Thread: when will it end, Israel v Palestine

i suppose there's some esoteric parallelism there, maybe that I missed it.
but no one in my family, or even my country I'm aware of). came with guns and an armored bulldozer and knocked anyones house down, or destroyed their livelihood. we're not talking about what happened 200 years ago, we're talking about whats happening now. FYI I don't have a house., but aboriginal claim to land is more legitimate than the new nazis land grab, claiming land rights a 1000 years later.

I have a vague recollection that the precursor to the "United Nations", the "League of Nations", were considering a part of Oz as a site for the new Israel. I'm sure they would have tried to "expand" here too.

What the Israel government is doing is an absolute disgrace... it's shocking. For a country full of people that vow to never forget the Jewish ghettos and holocaust to then so easily allow the same conditions on others.... they must be blind sick from fear.

Fireworks against high tech American tanks. The worst of it is the media are all towing line with the Israeli rhetoric. No one has the balls to call it an atrocity.... fighter jets bombing a walled off empoverished ghetto ffs!



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Originally Posted by manic

The worst of it is the media are all towing line with the Israeli rhetoric.

I missed those media reports. Please show where they are.

No one has the balls to call it an atrocity.... fighter jets bombing a walled off empoverished ghetto ffs!

It's a good example of deliberately "losing" for propaganda purposes.
When you can't win militarily, show how horrid the other side is.
It works, people sympathise just like they're meant to.

Originally Posted by simmo

no one in my family, or even my country I'm aware of). came with guns and an armored bulldozer and knocked anyones house down, or destroyed their livelihood. we're not talking about what happened 200 years ago, we're talking about whats happening now. FYI I don't have a house., but aboriginal claim to land is more legitimate than the new nazis land grab, claiming land rights a 1000 years later.

Sounds like you're having a bet each way.
It's nice to wash your hands of any responsibility, but another way to view our situation is that we are indeed responsible, in direct proportion to the advantages we still enjoy, for just not being black.

As pointed out above, the area has been fought over for millennia. Even back in prehistory, the Jewish state only existed for a few hundred years at a time. It became (successively) part of the Babylonian, Egyptian, Seleucid empires, then firmly Roman, with a good effort at genocide after they revolted in about 70AD (which led to dispersal of Jews throughout the Roman Empire). The area was overrun by Arabs in the seventh century, and became part of the Islamic caliphate. Occupied for a generation or more by Normans (and others) during the crusade, it was again taken over by the Islamic Caliphate, which in turn was taken over by the Turks.

This remained the situation until the end of WW1, when the entire area was divided into protectorates (France got Syria, Lebanon, Britain got Palestine, Iraq, Iran, by the victorious French and British as the Ottoman Empire was dismantled, and more or less independent Arab states were created in Trans-Jordan and Saudi Arabia, and the gulf emirates and other coastal emirates such as Oman; Britain retained Aden. Egypt and Sudan, which had already become more or less independent of Turkey remained under British influence. North African Ottoman states were shared out between France, Italy, and Spain.

Through all of this there had remained a significant Jewish population in what is now Israel (helped by Islamic tolerance of Jewish faith!), which was boosted by immigration starting in the nineteenth century from areas of persecution especially in Eastern Europe, and intensifying after the rise of the Nazi regime in the thirties.

After WW2, with the example of what had happened in Germany led to a further increase in Jewish immigration, despite the efforts of the British to stop it. In 1948, after much discussion with no results, Israel declared unilateral independence. The Arab League, primarily Egypt and Syria, called on the Arab population of the new Israel to leave so that they would not get hurt while the Jews were wiped off the face of the earth. Many of them did, forming the basis of the Gaza settlement. The war did not end as the League had intended, with Israel being well supplied with experienced military personnel from various combatants in WW2, and supplied with arms (clandestinely) by the USA and Soviet Union, both of which were happy to see their Jews go someplace else.

With the neighbouring Arab states generally refusing to even consider the possibility that Israel could exist, the period since has been a series of short wars (invariably won by Israel), with Israel grabbing some strategic territory each time (and Transjordan (now Jordan) taking a grab as well, leaving the only non-jewish remnant of the Palestinian Protectorate of the interwar period the Gaza strip and the "west bank", essentially those bit not wanted by either Israel, Jordan, Lebanon or Syria.

With this history, can anyone see any possibility of lasting peace? I can't.
Even without Israel, it is very unlikely that there would be peace.

John

Originally Posted by Jordan

It's a good example of deliberately "losing" for propaganda purposes.
When you can't win militarily, show how horrid the other side is.
It works, people sympathise just like they're meant to.

That's like saying the Jews deliberately allowed themselves to be put in concentration camps and gas chambers in a cunning ploy to cause international outrage. Ridiculous.

Hardline religious states are medieval.


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Originally Posted by JDNSW

...........

With this history, can anyone see any possibility of lasting peace? I can't.
Even without Israel, it is very unlikely that there would be peace.

John

good summary JD, thanks, but one of the main concerns is that they will turn to even more destructive WsMD to use

Originally Posted by manic

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Hardline religious states are medieval.

..

Quite right , but how on earth can people be encouraged to see this ? I used to have the hope that education, and increasing individual wealth would help achieve this ... but ...