Everest: ethics and mountain climbing

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Originally Posted by VladTepes

Call me old fashioned but I don't beleive there is ANY excuse for stepping over a dying innocent man, be he fool-hardy or otherwise, and failing to render assistance just so you get to climb a hill. Or a mountain. Or THE mountain.




Heck, just think even how you feel when your wife breaks down in traffic and people don't stop to help.

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Hmm... Completely different at 29,000 ft where it is still down to the basic instincs of survival of the fittest. Remember, if you're in the Death Zone, you're dying. The longer you stay, the greater the chances of never coming down.

The guy that died the other day was already effectively dead. His body was frozen and even if they could help, he would have been dead in minutes. Remember also, that even if they got his body down the mountain... There's still no chance of an airlift as helecopters can't get up that high, the air is just too thin. (OK... Before some smart **** corrects me... There is a helecopter that can get to that altitude but to do so it can't actually carry anything!!!)

I think you'll find that most (if not all) climbers would stop & help but most climbers I know are also realists... If there's no chance of saving someone, move on & save yourself.

M

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Originally Posted by VladTepes

Call me old fashioned but I don't beleive there is ANY excuse for stepping over a dying innocent man, be he fool-hardy or otherwise, and failing to render assistance just so you get to climb a hill. Or a mountain. Or THE mountain.




Heck, just think even how you feel when your wife breaks down in traffic and people don't stop to help.

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But do you agree 2 dead people are better than 1. Even in first aid, the first principle is Danger, and protecting yourselves for this very reason. 1 dead person is better than 2.

I understand your sentiments, but Everest is a different ball game.

From chatting to people that are into this type of thing, and pole expeditions etc, the problem is that over that altitude you are not necessarily at your finest for decision making either, and there are a lot of people that lose that rational factor in the urgency to make their window of opportunity to summit and make the tragic decision to continue. The man was frozen 300m from the summit, he clearly was going to summit if it was the last thing he did.

There is a "process" in hospital emergency departments called Triage whereby patients are assessed for the severity of their condition...those with a life threatening condition are treated before those with say a sprained ankle...well derr you say.

I think the term came originally from battlefield hospitals where the selection process was the reverse...those with a greater chance of survival were treated before those whose prognosis was less optimistic.

Context does funny things to our priorities.

I think I'm with dullbird on this. Probably because I've seen 'Touching the Void'. Doesn't Everest have a 1:4 death rate? Given that so many who try are not climbers but egoists? And it's not as easy as it may appear? No offence there Camel Landy (g'day Mark when will the book and video be available?) Climbing must be yet another of man's many obsessions, like say BASE jumping - where a local (from Lismore) died doing a jump in Norway last week. Could be far worse tho guys...

Everyone to their own. I would not mind having a go at a lot smaller peak. I do not mind trying most things. However it annoys me that these morons (experienced and inexperienced) continue to go up these mountains and have no real rescue plan. What was even worse was to see the 40 odd people walk past the dying British fella. What is more important, trying to save someones life or reaching a summit. These people have put a price on someones life, their ego above all else. At least if he died on the way down, you tried and in my books would be a hero.
The other thing in the news recently was the bull that the government are going to kick in and help Larry Knights widow. Now while I feel for this family what makes them more important than any other mine widow and I have known a few over the years. It is even more disturbing that the government taxes any donations/contributions made to a fund. Community death benefit funds should be tax free.
:( :(

The decision to climb and the act of climbing involves others and therefore a person who climbs must consider the safety of others above their own...so if a person climbs and the decision is selfish then who shoulders the responsibility...we all die alone

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Originally Posted by Quiggers

I think I'm with dullbird on this. Probably because I've seen 'Touching the Void'. Doesn't Everest have a 1:4 death rate? Given that so many who try are not climbers but egoists? And it's not as easy as it may appear? No offence there Camel Landy (g'day Mark when will the book and video be available?) Climbing must be yet another of man's many obsessions, like say BASE jumping - where a local (from Lismore) died doing a jump in Norway last week. Could be far worse tho guys...

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Yep... Climbing = Obsession. Once the bug bites, you're hooked. :rolleyes: Base jumping, now that IS stoopid. :eek: It has the highest mortality rate of ANY sport!!!

I don't know what the ratio is on Everest but it's not as bad as some of the other >8000m peaks... K2 has a bit of a reputation for killing people!

M

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Originally Posted by camel_landy

Yep... Climbing = Obsession. Once the bug bites, you're hooked. :rolleyes: Base jumping, now that IS stoopid. :eek: It has the highest mortality rate of ANY sport!!!

I don't know what the ratio is on Everest but it's not as bad as some of the other >8000m peaks... K2 has a bit of a reputation for killing people!

M

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A mate of mine was the photographer on the Singlemans trip to the Karakorams (sp?) to base jump off Great Trango Tower. I hinted heavily I'd be a porter, but the bastard wouldn't take me !:rolleyes:

The photo's when he came back were stunning, and no, he isn't silly enough to jump. :lol:

As they were trekking through Northern Pakistan (remember, this is lawless taliban country, there really is no border with neighbouring Afganistan) they were passing through fields being worked here and there by women. At one point one of the girls stood up, looked straight at Ray, slid back here scarf to reveal an amazingly beautiful face and ran her tongue down the blade of the scythe she was using....:eek:
Scared the willies out of him as we could all imagine how her menfolk would react if they saw it. :o

I want to be the first to climb 'Olympus Mons' the great mountain on Mars. It's 27km high !
http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/planet...elds/olymp.jpg

Now that sounds a lot, but......

This picture clearly shows how large and flat Olympus Mons is. Although the volcano is nearly 27 km high, it is over 20 times wider than it is tall. Thus, most of the volcano has a fairly gentle surface slope.

So really, it'd be relatively easy, also aided by the fact that Mars gravity is less than that of Earth (only about 1/3 or 0.38 to be precise). :)


The image also shows the distinct cliff which marks the base of Olympus Mons. In places, this scarp is up to 6 km high. In other places, it is hidden under lava flows cascading out into the surrounding lava plains. This cliff is unique among the giant shield volcanoes on Mars. The rough, crinkly patches around Olympus Mons are also unusual. They form the Olympus Mons Aureole.


Both the Aureole and the basal cliff are poorly understood. However, their origins may be related. In one theory, the basal cliff was formed by many large landslides. The Aureole marks material piled up at the bottom of these landslides.

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Originally Posted by VladTepes

So really, it'd be relatively easy

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I think you may have forgotten something.


:lol: :lol: