Landcruiser & Caravan Rollover - Badly loaded ??

Heading for Perth, down Albany highway, between Bannister and top of Bedfordale hill, near the S bends where the old Coachstop ruins are... Caravan and 4wd upside down, mum and dad and 3 kids in back seat... All brand new, never towed before, loaded everything including kitchen sink, now upside down and spread over 100 metres down the centre of the highway... On ly good thing to happen, no one hurt...

Cars could get past but me and another 20 compardreys stuck for about 4 hours... Drank a few cups of tea waiting...

Seen quite a few trailer towing incidents whilst on the roads, not always a lack of experience, sometimes stupidity is the cause even with experienced nig nogs...

Somebody quoted tonnages on axles with trucks and GVM... WA rules without Extra Mass permit, 6.00 t with standard 22.5 tyres, 6.50 t with 295 and 6.70 t with super singles...
22.5 t for the prime mover take 6 leaves 16.5 t over drives...

Extra mass permit increases drive to 17.5 t and a fups bar increase .2 I think(never had one so not sure for FUPS)...

Our bogie dollies with Extra Mass is also 17.5...

Tri combo's are different again, standard 20 t, level 1 = 21.5, level 2 = 22.5 and level 3 = 23.5... Thus the truck pic I have for my Avatar is single steer and all tri groups... I could load to 53 tonne on the lead trailer and 47 tonne on the dog....

Going into Perth with that weight is fun with car drivers, a real pleasure having to avoid situations that shouldnt happen and cars trying to push me out of the way or abusing me because I needed most of the road to turn off welshpool road onto railway parade in Bentley(look on google earth, west on welshpool, left into railway parade while crossing railway line)...

Anyway, back to the vans... Truck drivers stage up with there licenses, ie car but no truck until no P plate, then LR, MR or HR(thats no trailer on any) then you can go for HC or even MC... ( I have issues with a HR licensed driver going for MC)...

That may sound like a complex way to get your license, but there is no requirement for you to show experience to get a higher class license, just waiting time and ability to drive... For a MC license, you need to be able to reverse a B-double 75 metres.. sounds hard for some but believe me, b-doubles are easy... What annoys the crap out of me is drivers get an MC then jump into roadtrains like an expert and start telling others how good they are...

Our licensing laws for truck drivers changed around 2000, they where meant to improve the industry and standardise it... All its done is shove out the old school drivers and bring more steering wheel attendants online... Drug usage is probably still the same(not a lot use but its there still)... As for improving the skill on the road, not much has changed, still a lot who cant reverse to save themselves and still a lot of experts with no experience...

Now if you want to change laws in regards to towing ie towing endorsement or the like, take note, it didnt improve truck drivers... I have seen drivers take off from roadtrain assembly areas and leave half of what was behind them, in the middle of the road(and thats happened within 500 metres of the assembly area)...


PS, I was turned down for working for a big company because I dont use the word Linehaul(its American for long distance) and I didnt have a resume... Funny because the bloke that put my name up, I taught truck driving to, over 20 years ago... Go figure hey...

There are lots of thoughts about stopping swaying, if it gets back under control, well done, but dont say you can control it by speeding up, stabbing brakes etc, if you have electric brakes then put them on, all the way if you have to and accelerate at the same time... at the end of the day, once it starts swaying your out of control! If you regain control, well done...

This is also the same way you can stop a jack knife situation with a semi, hit the trailer brakes then use the accelerator and it will straighten up... I have had these situations a few times over the last 30 years and it scares the bejesus out of me... Even slid a primemover and tipper side ways for about 200 metres(too much wet clay on a downhill slope and too much speed on my part)...

Are we all experts, NAH just more nuts behind the wheel hoping to get from A to B as safe and stupidly as we can... Anyway I'll climb back into my box now...

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Originally Posted by bee utey

That would have to be most useless theory ever. If for some reason you get into trailer sway when travelling downhill towards an intersection, accelerating is certain tragedy.The only thing to do is stamp on the brake pedal repeatedly at the exact moments when the sway is just starting to return to centre. That technique washes speed off quickly while counteracting the sway as it's happening, but your timing had better be good. It's saved my bacon a couple of times on my poorly thought out youthful towing trips with over ride brakes.

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The example you use of a down hill slope and coming up to a intersection is a rare one as i as a professional driver would have washed off most of my speed before starting to descend.
The problem lays in what you just said, you dont have the knowledge or the set of skills required to be towing. Anyone of my tuck and dog drivers will tell you that if the dog trailer starts dancing accelerating IS ONE of the tools you can use to bring it back centre. The best tool of all is being alert amd stopping it before it happens.

Its probably why they do 12 hrs driving per day, 5 days per week, and we've never had an accident. They know how to drive but more importantly have the skillset required for what they do

If it starts swaying I'd be more inclined to brake than accelerate. Going faster would just get you into trouble faster, wouldn't it?
Of course, I'm not a truck driver and only tow a camper.

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Originally Posted by V8Ian

Probably a bit late, you're no doubt competent now. The point being made is that a newly licenced driver is legally entitled to tow a heavy outfit without further training.

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How do you know I'm competent?? Given some of the posters comments i would fal into the category of what's he doing on the road, I shouldn't be towing, not aware of weight and setup, just got his license, never towed a trailer before, has no idea,no experience, he only has a car license, can he reverse a trailer.


I don't see many 18yo (newly licensed) having the cash to buy a 3T caravan or boat, see younger ones with camper trailer and smaller boats.......I would say most caravan owners have been driving for quite some time.

Strangely our company doesn't do VOC on driving or towing.......although I try and advise who should and should tow these trailers but....anyway when somebody asked what to you mean by overrun brakes I figured I should spend some time with them giving them a heads up

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Originally Posted by johntins

Can't see the point of this post. Do you think you are capable of towing this trailer? Do you think the car/van/whatever is capable of towing it? Do you think we should accept your decision on these questions, when our lives depend on YOUR choice? Nobody accepts MY ability to drive something out of the ordinary, but I should accept yours?
I have always enjoyed your posts, weeds. I think that you are probably, based on what I've read, a smart operator who can do many things. This makes ME an idiot. Some bloke I met on a forum? How stupid is that??

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I don't really see the point of your post either......just pointing out that you paint us all with the same brush.

If you don't accept my or other drivers decisions on towing than I'm unsure how we can get round that.

One of the most dangerous thing we all do is hop behind the wheel.

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Originally Posted by johntins

That's the prevailing opinion, certainly. I would prefer to have user operated trailer brakes to pull the thing back into line. Whichever, it's another reason to have training and endorsements. It's amazing how many people think attaching more than three tonnes of van or boat to the back of their car won't change it's driving characteristics, truly amazing.

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I'm not sure we have an option in Australia,, dont all brake controllers (in OZ) have a manual overide function?

I find it amazing people square off against caravan owners just because they see an accident involving one,, (from another country!!!) and AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME driver error,,

just plain old vanilla car drivers NEVER EVER **** up,,,

Dash Cam Owners Australia
- YouTube

I've been living and working in outback Oz for the last ten years, I've just come back from a month up North and nothing changes year from year,the roads are choked with grey nomads driving seriously overloaded vehicles doing 80,with a line of vehicles stuck behind them. In the last 4 weeks 6 retiree's were admitted with serious medical issue's requiring them to be flown back to Perth, these's are people who have spent the previous weeks behind the wheel of combinations that weigh over 6T, is that safe?. Talking to their wives most have only just bought their rigs, so they have gone from a 1400kg Camry to a 6.5T comination with zero experience, again are they competent to drive?. I also have an issue with GVM upgrades, if a 200 series can safely handle 3800kg why does it need an upgrade?, they cannot be sold in Europe because they do not meet the minimal safety standard in regards to braking but over here they can have their payload increased 500kg with no brake upgrade, one company is offering a 4000kg upgrade still from what I know without a brake upgrade, they cannot pass at standard wieght be we are making them heavier. If your look at the D4 it can pass everything, but it gets rubbished for having larger rims allowing the fitment of bigger brakes and has sway control from the factory but the wobblies won't buy it, instead they do GVM upgrades combined with WDH's. From my experience I feel that many people are against supplementary license's for the simple reason that they won't pass the test if required. Pat

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Originally Posted by weeds

Don't realize it was in America.....

Driver could have fell asleep, had a medical issue

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The wash from the overtaking "SUV" seems to have been the catalyst. You can see as it overtakes the van, the pressure seems to push the van away and then sucks it back as the pass is completed. From there the driver over corrects, exacerbating the sway.

I agree with John(JDNSW) that licensing for all this is not the answer. The administration of such as system would be expensive and bureaucratic. Proper policing of setups as per DMs suggestion is a more practical approach which seems to be on the cards anyway as per the post some time ago about a Vic copper running an "education program" for caravaners et al (you posted that didn't you Weeds?).

PS if they were towing with a D4 the event would likely have been avoided due to its "Trailer Stability Control" feature:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy4vfcX_BrU

John, if an endorsement for towing ever got traction, it would not effect you.
Licences in Queensland used to be classed -
A_Car.
B_Motor Cycle.
C_Rigid Truck.
D_Any Omnibus.
E_Any Articulated Vehicle.
Other states had a numeric system but nationally the classes aligned.

Sometime in the eighties Queensland introduced E6, that became Road Train. Anybody who could provide evidence of experience was upgraded. My proof was the rego papers for my prime mover.
Existing licenced car drivers would be granted similar, if not automatic rights to tow a trailer.
I don't believe small, box trailers need an endorsement.

As an interesting aside, shortly after introducing the class E6, Queensland initiated an E4 for a B Double. At the time every class a driver was eligible to drive had to be listed in the licence.
Mine was thus-
A
B
C
D
E : E6

For three years QT refused to issue me with an E4 as I hadn't been trained to drive a B Double. I was qualified to drive a 50 metre long vehicle with five articulation points, weighing 90 tonnes but not an 18 metre long vehicle weighing 55 tonne with two articulation points.
Three years later licences were standardised, nationally. E4 and E6 were combined under the new classification Multi-combination (MC) with the only recognised training done at Mt, Cotton (Q) and Shepperton (V). That training was B Double focused yet graduates were qualified to drive triple Road Trains. Heaven only knows how many newbies got out in the back blocks and tipped the last trailer over due to inexperience.

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Originally Posted by Pedro_The_Swift

Dash Cam Owners Australia
- YouTube

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They've already lost their caravans. [wink11]