Autonomous Vehicles

**tact** · 4th December 2017, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Eevo

if the operator has zero input, are they still an operator?

My thought exactly.... how can the passenger in an autonomous vehicle be held responsible for anything other than the maintenance of the vehicle such that it is in a roadworthy, registered and insured condition at all times on the road. (In the same way that the driver of a non-autonomous vehicle is held responsible for road worthiness etc).

If the vehicle is roadworthy, insured and registered, what is the difference between the passenger/owner of an autonomous vehicle and...:
- the passenger/owner of a vehicle being driven by a paid driver?
- the passenger/owner of a vehicle being driven by a third party (friend, relative, carjacker)?

In the above cases there is another driver to take blame/responsibility in an accident. Certainly not the passenger, even if the owner of the vehicle that is legal in all respects.

In the case of an autonomous vehicle, there is no "other driver" to take responsibility. But again I would argue that if the vehicle were fully legal in all respects - the "passenger" isn't at fault in an accident. This has to be clear and simple!

What is NOT clear is the problem of who to blame/hold responsible. And that is the problem to be solved by venerable and reasonable law makers.

Likely the way to resolve this is to do what we do with any other potentially dangerous unmanned situations involving machines (automated production lines, unmanned light rail etc...) - isolate these automated/unmanned machines from the general populace. Closed, restricted access work spaces. Fenced, restricted access, rail lines etc.

**bee utey** · 4th December 2017, 08:45 AM

The person or entity that last fiddled with the software is likely to be the one found to be at fault. Think VW and Dieselgate.

DiscoMick · 4th December 2017, 06:42 PM

The owner of the vehicle would be the one who made the decision to put it on the road.

**tact** · 4th December 2017, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by DiscoMick

The owner of the vehicle would be the one who made the decision to put it on the road.

And so he can expect rightly to be held liable for any unroadworthiness or unregistered or uninsured crimes against humanity that result should he climb aboard as passenger and give some command that results in an outing on public roads.

But ought he be charged/penalised for how the vehicle is driven when he is no more than a passenger? (Compare with the owner being chauffeured by a paid driver in his own car)

**Homestar** · 4th December 2017, 07:42 PM

I think this is one of the biggest legal roadblocks. No idea what the answer is, probably a large insurance premium one way or the other which at the end of the day the customer will pay for.

**tact** · 5th December 2017, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by bee utey

The person or entity that last fiddled with the software is likely to be the one found to be at fault. Think VW and Dieselgate.

Certainly open season for hackers to tweak their own, or other persons', vehicles. Will the future "revhead" be hunting for a black market software patch that will cause his autonomous vehicle to to have a higher "me first" score when it comes to his vehicle negotiating with other vehicles to see who does go first.

DiscoMick · 7th December 2017, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by tact

And so he can expect rightly to be held liable for any unroadworthiness or unregistered or uninsured crimes against humanity that result should he climb aboard as passenger and give some command that results in an outing on public roads.

But ought he be charged/penalised for how the vehicle is driven when he is no more than a passenger? (Compare with the owner being chauffeured by a paid driver in his own car)

I think the concern about whether the vehicle is operated or autonomous is a distraction.
If someone buys a tool - any tool, let's say a hot water heater, a TV or a chainsaw - and the user and maybe someone else is injured, who is held responsible? Is it the the user, the retailer or the manufacturer?

**Zeros** · 7th December 2017, 06:58 PM

I think it's highly unlikely that private vehicles will ever be 100% autonomous, making the 'driver' liable. Whether the driver pays attention in autonomous mode will be a risk the driver takes.

If it's a 100% autonomous taxi, or public vehicle of some kind, the provider will be liable. But I reckon that's a long way off.

Unlicenced TV driving is already a problem! 😜

**cuppabillytea** · 7th December 2017, 08:54 PM

The first entirely autonomous road vehicle will most likely be a "Driverless Bus". There's no holding the passengers to account in that instance.

**Eevo** · 7th December 2017, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by cuppabillytea

The first entirely autonomous road vehicle will most likely be a "Driverless Bus". There's no holding the passengers to account in that instance.

i think garbage truck.

Thread: Autonomous Vehicles

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