Thread: Landcruiser & Caravan Rollover - Badly loaded ??

Originally Posted by Pedro_The_Swift

I'm not sure we have an option in Australia,, dont all brake controllers (in OZ) have a manual overide function?

They do, but they are useless. Trucks (real ones) have a foot long trailer brake lever ergonomically mounted on the steering column, allowing controlled, progressive trailer braking. Girly trucks have a dash mounted lever to serve the same purpose but lacking the finesse of the previous mentioned. Cars have a slide that operated over 1 1/2 - 2", mounted awkwardly under the dash, that is for all intents and purposes, on or off. When we got the A'Van I searched for a unit that could be operated with a reasonable degree of control, nothing came close.

Originally Posted by Eevo

i dont agree.
education through licencing is more effective than education thought enforcement.

Or incident.

I think when first registering a caravan over a certain size which has been purchased the person should be required to do a one-day workshop and/or online course on basic towing safety (similar to the boating workshops required as part of getting a boat licence) or demonstrate they have prior experience (RPL) within a reasonable time period.
Issues such as the suitability of the towing vehicle, loading, backing and emergency control should be covered. For example, demonstrate you are competent to back that caravan into that space. Weigh that caravan and check the towball weight.
We have online courses for getting a licence, first aid and workplace health and safety, so why not for towing?
This would be basic education. I have seen a lot of vans being towed by vehicles which appear to be to be inadequate to do the job. For example, last weekend I saw a RAV4 towing a dual axle caravan. The owners probably thought they were OK. I thought it was dangerous, particularly since the Toyota's bum was way down near the road. I would have been cautious about towing the van because of its size, even though my Defender is an excellent tow vehicle and even has rear airbags, so a RAV4 was definitely not up to the job, I thought.

I also think there should be close study of whether anti-sway should be mandatory on caravans over a certain size.

Mick, in relation to sway bars, they should be mandatory... What you asked about braking when swaying, the answer no, accelerate takes the control from the trailer to the towing vehicle and will give you steerage...

One of the things that hasn't been pointed out, swaying is the effect of the trailer steering the towing vehicle.. once the trailer starts pushing it takes control thus it will steer the rear of the towing vehicle... Only way to stop it properly is to introduce drag on the trailer thus allowing the towing vehicle to regain control... Ian pointed out there is no brake controller out there that is close to what we have in trucks, thats true but electrics is probably the closest to the hand controller on a truck, but how many know how to use one properly...

Ian, one thing you didnt point out, most truck have the centre of the hitch forward of the drive axle centre, anywhere from 2 inch to 12 inch on bogies and more for tri- drives... The exception is car carriers or setups similar to them where the hitch is behind the drives, this also is driven differently to a standard setup prime mover as anyone who has carted cars with this arrangement will tell you, its different to drive... In relation to a prime mover, you would know that in paddock work where you need traction and no pushing of the prime mover by the trailers, you set the centre of the pin only 2 inch's forward of the drive, thus you have full control of steerage and max weight on drive... If you set it 9 inch forward you get good weight distribution but its a pig in soft ground and any weight pushing will steer the truck some and help you get stuck...

One point also missed is that caravans are larger than towing vehicles(unless your like some of the ex truckies I know that went caravaning, 3 to 5 tonne dodges and the likes, workshop on the tray and van to keep the miss's happy).. you have a big box, wider than the vehicle towing it, and huge sail area on either side, vehicle in front with soft suspension and no ability to stabilise such a large force behind and the hitch behind the axle... Good recipe for a problem... Chuck sway bars on, and if not set properly, a waste of money... Weight distribution is another problem and any trucky should know this as it applies to every load we cart... Single axle vans have a mind of there own and dual axle can be a greater issue if too much weight is off the hitch...

In reality, it dont matter what you tow, if you dont set it up properly, have a bit of experience and show a lot of caution, then someone is going to get hurt....education doesnt give you experience that only comes from doing the job you want achieve... So start with a smaller van and work your way up, nop license change, no courses, just a lot of time and caution will keep you safe... Pity we cant get everyone to be like that but start some where, even here will do...

Originally Posted by V8Ian

They do, but they are useless. Trucks (real ones) have a foot long trailer brake lever ergonomically mounted on the steering column, allowing controlled, progressive trailer braking. Girly trucks have a dash mounted lever to serve the same purpose but lacking the finesse of the previous mentioned.

I have to agree, the volvo dash mounted trailer brakes are stupid, left hand side of steering... I drove one a few years back, couldnt wait to get out of the cab.. Was also my first and last auto truck I drove... Trip up took 5 hours in auto mode, while having a cuppa after swapping trailers, I read the manual(something I never do normally), drove home in manual mode, took under 3 hours, about the same amount of time the old freightliner does(old tin cab)... Now if we could get a system for cars that bolts to the steering column, just like a truck, then that would help a lot of people...

Originally Posted by Wraithe

Mick, in relation to sway bars, they should be mandatory... What you asked about braking when swaying, the answer no, accelerate takes the control from the trailer to the towing vehicle and will give you steerage...

One of the things that hasn't been pointed out, swaying is the effect of the trailer steering the towing vehicle.. once the trailer starts pushing it takes control thus it will steer the rear of the towing vehicle... Only way to stop it properly is to introduce drag on the trailer thus allowing the towing vehicle to regain control... Ian pointed out there is no brake controller out there that is close to what we have in trucks, thats true but electrics is probably the closest to the hand controller on a truck, but how many know how to use one properly...

Ian, one thing you didnt point out, most truck have the centre of the hitch forward of the drive axle centre, anywhere from 2 inch to 12 inch on bogies and more for tri- drives... The exception is car carriers or setups similar to them where the hitch is behind the drives, this also is driven differently to a standard setup prime mover as anyone who has carted cars with this arrangement will tell you, its different to drive... In relation to a prime mover, you would know that in paddock work where you need traction and no pushing of the prime mover by the trailers, you set the centre of the pin only 2 inch's forward of the drive, thus you have full control of steerage and max weight on drive... If you set it 9 inch forward you get good weight distribution but its a pig in soft ground and any weight pushing will steer the truck some and help you get stuck...

One point also missed is that caravans are larger than towing vehicles(unless your like some of the ex truckies I know that went caravaning, 3 to 5 tonne dodges and the likes, workshop on the tray and van to keep the miss's happy).. you have a big box, wider than the vehicle towing it, and huge sail area on either side, vehicle in front with soft suspension and no ability to stabilise such a large force behind and the hitch behind the axle... Good recipe for a problem... Chuck sway bars on, and if not set properly, a waste of money... Weight distribution is another problem and any trucky should know this as it applies to every load we cart... Single axle vans have a mind of there own and dual axle can be a greater issue if too much weight is off the hitch...

In reality, it dont matter what you tow, if you dont set it up properly, have a bit of experience and show a lot of caution, then someone is going to get hurt....education doesnt give you experience that only comes from doing the job you want achieve... So start with a smaller van and work your way up, nop license change, no courses, just a lot of time and caution will keep you safe... Pity we cant get everyone to be like that but start some where, even here will do...

Thanks for that. A non-trucker's question: If the caravan has brakes, then wouldn't braking the towing vehicle and also the caravan stabilise the caravan to reduce the swaying about?

Originally Posted by DiscoMick

Thanks for that. A non-trucker's question: If the caravan has brakes, then wouldn't braking the towing vehicle and also the caravan stabilise the caravan to reduce the swaying about?

Only if you have the electric brakes set to a point where it is producing more braking than the towing vehicle... You have to create pulling apart pressure on the hitch so the trailer is not pushing in any way.... Its this pushing action that allows the trailer to steer the towing vehicle...

PS override brakes only apply when braking pressure is applied to the hitch, thus the trailing braking is less than the vehicle towing... Pretty rare to get them to drag the towing vehicle to a halt, and if it does, then there is something wrong... I have that system on my horse float, its ok but then I rebuilt my float and set it up, only problem is if I needed to stop quickly, it wont...(helps to keep the horses standing rather than in the front with me...)

Originally Posted by Wraithe

Only if you have the electric brakes set to a point where it is producing more braking than the towing vehicle... You have to create pulling apart pressure on the hitch so the trailer is not pushing in any way.... Its this pushing action that allows the trailer to steer the towing vehicle...

My controller is set so the camper trailer and vehicle are braking about the same. So wouldn't braking mean they would both come to move at the same speed?
Actually, I should explain the Tekonsha P6 has a display which shows increasing braking effort from 1-5, so the harder I push it the harder the trailer brakes. If I bang the brakes really hard I can lock up the trailer wheels before the Defender. I assumed that steady braking, not over-reacting, would have settled the whole situation down, but I haven't experienced that situation in a truck.
Yes, I know a camper trailer is a lot lighter (about 1300 kg) than a caravan or big trailer. I also know a Defender is a lot more stable than many other vehicles.