Another snatch strap death

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Originally Posted by rammypluge

If we cant reach some level of consensus here that we should take a stance against snatching, and stand in favour of tow and winch recoveries, then nothing much is changing.

The culture of snatching and seeing it as safe enough will continue. Then the next person will die, because people have given them the impression it is safe enough. Then the next person will die.

What would you say to their family?

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I am Not completely against snatch recoveries But I do see them as a "Last resort" option and they should only be attempted by trained and competent people that know the risks and can do everything possible to make the snatch recovery as Safe as possible and only AFTER every other recovery option has failed which is highly unlikely.
At the moment every Tom, Dick and harry has a snatch strap in their toolbox and the Vast majority of them have very little idea of how to minimise the very real risks involved in using them
There seems to be a general misconception that the use of a snatch strap is the Best method in a recovery and that there really isn't that much danger involved and it is also usually the first recovery method to be tried on a bogged vehicle.
You would be surprised at how many people have a snatch strap in their toolbox and yet they don't even carry a shovel with them.

My favourite recovery thread:

Ellis Track (warbt Trip - Hard) 15/16 April

Post #4.

cheers, DL

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Originally Posted by trout1105

[...snatch recovery is safe, just has risks attached (tombie)]
I disagree.

A snatch recovery is an "Inherently" dangerous procedure, If it isn't then why is it that the majority of deaths and injuries always seem to be associated with this type of recovery and not other methods of recovery?
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You argue to eliminate, not mitigate, the risks of snatch recovery accidents. You argue to use "safer" means of recovery instead of snatching. These two thoughts are not compatible. Why?:

- Moving from snatching to winching, or even to shovels, jacks, and maxtraxx WILL eliminate all risks of injury from snatch recoveries if there are no more snatch recoveries. Sure.

- But it does NOT remove ALL risk of injury or death! Every type of recovery method has its risks/dangers attached, including risks of serious injury or death. Thus moving away from snatch recoveries is in itself just a mitigation. People are still going to get hurt or killed. (Just not by snatch recoveries).

People were getting hurt by hilift jacks and steel wire rope long before snatch straps were popular.

If you are thinking that snatch recoveries are the most risky, so it will improve things if this means of recovery is deprecated or eliminated - perhaps think about this: the idiots getting hurt doing snatch recoveries, not reading instructions, not getting trained, the stupid drunk showoffs you categorise as those doing snatch recoveries:
- you reckon they are going to do much better with a winch?
- you trust them to give you a tow?
- you'd put a hilift jack in their hands and walk away with a clear conscience?
- I wouldn't be near them if they had shovels in their hands
- mercy please if they got hold of a chainsaw

Facts are facts.... there are safe ways to use tools and machines, snatch straps included. People get hurt when unskilled or uneducated about the safe use.

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Originally Posted by tact

Facts are facts.... there are safe ways to use tools and machines, snatch straps included. People get hurt when unskilled or uneducated about the safe use.

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i agree. so why more snatch deaths?
cause snatches are more common than winches
why? because a snatch costs $50 vs winch installed at $1000

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Originally Posted by trout1105

Now you are just being Silly.
Theoretically every driver has been trained and there are laws and rules in place to mitigate accidents, This cannot be said about the use of snatch straps.



I disagree.
A snatch recovery is an "Inherently" dangerous procedure, If it isn't then why is it that the majority of deaths and injuries always seem to be associated with this type of recovery and not other methods of recovery?
"Mitigating" risks is a good thing But "Eliminating" them is a far better option, This you have to agree with and if you can eliminate the need to use a snatch strap during a recovery then you haven't merely "Mitigated" the risk you have "Eliminated it. [thumbsupbig]
If you look at the recovery gear that far too many people carry you will find that they usually only have a snatch strap on board and 9 times out of ten they don't even carry "Rated" bow shackles because Snatching seems to be being promoted as the First line of defence when it comes to recoveries and this is the only piece of recovery equipment that they think they need to carry.
Like Rammypluge stated there should be an education process teaching that a snatch recovery is an inherently dangerous procedure ( Especially in inexperienced hands) and that there are other "Safer" methods of recovery available.

I agree that IF all the kit is in good order and Both drivers have the experience then a snatch recovery can be achieved But even then it is Not completely without Risk.
Yes a snatch recovery is Fast, needs less equipment to be bought/used and is physically easier to do But it is most certainly NOT the Safest recovery method.
Promoting the use of snatch straps to novice 4WD drivers is irresponsible especially when there are Far safer methods of recovery available.

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Sorry, but under the hierarchy of controls you don’t offer elimination - you’re offering substitution, with an equally risky process.

Winching recoveries are subject to shock loading, require secure, rated attachment points on the vehicle the hook is being attached to and a requirement for exclusion zones and correct handling procedures are just as critical.

It’s can also much harder to be certain that the winch and it’s cable is mechanically sound.

In the world of mining (WH&S extreme) Kinetic strap recoveries are used - with a slight change in methodology.


The Crux of it all is “Vehicle recovery is hazardous”
That is the core of it.

Are people suggesting that to solve the problem we legislate that all snatch straps sold must come with a paid up training course voucher, and a set of recovery points?

If you tell people they need to do a training course and fit recovery points to be able to use a snatch strap, they might decide instead to buy a winch.

If 4wders dont solve the problem, the government will, and i wont have any sympathy for the guys that complain of overregulation, which i also abhorr.

And then, if they buy a winch...
What course do you propose they then do?
Winching is can be extremely hazardous.

What you propose is over regulation.

Irony?

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Originally Posted by Tombie

And then, if they buy a winch...
What course do you propose they then do?
Winching is can be extremely hazardous.

What you propose is over regulation.

Irony?

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What rammypluge is suggesting is "Education" so that there will be No need for "Regulation".
Yes winching can be hazardous But No where near as dangerous as yanking out another vehicle that weighs 2-3 tones doing 10-20kph and hoping that everything holds together.[bigwhistle]

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Originally Posted by trout1105

What rammypluge is suggesting is "Education" so that there will be No need for "Regulation".
Yes winching can be hazardous But No where near as dangerous as yanking out another vehicle that weighs 2-3 tones doing 10-20kph and hoping that everything holds together.[bigwhistle]

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try using second gear, can go a lot faster

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Originally Posted by Eevo

i agree. so why more snatch deaths?
cause snatches are more common than winches
why? because a snatch costs $50 vs winch installed at $1000

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Fair comment. So (lets hypothetically) burn/ban all snatch straps and make it so there is no option but get a $1000 winch fitted. Do you really expect all those snatch deaths to go to zero, and not see a corresponding increase in deaths by inappropriate use of winches?

Really?