Nuclear Power - debate / poll

We dont need to go Nuclear to survive as a race on this pile of dirt.


WE need to think smarter......not easier!

Forget about nuclear.......we have power at our fingertips........we have to harness it.

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Originally Posted by MT

3. They cannot make the trains run on time (how hard can it be - the old saying goes that even Mussolini could make the trains run on time in Itay 70 years ago!)

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Originally Posted by MT

When you (sic) assessor stops laughing you should get a good comment or two.

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If you knew anything about running trains, you'd know that your comment is farcical.

The biggest problems with running trains on time are caused by passengers - assaults, robberies, excreting in trains and wiping it over seats, etc., vomiting, getting of the train to have a smoke leaving their kids on the train then screaming blue murder that the train has left with their kids, drug addicts overdosing, drunks, kicking windows out (pax cannot travel in trails with missing windows or smashed windows), throwing seats out of the trains, people throwing rocks at the trains, putting rocks under trainstops to set signals at stop, putting object on the line, etc.

I've just been watching 4 Transit Officers and 6 police outside my signal box dealing with drunk pax who were causing problems. One pax arrested.

Ron

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Originally Posted by D110V8D

WE need to think smarter......not easier!

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Absolutly nothing wrong with that statement. :)

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Originally Posted by vnx205

Point no.2 Clean? Isn't it true that "venting" is a standard practice at nuclear reactors involving the release of radioactive gases to the atmosphere?
Point no. 3 CO2 reduction? Nuclear powerstations will not remove a hell of a lot of CO2 from the atmosphere.
What about the energy required to build the reactor and mine, mill and process the uranium? That contributes to greenhouse gases. The claims about removing CO2 ignore the contribution of these stages in the process.
Point no. 6. How can it be long term if the reserves of high grade ore are so limited? When we move to lower grade ore, the CO2 emitted in the mining and milling becomes even greater.
How do nuclear reactors work? Are you asking about Generation I, Light Water Generation II (which make up the majority of existing reactors and do you mean the Pressurised Water Reactors or the Boiling Water Reactors) or Heavy Water Generation II Reactors, or Generation III such as the AP-1000 PWR or III+ Reactors or Generation IV. They all have their problems including the problem with Gen IV relying on fuel and plant performance figures that have not been tested let alone proven to be achievable and requiring metals to resist corrosion way beyond anything that has been achieved so far.

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Evening Allan, yes, venting is a "standard" practice, during a non standard operation parameter. Even from an operational point, definately not a first resort, or choice. The CO2 thing, don't put words in my mouth please. I never said NP removes CO2, only that it does not contribute to it whilst running. I also think you might find I mentioned that NP is not at all cheap to set up. But, once commissioned into service, yes they are fuel efficient on a ton of fuel per kilowatt basis,and yes, I agree that all reactors have pro's and con's, as do all other forms of industrialisation.
The petrochemical industry is a nightmare of polution, from end to end, yet we love our tupperware and our waterproof nylon carpets in the Disco, don't we?
How about the filthy mess the DuPont and Monsanto mobs have made with organo-phosphates, and Agent Orange, but we puff our chest up over our prize roses don't we?
How about the mess in India from Union Carbide, but we love our wizzbang techtoys with the rechargeable batteries.
Yep, this is really a very emotional topic, more than a political or even an eccological one, in a lot of ways. It truly is a very great shame, that the peacefull bennefits, for want of a better term ( trust me, I do dislike the pop terms of the press) of E=MC2 were far overshadowed by the dreadfull power unleashed if the reaction is not controlled.
And lastly, my question was a more generalised one on how a nuke power station works. I am not so arrogant as to expect everybody to know how a reactor works. The answer? Pretty much the same way as a conventional power station actually, in lay terms for everybody else. The heat produced by the controlled reaction, is used to boil water off to "Superheated Steam" (and that is the correct term, I have my open class steam certificates, so please be polite.) which is used to drive turbines that drive the alternators.

So to sum up, yes there are some concerns over reactor safety. Unfortunately, it has been my belief for many years, this is the way we must go. Rather than be terrified out of our little wits, because somebody said we should be. I think maybe, we should learn, and make damn sure things are setup and run in the right way from the start. The Navy lost 4 beautiful young Australians on the Westralia, because a bloody penny pinching public servant decided second best was good enough. Well we should all say screw them, they are the SERVANT, and they have no say on what we decide is best. If this country must go with NP, then we had better demand nothing but the best, and let the government know, we are watching. WE employ them, WE can sack them. No second best shortcuts can be tolerated by us the public, when and if it comes to Nuclear Power in this country. I'm not gungho for NP, no way mate. Some parts of my old job, still not nice in my mind. But, what do we do?

Hell, it looks like I'm in my under-rants again, reading back on that, sorry.

Shorty.

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Originally Posted by moose

here's the list of references quoted. Feel free to check up on them.
References

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Canadian Nuclear Society (2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-iaeapdf>^ 50 Years of Nuclear Energy (PDF). International Atomic Energy Agency. Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-tbi>^ The Political Economy of Nuclear Energy in the United States. Social Policy. The Brookings Institution (2004). Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-pbs>^ Dr. Charles Till. Nuclear Reaction: Why Do Americans Fear Nuclear Power?. Public Broadcasting Service (PBS). Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-wna-wmitnfc>^ a b c Waste Management in the Nuclear Fuel Cycle. Infomation and Issue Briefs. World Nuclear Assosciation (2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-stanford-cohen>^ John McCarthy (2006). Facts From Choen and Others. Progress and its Sustainability. Stanford. Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-wna-anpr>^ Advanced Nuclear Power Reactors. Infomation and Issue Briefs. World Nuclear Assosciation (2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-wna-thorium>^ Thorium. Information and Issue Briefs. World Nuclear Assosciation (2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-fusie-ongena>^ Ongena, J & Van Oost, G. Energy for Future Centuries. Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-uic-waste>^ Radioactive Waste Management. Uranium & Nuclear Power Information Centre (2002). Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-wna-adne>^ Accelerator-driven Nuclear Energy. Information and Issue Briefs. World Nuclear Association (2003). Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-bbc-iranstandoff>^ Q&A: Iran Nuclear Stand-Off. BBC News (2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-09. <LI id=_note-1>^ Baker, Peter; Linzer, Dafna. "Nuclear Energy Plan Would Use Spent Fuel". Washington Post (2007-01-26). Retrieved on 2007-01-31. <LI id=_note-countryguardian>^ The Costs of Generating Electricity (PDF). The Royal Academy of Engineering (2004). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-wna-teonp>^ The Economics of Nuclear Power. Information and Issue Briefs. World Nuclear Association (2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-mit>^ The Future of Nuclear Power. Massachusetts Institute of Technology (2003). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-oko>^ Uwe R. Fritsche (1997). Comparing Greenhouse-Gas Emissions and Abatement Costs of Nuclear and Alternative Energy Options from a Life-Cycle Perspective. Oko-Institut. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-2>^ Malcolm Grimston (December 2005). "The Importance of Politics to Nuclear New Build". Royal Institute of International Affairs. Retrieved on 2006-11-17. <LI id=_note-3>^ Till Stenzel (September 2003). "What does it mean to keep the nuclear option open in the UK?". Imperial College. Retrieved on 2006-11-17. <LI id=_note-nustart>^ NuStart Energy Picks Enercon for New Nuclear Power Plant License Applications for a GE ESBWR and a Westinghouse AP 1000. PRNewswire (2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-NRC_Information_Digest_2006-2007>^ NUREG-1350 Vol. 18: NRC Information Digest 2006-2007 (PDF). Nuclear Regulatory Commission (2006). Retrieved on 2007-1-22. <LI id=_note-wna-esaec>^ a b Energy Subsidies and External Costs. Information and Issue Briefs. World Nuclear Assosciation (2005). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-pbs-french>^ Jon Palfreman. Why the French Like Nuclear Power. Frontline. Public Broadcasting Service. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-berkeley>^ Xu Mi (1999). Chinese Fast Reactor Technology Development. China Institute of Atomic Energy. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-wna-eaops>^ a b Energy Analysis of Power Systems. Information and Issue Briefs. World Nuclear Association (2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-oilendgame>^ Levins, Amory; Kyle Datta, Jonathan Koomey, Nathan Glasglow (2004). Winning the Oil Endgame. Rocky Mountain Institute. ISBN 1881071103. <LI id=_note-wna-ree>^ Renewable Energy and Electricity. Information and Issue Briefs. World Nuclear Association (2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-energy.ca.gov>^ 2005 Integrated Energy Policy Report. Docket #04-IEP-1, et al. California Energy Commission (2005). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-wna-sonpr>^ a b Safety of Nuclear Power Reactors. Infomation and Issue Briefs. World Nuclear Association (2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-usnrc-tmi>^ Fact Sheet on the Accident at Three Mile Island. U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-nti-nwfu>^ Vadim Nesvizhskiy (1999). Neutron Weapon from Underground. Research Library. Nuclear Threat Initiative. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-aa-ionsi>^ Infomation on Nuclear Smuggling Incidents. Nuclear Almanac. Nuclear Threat Initiative. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-gu-wgus>^ Amelia Gentleman and Ewen MacAskill (2001). Weapons-grade Uranium Seized. Guardian Unlimited. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-ag-trutiosftt>^ Pavel Simonov (2005). The Russian Uranium That is on Sale for the Terrorists. Global Challenges Research. Axis. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-bbc-acodbt>^ Action Call Over Dirty Bomb Threat. BBC News (2003). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-bbc-tgns>^ Thousands Guard Nuclear Shipment. BBC News (2005). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-wna-tnfc>^ The Nuclear Fuel Cycle. Information and Issue Briefs. World Nuclear Association (2005). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-tbotas-dbdj>^ Lewis Z Kock (2004). Dirty Bomber? Dirty Justice. Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-nrc-copiiep>^ Consideration of Potassium Iodide in Emergency Planning. U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-truthout>^ Nuclear Reactors Found to Be Leaking Radioactive Water (HTML). TruthOut (2006). Retrieved on 2006-03-17. <LI id=_note-illattgen>^ Madigan, Glasgow File Suit for Radioactive Leaks at Braidwood Nuclear Plant (HTML). Illinois Attorney General (2006). Retrieved on 2006-03-17. <LI id=_note-doe-about>^ About DOE. U.S. Department of Energy. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-wss-stsoet>^ Babur Habib et al (2006). Stemming the Spread of Enrichment Technology (PDF). Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-npec-afeotpdolwr>^ Victor Galinsky, Marvin Miller & Harmon Hubbard (2004). A Fresh Examination of the Proliferation Dangers of Light Water Reactors (PDF). Nonproliferation Policy Education Center. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-nwa-inwptb>^ The Beginning: 1944-1960. India's Nuclear Weapons Program. Nuclear Weapon Archive (2001). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-fas-pnwac>^ Pakistan Nuclear Weapons — A Chronology. WMD Around the World. Federation of American Scientists (1998). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-fas-sanwp>^ Nuclear Weapons Program. WMD Around the World — South Africa. Federation of American Scientists (2000). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-aei-wur>^ James Jopf (2004). World Uranium Reserves. American Energy Independence. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-nt-eeonp>^ Environmental Effects of Nuclear Power. The Virtual Nuclear Tourist (2005). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-catf-dada>^ Dirty Air, Dirty Power: Mortality and Health Damage Due to Air Pollution from Power Plants. Clean Air Task Force (2004). Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-stormsmith>^ Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen and Philip Smith (2003). Nuclear Power — The Energy Balance. Retrieved on 2006-11-10. <LI id=_note-bbc-nqffnp>^ 'No Quick Fix' From Nuclear Power. BBC News (2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-10.
2. ^ Is nuclear the answer?. Sustainable Development Commission (2006). Retrieved on 2006-12-22.

• An entry to nuclear power through an educational discussion of reactors
• The Nuclear Energy Option, online book by Bernard L. Cohen. Pro nuclear power. Emphasis on risk estimates of nuclear.
• Oldberg, T. and R. Christensen (1995) "Erratic Measure," NDE for the Energy Industry 1995, pp. 1-6, The American Society of Mechanical Engineers, New York, NY
• Oldberg, T. (2005) "An Ethical Problem in the Statistics of Defect Detection Test Reliability," Address to the Golden Gate Chapter of the American Society for Nondestructive Testing, March 10, 2005
• Steve Thomas (2005), "The Economics of Nuclear Power: analysis of recent studies", PSIRU, University of Greenwich, UK
• Nuclear power information archives from ALSOS, the National Digital Science Library at Washington & Lee University.
• Nuclear Power: the Energy Balance A comprehensive yet controversial lifecycle assessment of nuclear power generation by Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen and Philip Smith, update August 2005
• Critical Hour: Three Mile Island, The Nuclear Legacy, And National Security Online book by Albert J. Fritsch, Arthur H. Purcell, and Mary Byrd Davis (2005), Updated edition June 2006

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That would be pointless unless I had some specific subject matter knowledge as to the credibility of both the author of the post and all of the journals / texts and authors cited.

I don't. Do you?

The point I am making is that just because something sounds or looks credible does not mean that it is.

Propaganda in wartime looks credible to the target audience- it is designed to. That does not mean that it is.

Should we trust because someone has taken the time to post it, so it must be all ridgy didge? If that is the case, I have a friend with some money stuck in a bank account in Nigeria.........

I reiterate. There have been numerous instances of blatant lies being posted on Wikipedia and staying there for protracted periods. Take it all with a pinch of salt.

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Originally Posted by p38arover

If you knew anything about running trains, you'd know that your comment is farcical.

The biggest problems with running trains on time are caused by passengers - assaults, robberies, excreting in trains and wiping it over seats, etc., vomiting, getting of the train to have a smoke leaving their kids on the train then screaming blue nurder that the train has left with their kids, drug addicts overdosing, drunks, kicking windows out (pax cannot travel in trails with missing windows or smashed windows), thorwing seats out of the trains, people throwing rocks at the trains, putting rocks under trainstops to set signals at stop, putting object on the line, etc.

I've just been watching 4 Transit Officers and 6 police outside my signal box dealing with drunk pax who were causing problems. One pax arrested.

Ron

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Ron......You forgot to mention the bastards who paint those beautiful murals on the sides of the trains! They cause all sorts of delays to the system.;)

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Originally Posted by D110V8D

Ron......You forgot to mention the bastards who paint those beautiful murals on the sides of the trains! They cause all sorts of delays to the system.;)

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They certainly do. Especially when one gets killed.

There's about one death per week on NSW rail - it doesn't get into the news 'cos a number are suicides and they don't want people emulating them. A death really stuffs the network.

You'd be surprised how many people fall down between the platform and the train (and don't get injured).

Ron

Nuke 'em 'till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark!

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Originally Posted by p38arover

If you knew anything about running trains, you'd know that your comment is farcical.

getting of the train to have a smoke leaving their kids on the train then screaming blue (sic) nurder that the train has left with their kids, drug addicts overdosing, drunks, kicking windows out (pax cannot travel in trails with missing windows or smashed windows), (sic)thorwing seats out of the trains, people throwing rocks at the trains, putting rocks under trainstops to set signals at stop, putting object on the line, etc.

I've just been watching 4 Transit Officers and 6 police outside my signal box dealing with drunk pax who were causing problems. One pax arrested.

Ron

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Old jungle saying "he who types fast and does not spell check should not quote others similar mistakes".

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Originally Posted by MT

3.They cannot make the trains run on time (how hard can it be - the old saying goes that even Mussolini could make the trains run on time in Itay 70 years ago!)

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Then he got hung up by his goolies in the town square. You forgot to mention how many trains Mussolini's network had on it.