 2000 km on low pressure.

Bugger driving over all those corrugations on full pressure!