Thread: Law & Order is STUFFED.

Originally Posted by incisor

what alternative do you suggest would work?

I'm not sure what the answer is Dave. Perhaps an elected committee similar to what Chops has proposed. Perhaps something along the lines of how the yanks do it (and I do not know exactly how their system works - just that they seem to impose more realistic sentences than we are seeing here).

The one thing that I do know for sure is that the system that we have in this country IS NOT WORKING. The judiciary here have been a joke for a long time now, and are becoming even more so as time goes by. They are totally out of touch with reality and community expectations, and would have to be about the only group of people in the country who do not seem to be accountable to anyone other than their peers for their poor decisions.

Make them accountable ................... put them up for election every so often (which is how I think the yank system works). If the general public is not happy with the way that they have been doing their job - give them the boot (and don't give them some life - long pension and other benefit such as ex-politicians get either).

There needs to be consequences for not doing your job - as there is in the private sector. In government, you can be a useless arsehole who achieves nothing, and what happens to you. OK - you get voted out, but if you have been in the job for long enough, you are set for life anyway so getting voted out is not really a disincentive to many of them. In the case of the judiciary though - they can't even be got rid of.

Originally Posted by ramblingboy42

I have a friend and a cousin who are currently police officers.

Having a chat over a few beers about their work sounds nothing like the tripe being aired here.

They have both seen and been involved in some quite horrible things as part of their job description and sitting quietly with them can be quite a morbid experience.

I suggest some of you guys get some first hand information and stop quoting newspapers or the radio jocks.

From my cousin and friend , there are NO quotas. There ARE focussed campaigns and raised public awareness towards certain areas..."targets".....but not on a quota basis.

I strongly disagree with that comment of no quotas, it's a definite there is. Tell ya cousin and mate to be totally honest with you.

Raised public awareness, laughable that means issue infringements.
Like I said before, stopping a driver who is traveling over the limit within reason and remind them to slow down and to be conscious for the rest of their journey would have a more positive impact on that drivers habits and attitudes, rather than penalise them.
Everyone travels at some point over the limit and you're full of **** if if you can't admit that, the last thing you need when you do happen to exceed that limit is a cop ready to issue an infringement.

I can confidently say I try to keep to the limit on my journeys and clocking up around 50K a year I drive more than the considered average but it is impossible to keep all limits just due to the fact of so many changed speed limits, I don't need a cop there hiding waiting to pounce especially when I have kept my speed through 98% of my journey.

Now I'm no Angel I have had a good infringement for a motorbike related incident and well it happened and I regret my actions but getting pinged for 10klm over is a joke, there is no way travelling 10klm over with our Nanny speed limits is in anyway dangerous or life threatening to me or other road users.

School zones I won't argue the point, this in my opinion are a good thing, they can be frustrating especially when they are in front of schools where there is no entrances or usage as they have back entries and not accessible from the main roads but hey we can't expect the people who do the planning of these limits to think now can we?

Ahhh grrrr look at me here I am ranting again, I got to stop this, I could go on forever about this **** but it won't change anything.
I'll keep my venting from here on in to the polling booths, Liberal Democrats ha ha ha

Ranting finished is it? Good, because most of what you have banged on about is a load of garbage. If there is one thing you can say about policing it is that there is nothing you can't say about policing. It is a very difficult job and no matter how long anyone spends doing it there is always a world of people, far removed from it, who know better how it should be done!

Consider this.

A married country couple leave their two children with the wife's mother and go to Melbourne for a weekend away. Dinner, shows the works, staying at a city hotel. Granny takes the two kids out for the day for a treat. They collide head on with a truck and all three are killed. Not only killed but totally incinerated.

Anyone here like to volunteer to spend several hours trying to locate where exactly the parents are staying.

Then go deliver the news.

Maybe you know how better that could be done.

Originally Posted by ramblingboy42

I have a friend and a cousin who are currently police officers.

Having a chat over a few beers about their work sounds nothing like the tripe being aired here.

They have both seen and been involved in some quite horrible things as part of their job description and sitting quietly with them can be quite a morbid experience.

I suggest some of you guys get some first hand information and stop quoting newspapers or the radio jocks.

From my cousin and friend , there are NO quotas. There ARE focussed campaigns and raised public awareness towards certain areas..."targets".....but not on a quota basis.

Rambling, what "tripe" are you talking about?
My feelings on this thread were that generally the very poor state of "Law & Order" that some of us have noticed, has NOTHING to do with the Police, who we feel very sympathetic to,...but it has everything to do with the judiciary,...who are making things very difficult for the Police to enforce anything, and I'm sure that NO-ONE would doubt that on occasions, they would experience some totally "morbid" & shocking things. That's a given.
Pickles.

Originally Posted by stealth

Ranting finished is it? Good, because most of what you have banged on about is a load of garbage. If there is one thing you can say about policing it is that there is nothing you can't say about policing. It is a very difficult job and no matter how long anyone spends doing it there is always a world of people, far removed from it, who know better how it should be done!



Consider this.



A married country couple leave their two children with the wife's mother and go to Melbourne for a weekend away. Dinner, shows the works, staying at a city hotel. Granny takes the two kids out for the day for a treat. They collide head on with a truck and all three are killed. Not only killed but totally incinerated.



Anyone here like to volunteer to spend several hours trying to locate where exactly the parents are staying.



Then go deliver the news.



Maybe you know how better that could be done.

What I said is not a load of garbage it's the truth, I'm not telling police HOW to do their jobs, simply raising valid issues of revenue raising by our government, would you like to tip toe around that or do you just want an opportunity to throw that scenario in of the grandmother and children.

No one is doubting that they experience and see things in their jobs on weekly basis that some of us will never experience, and that is why I said earlier I am pro police. I'm not an idiot I do understand what they have to deal with in their jobs. The Topic I raised is highway Patrol and revenue raising not old school policing of hey driver slow down.

If that was an actual event that you mentioned and not an example then I'm truly sorry for those losses, you haven't mentioned the facts of this incident but I don't think a driver travelling 10klm over the speed limit was the cause.

Just to reiterate, my Gripe is revenue raising by the government and using our police force to enforce it under the banner of road safety. I bet you agree with mobile speed cameras as well, yeah because they save lives don't they? Private companies placing vehicles with cameras strategically where they can catch drivers slightly exceeding limits.

Like I said I'm on the road more than the average vehicle owner, and I never see anyone speeding to the degree I could say that is dangerous, yes I see a few stupid things people do but most of the time you are bound by traffic, I go with the flow and just follow traffic most times and often I check my speed and I'm over, at no point have I or the traffic flowing at same speed is endangering public.

Most of the road deaths are contributing by drivers under the influence, high speeds and mobile phones.

No can argue the point that texting is not dangerous, how about real policing and target texting, I ride as well and it ****es me off the amount of people texting, they are all over the road, targeting texting drivers saves lives not pinging someone 10klm over a nanny speed limit. Wake up! Government wants one thing MONEY just remember just like the police are a tool for the government the government is a tool for a central bank. That's my gripe because at the end of the day it is us who pays.

Babs, I see your argument but we also need to look at why 'we' are in the position of fines and revenue.

Yes, the Government wants/needs money and there's a stack of taxes and fees that are a disgrace - Stamp Duty, Payroll Tax, vehicle registration/road tax, fuel excise and so on. Equally they spend that revenue on crap that benefits very few.

Speed cameras and School Zones are both crap - if they wanted to address the problems with schools, build proper drop off zones/tunnels/bridges to keep the kids off the road. But no, stopping the problem doesn't provide an ongoing argument for cameras ($$).

Fines were introduced as a deterrent, and an option to being put before a Court to then receive a penalty - usually financial to again serve as a deterrent. Cautions and 'slow down fella' do not work, are inequitable, and are a subjective test applied by an individual. We need to have a standard and one that is applied impartially - we can't have one part being the 'happy police' and the other doing the unpleasant stuff. They're the cops. They're supposed to do the things no one else wants to do, to be the enforcer, the easy one to dislike.

The revenue from penalty notices has dropped massively in the last 5 years, largely due to a restructure within the police. This is in part due to stupid WHS policies and ineffective deployment of staff. There are tangible outcomes when police stop going to places and jamming people for breaking laws - offences rise, and in traffic matters people get dead. The road toll is where it is because of tasking and deployment.

The penalty notice gives you an option - to pay the bill, write away requesting a caution (based on your good driving record), or go to court and let them decide. Yes, all of those options are a bit onerous, but that's the options. If someone has a good record (last five years are clean) then they'll probably get a caution, if not go to court and become (what people defending matters are known as) 'a punter'.

Its easy to say, but fines are voluntary, and its true. Yes we all speed, but thats a chance you take - get caught and expect a smack.

Speeding in itself is not dangerous, its against a law and thats where the cops are expected to enforce the law. If the outcome is revenue, well so be it. The judiciary have the final say, so maybe if they held up their end of the bargain there really would be a deterrent to breaking the law (any law), but I won't hold my breath there...

By the way, there are no quotas. Seriously, tell someone to go out and book xx number of people?? What if they don't. Then what? Do they get punished. The first thing they would do is hit up 2gb or a Current Affair or some other quality organisation to have a bleat. It doesn't happen. There are plenty of idiots on the road doing stuff to fill in someones day if they want it. You don't go fish'in where they're ain't no fish.

Originally Posted by mudmouse

Babs, I see your argument but we also need to look at why 'we' are in the position of fines and revenue.



Yes, the Government wants/needs money and there's a stack of taxes and fees that are a disgrace - Stamp Duty, Payroll Tax, vehicle registration/road tax, fuel excise and so on. Equally they spend that revenue on crap that benefits very few.



Speed cameras and School Zones are both crap - if they wanted to address the problems with schools, build proper drop off zones/tunnels/bridges to keep the kids off the road. But no, stopping the problem doesn't provide an ongoing argument for cameras ($$).



Fines were introduced as a deterrent, and an option to being put before a Court to then receive a penalty - usually financial to again serve as a deterrent. Cautions and 'slow down fella' do not work, are inequitable, and are a subjective test applied by an individual. We need to have a standard and one that is applied impartially - we can't have one part being the 'happy police' and the other doing the unpleasant stuff. They're the cops. They're supposed to do the things no one else wants to do, to be the enforcer, the easy one to dislike.



The revenue from penalty notices has dropped massively in the last 5 years, largely due to a restructure within the police. This is in part due to stupid WHS policies and ineffective deployment of staff. There are tangible outcomes when police stop going to places and jamming people for breaking laws - offences rise, and in traffic matters people get dead. The road toll is where it is because of tasking and deployment.



The penalty notice gives you an option - to pay the bill, write away requesting a caution (based on your good driving record), or go to court and let them decide. Yes, all of those options are a bit onerous, but that's the options. If someone has a good record (last five years are clean) then they'll probably get a caution, if not go to court and become (what people defending matters are known as) 'a punter'.



Its easy to say, but fines are voluntary, and its true. Yes we all speed, but thats a chance you take - get caught and expect a smack.



Speeding in itself is not dangerous, its against a law and thats where the cops are expected to enforce the law. If the outcome is revenue, well so be it. The judiciary have the final say, so maybe if they held up their end of the bargain there really would be a deterrent to breaking the law (any law), but I won't hold my breath there...



By the way, there are no quotas. Seriously, tell someone to go out and book xx number of people?? What if they don't. Then what? Do they get punished. The first thing they would do is hit up 2gb or a Current Affair or some other quality organisation to have a bleat. It doesn't happen. There are plenty of idiots on the road doing stuff to fill in someones day if they want it. You don't go fish'in where they're ain't no fish.

mudmouse extremely well written, better than I could put it. Some valid ideas there.

Still have to disagree on the quotas, it's not documented though they are expected to issue a certain amount of infringements.

Here is an idea all money raised by road incidents put back into the community for the above mentioned propositions with regards to schools. Until people wake up and realise who is really running the country and where our taxes are going and why they are so high then nothing will change. I'll save that one for a different thread.

Originally Posted by Babs

mudmouse extremely well written, better than I could put it. Some valid ideas there.

Still have to disagree on the quotas, it's not documented though they are expected to issue a certain amount of infringements.

Here is an idea all money raised by road incidents put back into the community for the above mentioned propositions with regards to schools. Until people wake up and realise who is really running the country and where our taxes are going and why they are so high then nothing will change. I'll save that one for a different thread.

I've got a better idea,,, how about perants and teachers taking responsibility and teaching kids,, as we were taught,, to just stay off the ****ing road,,, Look Left, Look Right, and Left again.