Thread: Big storm and no power in SA

Oh B.U... Your wit is knife sharp as always...
A wise decision to keep you side splitting humour contained... It would be totally unfair on the unsuspecting population to unleash such satire upon them...


Nice line in that article..
"Battery storage uses less footprint than has and doesn't pollute."
There's one of those false quotes again....
5-10 year cell life span, huge resources to produce, disposal requirements..
How about reporting no "operational" pollution - which is good...

What I'm keen to see is the WOL calculations.

You Keep on playing the meme card...It helps you to avoid the reality check that is the production of Lithium, volume mined vs yield (and associated tasks) - we're going to punch holes in the ground releasing far higher potential for PAF waste byproducts etc but it's "a green alternative"

You quote investment - well that's EXACTLY why we are in our current position.... Private investment is Capitalism... and with it comes cost and demand for growing returns. As the Cells need replacing regularly there will be ongoing cost which will need to be covered whilst making an investor return...

We will have cleaner(?) power with huge cost burden...

Easy for some Retiree sitting in the Hills to bang on about - happily enjoying everything you achieved during the time of cheap fossil fuelled power.

Except that isn't the reality for many out there, struggling to pay a simple power bill, make a living, raise a family... Or run a small business...

There are checks and balances...

Take an example: Vehicle EU emissions requirements..
They don't tell all old cars to stop working as a new EU std is introduced.. they just insist that all new vehicles meet the standards..

We could have applied that model to Power Generation... Mandated storage, Alternate sources etc and mandated a minimum capacity into the targets..

Instead, like many of the dreamers out there we went nameplate rating ( never achieved) and high risk...

Alternate energy; Great idea... extremely poorly managed and implemented.


I wanted to find another Meme for your personal enjoyment - so I Googled "Bee Utey" and hit "I'm feeling lucky" then clicked images...
Your favourite search engine returned this..

Clean coal isn't clean, just fractionally less dirty. Replacing coal with gas roughly halves emissions, while solar and wind eliminate them.
I see the reason we in Queensland shouldn't have blackouts this weekend is we have 1000 MW of solar reducing load on the ability of other generators in the system. Maybe other states need more solar?

I'm referring to using cleanER coal ONLY until the other technologies are in place and the grid is stable on those new technologies...


For the daylight periods Solar is excellent...
Problem is demand here remains high after the sun sets and the temperatures remain high until around 5:00am..

All the ACs are running but the Solar isn't providing - this is where those Battery banks come into play...

Originally Posted by Tombie

this is where those Battery banks come into play...

how much lithium in the world is there?

Originally Posted by Eevo

how much lithium in the world is there?

The quantities are very large - lithium is widespread, for example, seawater contains about 230 billion tonnes, but it is always present in low concentrations.

Published reserves worldwide are about 14 million tonnes, with annual production about 32,000 tonnes, showing reserves of close to 500 years.

But as with any mineral, it needs to be borne in mind that 'reserves' is the amount that is known and can be profitably mined at expected prices. Increase the prices, and reserves go up, both because known deposits currently not economically mineable become 'reserves', and because higher prices lead to more being looked for and discovered.

John

Originally Posted by Tombie

I'm referring to using cleanER coal ONLY until the other technologies are in place and the grid is stable on those new technologies...


For the daylight periods Solar is excellent...
Problem is demand here remains high after the sun sets and the temperatures remain high until around 5:00am..

All the ACs are running but the Solar isn't providing - this is where those Battery banks come into play...

Exactly. SA clearly managed (just) with existing gas generators all turned on but NSW with mainly black coal had to load shed the aluminium smelter that eats around 10% of their state's supply. Hopefully no lasting damage was done to the pot lines. From what I've read the smelter's contract for discounted power includes the right to load shed so they just have to suck it up.

One of the important things is stability, as you've noted, and currently only some big generators in SA are allowed to provide FCAS. Big batteries with smart electronics (or even distributed batteries with suitable smart inverters) will be able to do this too, but only once the NEM rules have been changed. Heck, even wind farms can be reconfigured to provide reactive power for short periods (yes yes, when the wind is blowing). Bureaucracy needs a bit of a kick up the bum, as usual. Batteries providing FCAS are already a done thing, especially in isolated island grids.

As to battery technology, it's important to note that lithium is just one technology that has gained ascendancy because of a small number of big manufacturers getting their **** together. Redflow, for example, has their successful flow batteries and is looking to expand into SE Asia with backup batteries for telecommunications towers. According to one report, they are favoured over lithium as they are bloody heavy therefore harder to steal than lithium batteries! Urea based batteries made the engineering news lately, if they turn out to be stable they'll run rings around lithium for cost. Time will tell but the rewards for cheap reliable batteries is huge. The cost curve still points downwards so as mass production ramps up they are likely to become "must have" accessories for every new solar system. And a fair few existing systems too.

I see Queensland and NSW have had more price spikes than SA when coal and gas producers game the market to inflate prices during periods when they are not facing competition from cheaper wind and solar. This again shows that price rises are caused by exploitation by fossil fuel generators putting private profits ahead of the public good.
If we're going to have a private power market-based system then it appears the way to minimise price rises is to get as much wind and solar power in as possible, including a rapid adoption of battery storage banks. That will limit the predatory practices of the coal generators.
The other option is to admit the market based system is a failure and nationalise the electricity industry as an essential service, which should make it more reliable.
I'm not ideologically biased either way - I just favour which ever system gives the best results for the public.

Bee Utey.. do you have a link or 2 on those Battery technologies?