HMS Glorious, Ardent & Acasta

The Gallipoli landings were the first instance I read where a commentator remarked that the soldiers were 'Lions led by Donkeys'. There are many books, web links and documentaries out there that get stuck into the abysmal planning and poor higher leadership involved, even by 1915 standards! Mind you, it was also the first place where a full combined-arms amphibious landing was attempted on a large scale. Lots of lessons were learned.

Marine Corps Amphibious Doctrine - The Gallipoli Connection

https://www.athensjournals.gr/histor...6-4-2-Cook.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV25q60Shv8

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Originally Posted by 4bee

The ANZACS went ashore in Oar powered wooden boats not armoured craft (ie, AMTRAKS/LVT etc with 50 Cals mounted) & that accounted for a heap of casualties from the off. They were towed to within a reasonable distance (?) from the beach & let go. From then on they were on their own. In the '20s they should have had much time to carry out Post Mortems of what went wrong.


Bad preparation, wrong beaches & I suppose many other things that we may have never been privy to.

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Anzac day in the 80s did allow me time with a few Gallipoli vets. They were and we are very proud of their efforts. Not the gooses that muck parts up.
Those gents I shared some time with were more than happy to share the honest side of the record. All were upset or angry to many of their mates died needlessly. The Fog of War is a ongoing and historical well known fact. "uncertainty in situational awareness experienced by participants in military operations"

Court Martial did and should occur for incompetence and arrogance needlessly killing people. Study of history shows we keep repeating the same mistakes. Usually arrogant old men then and now.[bigwhistle]

Not suggesting none of us make mistakes of course. Very happy not to be in Command myself

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Originally Posted by NavyDiver

Anzac day in the 80s did allow me time with a few Gallipoli vets. They were and we are very proud of their efforts. Not the gooses that muck parts up.
Those gents I shared some time with were more than happy to share the honest side of the record. All were upset or angry to many of their mates died needlessly. The Fog of War is a ongoing and historical well known fact. "uncertainty in situational awareness experienced by participants in military operations"

Court Martial did and should occur for incompetence and arrogance needlessly killing people. Study of history shows we keep repeating the same mistakes. Usually arrogant old men then and now.[bigwhistle]

Not suggesting none of us make mistakes of course. Very happy not to be in Command myself

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I don't wish to start a WW1 Remake here without Mel Gibson, but from what I can glean things only started to get ahead for the lads only after Australian Commanders could plan & lead the Australian contingent, away from that of British control. Of course by then it was all too late sadly.

History recalls the names of those Generals & Field Commanders.

EDIT. Christ, who in their right mind would pit a Frontal Assault & Advancing in Line Abreast in the age of Machine Guns? It still happened when they went to France & thousands were killed. It wasn't Waterloo you know.

Apparently they walked towards the enemy. Me, I'd be sprinting like ****ery.

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Originally Posted by Pedro_The_Swift

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV25q60Shv8

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Thanks Pedro, for posting that. Fascinating stuff with more & probably more accurate facts.


What a bloody cockup, eh? All Commanders should be issued with Crystal Balls.



EDIT. HMS Glory visited here on her way back to the UK after the Korean War together with a T class Sub (HMS Truculent. Sunk in collision with a Swedish tanker post war in the Thames Estuary) & a Mine layer HMS Manxman HMS Manxman (M70) - Wikipedia

HMS Truculent (P315) | Military Wiki | Fandom


Was getting to be a popular name one way or another.

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Originally Posted by 4bee

To an extent one can possibly understand their thinking ie. The olde guys were WW1 leftovers who saw & thought things differently.

Dardanelles/Gallipoli for an instance. A piece of **** they said, no sweat they said, & probably "No Worries" ,until it all went pear shaped & then the Blame Game started.


Games of Chess with people's lives.

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Churchill always said the Admiralty caused the failure of the Gallipoli campaign, by attempting to break thru the straits using old dreadnaughts, whose straight trajectory main armament were next to useless for infantry support. The Turks, under advice from the Germans, used mobile field howitzers which attacked the Battleships thinly armoured decks from a near vertical angle. I have read where a minefield of only 18 mines was responsible for most of the sinking of French and British ships. This attempt at forcing the straits alerted the Turks to the danger of a landing on the Gallipoli Peninsula, and reinforcements were sent . The Australians did indeed drift North , to the wrong landing place. Mustapha Kamal, the commander of the Turks at Gaba Tepe, sent his 57th Regiment to push the Aussies off the Sari Bair ridge, with the order " I'm ordering you not to attack, but to die ". The Gallipoli Association has an extensive record of the whole campaign. Sometimes we forget there were many more English and French than Australians involved.

From the Gallipoli Association;

Naval Travails - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org)

Preparations;

Preparations - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org)

The landings ;

The Landings - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org)

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Originally Posted by bob10

Churchill always said the Admiralty caused the failure of the Gallipoli campaign, by attempting to break thru the straits using old dreadnaughts, whose straight trajectory main armament were next to useless for infantry support. The Turks, under advice from the Germans, used mobile field howitzers which attacked the Battleships thinly armoured decks from a near vertical angle. I have read where a minefield of only 18 mines was responsible for most of the sinking of French and British ships. This attempt at forcing the straits alerted the Turks to the danger of a landing on the Gallipoli Peninsula, and reinforcements were sent . The Australians did indeed drift North , to the wrong landing place. Mustapha Kamal, the commander of the Turks at Gaba Tepe, sent his 57th Regiment to push the Aussies off the Sari Bair ridge, with the order " I'm ordering you not to attack, but to die ". The Gallipoli Association has an extensive record of the whole campaign. Sometimes we forget there were many more English and French than Australians involved.

From the Gallipoli Association;

Naval Travails - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org)

Preparations;

Preparations - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org)

The landings ;

The Landings - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org)

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The Admiralty probably believed "Bigger is Best" but not necessarily so from a dropping shell.

Who would even think of arguing the toss with a 12"- 16" Shell from a Battleship?[bigsad]

Not many, but the Turks obviously did knowing that the fall of shot was only a consideration if the ships were many miles away from the targets & ships could not elevate their guns but I bet HMS made a terrible hole in the ground which in turn would have provided some protection.



EDIT.

Would have been a bit of a mess for a while, bob, Brits & Aussies going forward, the French heading back out. Quickly.[bigrolf]

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Originally Posted by 4bee

Thanks Pedro, for posting that. Fascinating stuff with more & probably more accurate facts.


What a bloody cockup, eh? All Commanders should be issued with Crystal Balls.



EDIT. HMS Glory visited here on her way back to the UK after the Korean War together with a T class Sub & a Minelayer.


Was getting to be a popular name one way or another.

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HMS Glory (R62) - Wikipedia The image on this website will expand up 3x if you are interested.

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Originally Posted by 4bee

The Admiralty probably believed "Bigger is Best" but not necessarily so from a dropping shell.

Who would even think of arguing the toss with a 12"- 16" Shell from a Battleship?[bigsad]

Not many, but the Turks obviously did knowing that the fall of shot was only a consideration if the ships were many miles away from the targets & ships could not elevate their guns but I bet HMS made a terrible hole in the ground which in turn would have provided some protection.



EDIT.

Would have been a bit of a mess for a while, bob, Brits & Aussies going forward, the French heading back out. Quickly.[bigrolf]

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Everyone knocks the French. Truth is , their fight with the German's at Verdun was as hard as any in WW1, and saved Paris. The casualties on both sides were horrific. The French have also been credited as saving most of the BEF in WW2 by holding off the Germans long enough to evacuate Dunkirk. I'll PM you the stories when I find them again.

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Originally Posted by bob10

Everyone knocks the French. Truth is , their fight with the German's at Verdun was as hard as any in WW1, and saved Paris. The casualties on both sides were horrific. The French have also been credited as saving most of the BEF in WW2 by holding off the Germans long enough to evacuate Dunkirk. I'll PM you the stories when I find them again.

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That may be bob but FiL claims the French treated BEF Members atrociously. He was there.