$600,000 Gtho

This maybe off subject but 10 years ago I was in Katherine in the NT during the build up to the wet and was staying in one of the caravan parks, every night we would watch all the sights as people came in anyway a Chev Powered Holden (think it was a Brougham??) pulled in towing a Caravan a Mazda van and a 4 wheel trailer :o
This car had towed the whole combo all the way from WA basically the Mazda had the heavily loaded 4 wheel trailer and the Mazda died, so they just hooked it all up all this and it was over 40 degrees. (remembering that the Holden already had a caravan on the back)
The Holden had done over 200,000 miles the only comment the driver made was it he went over 80kmh the old girl ran a little bit warm. Amazing

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Originally Posted by CraigE

Tank,
Yeah loyalties aside. A little Torana with a 186 was beaten by a Ford GT. As soon as the 202 went in the GTHO was beaten. More than twice the engine capacity, but only about a third bigger in size. Those are the facts. Then the A9X came along and Ford have not been able to compete consitently since.
The statement about bigger engine in to a smaller car is the most PW excuse I have heard. Fords also came out in a 6 cylinder. The Fords were a POS apart from straight line speed. Holden built cars that could handle. Imagine if they did both and the XU2 reached production. It would have been game over for Ford.
Technically you are right about fastest 4 door, but if we are comparing apples with apples and go by weight the Charger was faster over the quarter.
The problem with Ford supporters is they have no reason, just blind loyalty and can not accept the facts as they stand.
Yes Holden have been beaten by Ford and I accept that. Better car at the time.
The HQ was not an option at the time against the GT as was only just coming into production and never aimed at the racing market. The use of the torana was only supposed to be a gap filler until the new Monaro was launched, but proved so succesfull Holden continued the race program down this track.
I wont even go into the Sierra debate. That was the end of decent racing.
"Holden never played the game square". It is a competition and Holden used what resources it had, how is that not square. Ford did the same with the Sierras and still had to cheat. They never even came close to selling the required amount of cars in Australia that was required either. As said and proven in previous posts the Falcons were not an Aussie designed car at all either. Most Holdens were (early Toranas were not). At least Holden have remained commited to supporting motor racing here in Australia, not like Ford up and down support.
Do not get me wrong I like the GTs etc and have respect for them, but I dont have blinkers on otherwise I would be making simmilar silly statements about early Monaros, Toranas etc
;):)

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Quote: "The HQ was not an option at the time against the GT as was only just coming into production and never aimed at the racing market. The use of the torana was only supposed to be a gap filler until the new Monaro was launched, but proved so succesfull Holden continued the race program down this track."

The most Lame Excuse I've ever heard, blind Freddy could see that Holden didn't have the guts to compete fairly, on a same car basis with Ford, the Toranas were Pommy Vauxhalls originally fitted with a 4 cyl. engine designed as a small to medium sized car, they were 1/2 a ton lighter than the Fords, but were allowed to run the same size wheels and tyres and brakes as the full size race cars, i.e. Falcons and Valiants weren't the ones to stuff production car racing, it was Holden with their Hybrid Vauxhall and then followed by the little commodores, which were a 4 cyl. Opel from Germany, Australias Own Car, the greatest Fraud ever perpertrated on the Australian Public, at least all Ford Falcons from XA (1972) on were designed by Australians in Australia, how many holdens were designed in Australia by Australians????????, Regards Frank.

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Originally Posted by Tank

Quote:

The most Lame Excuse I've ever heard, blind Freddy could see that Holden didn't have the guts to compete fairly, on a same car basis with Ford, the Toranas were Pommy Vauxhalls originally fitted with a 4 cyl. engine designed as a small to medium sized car, they were 1/2 a ton lighter than the Fords, but were allowed to run the same size wheels and tyres and brakes as the full size race cars, i.e. Falcons and Valiants weren't the ones to stuff production car racing, it was Holden with their Hybrid Vauxhall and then followed by the little commodores, which were a 4 cyl. Opel from Germany, Australias Own Car, the greatest Fraud ever perpertrated on the Australian Public, at least all Ford Falcons from XA (1972) on were designed by Australians in Australia, how many holdens were designed in Australia by Australians????????, Regards Frank.

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Frank,

Holden were Australian until the grabbed the the first Opel Commodore. After that thing improves a little, but not much. :D

Ford did not really break away fully from Ford Canada untill the late 60's.

One of my Uncles in South AU, has a 1971 six cyl auto, Falcon Fairmont with 70,000 original miles on it. It is imaculate, belonged to the Grandmother from new. He got it after she died.

He keeps it under lock and key for obvious reasons. He has had many rediculous offers for it :D

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Originally Posted by JamesH

...... V8 cars and big twin bike engines of that era are well known for their beautiful noise, everyone agrees, but a worked six is a very under-rated note. I can still hear the angry red engines in those Toranas. ........

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Yep, great sound!
I used to love the sound the v8s and the Chargers made around Oran Park as they were being rounded up by a Cooper S.
:p

Looks like the gloves are coming off in the Holden V Ford argument.

On the subject of how the hot cars of yesteryear compare with modern cars, does anyone remember the result a few years ago at Bathurst when they did a lap in a modern V8 road car, a V8 Supercar and an XU1?
I have forgotten the result, but I remember thinking at the time that it was interesting.

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Originally Posted by vnx205

Yep, great sound!
I used to love the sound the v8s and the Chargers made around Oran Park as they were being rounded up by a Cooper S.
:p

Looks like the gloves are coming off in the Holden V Ford argument.

On the subject of how the hot cars of yesteryear compare with modern cars, does anyone remember the result a few years ago at Bathurst when they did a lap in a modern V8 road car, a V8 Supercar and an XU1?
I have forgotten the result, but I remember thinking at the time that it was interesting.

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It was closer than most people would have thought and was Brockys A9X. The road car got left for dead.
I am Holden biased but I wish people would stick to facts.

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Originally Posted by Tank

<snip>

The most Lame Excuse I've ever heard, blind Freddy could see that Holden didn't have the guts to compete fairly, on a same car basis with Ford, the Toranas were Pommy Vauxhalls originally fitted with a 4 cyl. engine designed as a small to medium sized car, they were 1/2 a ton lighter than the Fords, but were allowed to run the same size wheels and tyres and brakes as the full size race cars, i.e. Falcons and Valiants weren't the ones to stuff production car racing, it was Holden with their Hybrid Vauxhall and then followed by the little commodores, which were a 4 cyl. Opel from Germany, Australias Own Car, the greatest Fraud ever perpertrated on the Australian Public, at least all Ford Falcons from XA (1972) on were designed by Australians in Australia, how many holdens were designed in Australia by Australians????????, Regards Frank.

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:lol2: :lol2:

oh dear, this is just so funny, you fella's crack me up.

They are just cars, made by corporations that have no loyalty whatsover to you, only their shareholders (and that's tenuous )

BTW, before Group C rules came in, LC and LJ Torana's used much smaller wheel and tyre packages than the Falcon and Chargers, they were in a totally different class. Even when Group C came in, they still only ran 13" diameter rims until the A9X came along ;)

I have no loyalty either way, at the time Dad had Holdens and that's they way I leaned, then when I raced it was with a Ford engine and subsidised by the blue oval, (thank my deity it didn't have doors or a roof) and with hindsight they are all crap, but an A9X still stirs me :D

Oh, and I raced an XU1 a couple of times for a customer/mate. (Group NC-historics)
Friggin piece of crap after an openwheeler. After my first test session at Amaroo I came in and told the engineer it had no brakes, wouldn't turn in, (bloody Detroit Locker), lurched and fell over after turn in, wallowed and rocked and jumped and banged all over the road and I couldn't really point it with any precision. I wanted to change springs and shocks and Paul said......
"just shut up and drive it, they all do that. Falcons are worse...." and he used to race a Mustang !

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Originally Posted by RonMcGr

Frank,

Holden were Australian until the grabbed the the first Opel Commodore. After that thing improves a little, but not much. :D

Ford did not really break away fully from Ford Canada untill the late 60's.

One of my Uncles in South AU, has a 1971 six cyl auto, Falcon Fairmont with 70,000 original miles on it. It is imaculate, belonged to the Grandmother from new. He got it after she died.

He keeps it under lock and key for obvious reasons. He has had many rediculous offers for it :D

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Even the FX and FJ were designed by Yanks in the USA, read the history, Regards Frank.

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Originally Posted by Tank

Quote: "The HQ was not an option at the time against the GT as was only just coming into production and never aimed at the racing market. The use of the torana was only supposed to be a gap filler until the new Monaro was launched, but proved so succesfull Holden continued the race program down this track."

The most Lame Excuse I've ever heard, blind Freddy could see that Holden didn't have the guts to compete fairly, on a same car basis with Ford, the Toranas were Pommy Vauxhalls originally fitted with a 4 cyl. engine designed as a small to medium sized car, they were 1/2 a ton lighter than the Fords, but were allowed to run the same size wheels and tyres and brakes as the full size race cars, i.e. Falcons and Valiants weren't the ones to stuff production car racing, it was Holden with their Hybrid Vauxhall and then followed by the little commodores, which were a 4 cyl. Opel from Germany, Australias Own Car, the greatest Fraud ever perpertrated on the Australian Public, at least all Ford Falcons from XA (1972) on were designed by Australians in Australia, how many holdens were designed in Australia by Australians????????, Regards Frank.

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Its not meant to be an excuse lame or otherwise. Ford got beaten by a smaller lower powered car and you guys still can not accept that. Bigger brakes, bigger tyres, now that is a real poor comeback. Oh and the Falcon was a car that the American public rejected and did not sell, hence why we got it in Australia.This debate about Australian designed cars is just stupid. The XA was not an Australian designed car, it used most of the panels off of a Mustang. Even the latest BA / BF look remarkablly like a current Mustang.
Seen anything similar to a HQ on or LH / LX Torana elsewhwere in the world? Dont think so.
Fords design team right through the 60's and 70's mainly comprised Canadian and Americans. Learn your history.
Who cares who designed what as long as it looked good and went well. There were far more Aussie input designed vehicles by Holden than by Ford. I can dig up pics, as done before of American or European Fords that look like Aussie models but manufactured earlier. Can you do the same with most Holdens, with the exception of FB/FC, LC/LJ and early Commodores?
I am out of this thread as it is useless disagreeing with Ford Freaks as they do not have the ability to reason.
:o:D:p:eek:

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Originally Posted by CraigE

It was closer than most people would have thought and was Brockys A9X. The road car got left for dead.
I am Holden biased but I wish people would stick to facts.

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Oops, sorry.
I'm just forgetful, not biased.

Actually it would be more accurate to say that I am biased, but I am equally biased against Holden and Ford.

I am much more impressed by a vehicle that performs because it is clever. Give me finesse over brute force any day.

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Originally Posted by Tank

Even the FX and FJ were designed by Yanks in the USA, read the history, Regards Frank.

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Frank,

They certainly were, and I believe the first one was also hand made by yanks. (Not to mention the prototype.)

However they were never made in the USA/CA for local build.