Thread: Winch Question

Originally Posted by stock

Is This Rope for Real?

A lot of people are hesitant to replace their steel cable with this strange, new stuff. Blue? Yellow? Purple? Green? It looks like a joke! Some say it's not as tough... that the synthetic rope will fray easily and break. Others worry that it's plastic and that heat from the winch will melt it. Price conscience guys have trouble with the high cost. These are valid concerns, but there are good answers.

Tough Stuff

Does synthetic rope fray and break? Yes, but not any more than a steel cable. In many cases, the synthetic stuff can be abused far more than steel and still be safe. Have you ever kinked a steel cable? Of course! Every kink in a steel cable adds a serious weak point to an already dangerous product. The synthetic rope doesn't care how it's bent, kinked or abused. It's tough and it bounces right back into shape. Some fraying is to be expected, but the strength is reduced only incrementally compared to the huge number of fine fibers. Previous testing by 4x4Wire showed the synthetic rope actually wearing away the edge of a steel fairlead!

Sure, it's tough, but why wear the rope when it's not necessary? A nifty wear guard can be had when purchasing the X-Line. ORO's version can be taken on and off thanks to a full-length velcro edge. Some people take their guard on and off, but I leave my wear guard on all the time. It simply rolls up inside the winch, protecting the end of the X-Line even when the winch isn't being used.


Will the plastic rope melt on a hot winch drum? Yes or No, depending on which product you're talking about. Heat is a real concern, but only with the UHMWPE, which has a melting temperature of 284° F, and a critical temperature (the point at which the rope starts to weaken) of only 150° F. The drum of a Warn winch can be expected to reach temperatures well over 200° F (one source says as high as 300° F). The Technora aramid fiber-based X-Line rope does not begin to decompose until over 900° F, and X-Line can be used at nearly 400° F for long periods of time without loss of strength. At last, a winch product that doesn't have heat as an Achilles heel!

Sun Damage

Untreated, both UHMWPE and X-Line will degrade in the sun and can lose as much as half their strength when exposed to direct sun for three months. Both products, however, are coated with a UV polyurethane protective coating. I'm keeping my winch line out of the sun whenever possible, but X-Line's coating will protect it. The untreated X-Line is yellow... about the same color as a sticky note. (The original color can be exposed by pulling apart the fibers.) The UV coating turns it a nice dark green.

Rope Length and Extension

I opted for a 100' rope for my winch, compared to the standard 125' steel cable that ships with the XD9000i. With the shorter length, I can winch closer to the drum, giving me a better pull... more pounds with fewer electrical amps. Less rope on the drum also means I can bunch it up during a side pull without worrying about jamming the drum. If I need more cable, I reach for the 50' winch extension. I can use the extra piece for either increased line length for myself or for other guys who still have the steel cable. By using my synthetic X-Line on the end of a steel cable, we can unspool less steel, reducing the chance of a broken-cable injury.
Spooling out the X-Line on the Fordyce Trail. Bryan was wedged badly between two bolders. ORO stainless steel d-ring next to a galvanized d-ring.
X-Line to the rescue again. This time we're on the Fordyce Trail for Sierra Trek 2002. We were able to work around the stuck rig without worrying about a broken cable injury.
ORO's stainless steel d-rings (left) rule! They don't jamb, so you never need tools to open them. Notice the large diameter and big opening.

Rope Elongation and Stretch Myth

Winch cable backlash is a major concern for anyone working with it or close to it. A broken steel cable can be deadly. Why? We've all heard the same thing, that steel is dangerous because it stretches. And that synthetic rope, either UHMWPE or X-Line, is safe because it does not stretch. Correct? I don't think so. The danger from steel cable comes from its weight, not the stretch.

Steel stretches... as much as 1.7% elongation at break, but that's less than synthetic. Compare that to X-Line's 4.6% elongation at break (14,000 lbs. for the 5/16" dia. rope). That would make X-Line more dangerous, but it isn't. Let me dust off some book learnin' from way back. Energy is mass times velocity squared, E=MV?. The weight (M) plays a direct (not squared) role in the energy equation. The velocity (V) of the rope is a bigger factor because it's squared, yet the lighter rope just drops dead on break. There must be a physical property we're not considering. How about... what's it called... snap? Snap factor. How quickly does the elongated mass return to its original dimension when the tension is released? I'll wager steel returns to its original length almost instantly, which would create a massive acceleration in a large mass. Synthetic rope (educated guessing here) probably returns slowly. The slow acceleration and light weight create no energy. The rope drops harmlessly.

The notion that synthetic rope does not stretch has a basis in truth, I think, when compared to traditional nylon and polyester ropes. Those old-technology products have much higher stretch figures and vastly lower strengths.

UHMWPE differs here, because it stretches less than X-Line. UHMWPE has an elongation of only 0.79% at 30% of breaking strength (that's about 4,200 lbs. pull). X-Line's stretch is 1.2% at the same tension, or about 50% higher. Is the additional stretch a problem? Probably not. Remember that the synthetic rope has a much higher breaking strength than steel, so the large amount of stretch will not be seen in real life.




List per Maker of rope. Compared to similar sized Wire Cable

Make Size / Diameter Minimum Breaking Strength
Master-Pull Superline 7/16" 40,000lb.
Master-Pull Winch Line 7/16" 32,000lb.
Amsteel® Blue 7/16" 21,533lb.
Technora® 7/16 25.000lb.
Vectran® 7/16" 21,000lb.
Plasma® 7/16" 21,000lb.
Spectra® 7/16" 14,800lb.
Wire cable 7/16" 17,600lb.


Master-Pull ™ Superline 3/8" 26,500lb.
Master-Pull ™ Winch Line 3/8" 18,000lb.
Amsteel® Blue 3/8" 17,640lb.
Technora® 3/8" 17,500lb.
Vectran® 3/8" 17,500lb.
Plasma® 3/8" 17,500lb.
Spectra® 3/8" 13,900lb.
Wire cable 3/8" 14,400lb.


Master-Pull ™ Superline 5/16" 21,000lb.
Master-Pull ™ Winch Line 5/16" 13,000lb.
Amsteel® Blue 5/16" 12,330lb.
Vectran® 5/16" 11,700lb.
Plasma® 5/16" 11,700lb.
Spectra® 5/16" 9,000lb.
Wire cable 5/16" 9,800lb.

robbed off our own forum HB4X4

It is not a joke
I used it on my winch challenge 90 in many , many events and the stuff is good and very very strong. It was strong enough to still stay intact when a Warn High mount stalled due to too much presure to pull.I would put it on a truck with no worries. Alot safer to use and live with
And some of it is stronger than wire
But like anything you have to look after it

Originally Posted by ak

Thanks Craige, I guessed it might be about that. Thinking about putting a plasma rope on to cut down on some weight. However at $600 plus for the plasma rope I am thinking real hard.

As in is it worth it, how long will it take me to get it back in fuel costs.

some times i am amazed,
trying to recover fuel costs on a landie by making it 6 kilo's lighter, might just as well only fill the fuel tank to half - disco holds about 90ltrs, half full means a saving of around 40 kgs, but you have to stop more often, so if trying to save money, you will have to factor in the extra cost of wearing out the brake pads and rotors

the plasma ropes good stuff. But I dont use it for 2 reasons.

1. as of yet its not tirfor friendly
2. as of yet its not capstan friendly.

it also doesnt really like being worked when its wet and dirty neither does SWR but the synthetic stuff suffers more for it.

the reason why it doesnt "snap" back at you when it decides not to play as it lets go gradually. remeber thats relatively speaking when it decides its had enough it begins to frey apart so individual strands just snick back and loose a lot of the tension they held transfering it to another part of the cable this becomes overloaded and then frays apart transfering this load to another part of the cable. This continues on untill the cable parts but with all the passing of load the bits that remain are holding more stress but also more weight of dead rope, when it finally lets go you might have one tiny thread holding up the whole weight of the rope and when it parts it has to use its tiny mass to accelerate all the other stuff thats already decided its time for smoke.

SWR on the other hand tends to let go in a one in all in kind of way as theres very little reserve of strength in any of the individual wires once one or 2 let go as it has bugger all reserve the rest sort of look sideways at the ones that have already decided its lunchtime and give it "well bugger that IF they can let go I can let go what do you reckon fellas?" and then theres a mass union meet and everyone flies off together.

IF you ever get the chance goto a place that does destrucive testing of rigging gear hearing a SWR cable sing just before it lets go is one of those things you'll learn to love the sound of in a test environment and run like hell from in the real world.

Originally Posted by stock

Is This Rope for Real?

A lot of people are hesitant to replace their steel cable with this strange, new stuff. Blue? Yellow? Purple? Green? It looks like a joke! Some say it's not as tough... that the synthetic rope will fray easily and break. Others worry that it's plastic and that heat from the winch will melt it. Price conscience guys have trouble with the high cost. These are valid concerns, but there are good answers.

Tough Stuff

Sure, it's tough, but why wear the rope when it's not necessary? A nifty wear guard can be had when purchasing the X-Line. ORO's version can be taken on and off thanks to a full-length velcro edge. Some people take their guard on and off, but I leave my wear guard on all the time. It simply rolls up inside the winch, protecting the end of the X-Line even when the winch isn't being used.

See my comments about slipping tubular webbing to protect the hook end and to mark the drum end. Synthetic ropes should be protected from abrasion with the use of items such as smooth round fence post, X eng zig zag or with the aid of deviations.

Will the plastic rope melt on a hot winch drum? Yes or No, depending on which product you're talking about. Heat is a real concern, but only with the UHMWPE, which has a melting temperature of 284° F, and a critical temperature (the point at which the rope starts to weaken) of only 150° F. The drum of a Warn winch can be expected to reach temperatures well over 200° F (one source says as high as 300° F). The Technora aramid fiber-based X-Line rope does not begin to decompose until over 900° F, and X-Line can be used at nearly 400° F for long periods of time without loss of strength. At last, a winch product that doesn't have heat as an Achilles heel!

Thermo plastic materials will melt. Non thermo plastic materials such as Kevlar etc degrades at elevated temperatures. Thermo plastic polymers such as polythenes lose strength with increasing temperatures. Conversely they increase in strength with decreasing temperature. The rate of loss of strength increases with increasing temperature. At 70-80C (my guess) is that the materials based on UHMWPE would have lost in the region of 30-50% of its strength. Get up to 100-110C then the strength loss (my guess) would be in the region of 80-90%

Is temperature a real danger? Only if you are lowering a vehicle with a winch that has an inboard brake. This type of event is most likely to occur during challege events. I have never had to lower a vehicle in my experience so do not worry about this problem

Sun Damage

Untreated, both UHMWPE and X-Line will degrade in the sun and can lose as much as half their strength when exposed to direct sun for three months. Both products, however, are coated with a UV polyurethane protective coating. I'm keeping my winch line out of the sun whenever possible, but X-Line's coating will protect it. The untreated X-Line is yellow... about the same color as a sticky note. (The original color can be exposed by pulling apart the fibers.) The UV coating turns it a nice dark green.

UV degradation occurs in most plastics to a greater or lesser extent. Not considered to be a major problem in the UK A simple cover will protect from UV degradation and also keep things cleaner.

Rope Length and Extension

I opted for a 100' rope for my winch, compared to the standard 125' steel cable that ships with the XD9000i. With the shorter length, I can winch closer to the drum, giving me a better pull... more pounds with fewer electrical amps. Less rope on the drum also means I can bunch it up during a side pull without worrying about jamming the drum. If I need more cable, I reach for the 50' winch extension.

When winching I have seen a figure in the region of 20 degrees for maximum angle away from straight pull. As angle gets greater then you stand a great risk of damage to the winch rope. If you have to winch at greater angles try and arrange a deviation, or winch in shorter sections

I have 30 metres on both my winches plus a 30 metre extension line. Need further line then will use webbing strops

Rope Elongation and Stretch Myth

Winch cable backlash is a major concern for anyone working with it or close to it. A broken steel cable can be deadly. Why? We've all heard the same thing, that steel is dangerous because it stretches. And that synthetic rope, either UHMWPE or X-Line, is safe because it does not stretch. Correct? I don't think so. The danger from steel cable comes from its weight, not the stretch.

Steel stretches... as much as 1.7% elongation at break, but that's less than synthetic. Compare that to X-Line's 4.6% elongation at break (14,000 lbs. for the 5/16" dia. rope). That would make X-Line more dangerous, but it isn't. Let me dust off some book learnin' from way back. Energy is mass times velocity squared, E=MV?. The weight (M) plays a direct (not squared) role in the energy equation. The velocity (V) of the rope is a bigger factor because it's squared, yet the lighter rope just drops dead on break. There must be a physical property we're not considering. How about... what's it called... snap? Snap factor. How quickly does the elongated mass return to its original dimension when the tension is released? I'll wager steel returns to its original length almost instantly, which would create a massive acceleration in a large mass. Synthetic rope (educated guessing here) probably returns slowly. The slow acceleration and light weight create no energy. The rope drops harmlessly.

The danger from a broken winch cable has nothing to do with the weight of the cable. It has to do with the stored energy in the cable. The stored energy can be calculated from the area under the load extension curve. The shape of the curve is important as well. The extension of any rope/cable depends on many things including the material,the extension of the individual filaments and the rope/cable construction.

A synthetic polymer winch rope is made up of filaments with an extension to break of about 1% Made up into a rope the extension to break would be in the region of 3-5%. The area of load extension curve would be sort of triangular in shape.

In comparison a steel wire rope has an extension to break in the range of 10-15% (Unfortunately can not find my Bridon book) and the area under the curve is 'rectangular' in shape and whilst the strength may be lower then a sythetic rope the area under the curve is much larger. Hence the stored energy is larger.

When the rope/cable breaks this stored energy is released and it is the greater stored energy in the steel wire which is the danger.

This is also the reason why steel ropes are more forgiving to shock loads then synthetic ropes


Hope that makes sense, dont know how to put graphs up on here.

The notion that synthetic rope does not stretch has a basis in truth, I think, when compared to traditional nylon and polyester ropes. Those old-technology products have much higher stretch figures and vastly lower strengths.

UHMWPE differs here, because it stretches less than X-Line. UHMWPE has an elongation of only 0.79% at 30% of breaking strength (that's about 4,200 lbs. pull). X-Line's stretch is 1.2% at the same tension, or about 50% higher. Is the additional stretch a problem? Probably not. Remember that the synthetic rope has a much higher breaking strength than steel, so the large amount of stretch will not be seen in real life.

Ropes are designed for different purposes.

Nylon climbing ropes are made to be very stretchy. They have a large extension to break, a large area under the curve and will absorb a lot of energy. This energy absopton is important for a falling climber as it will arrest the falling climber in a 'soft' way. This type of rope is poor for prussiking on due to the high extension.

Polyester SRT (abseiling/prussiking) ropes are designed to be strong with low extension. These make poor ropes for arresting a falling climber as it will arrest the climber in a 'hard' way. The lack of elongation is important in prussiking

A nylon KERR gets its energy storing capability from the method of construction. The energy is released in the rope by extracting the stuck vehicle.


Besides the material and the construction of the rope the way the individual filaments are made is important. The more highly drawn the individual filament is then the stronger it is, the less extension to break, and the smaller the energy to break is.




Hope the above makes sense

Regards


Brendan

Originally Posted by leeds

There are many different types of synthetic winch ropes out there.

Worried about the heat problem then look at THIS

One of the problems as pointed out is damage to running it through grit/mud etc/change of slope etc. A smooth wooden fence post will that o a ZigZag The worse wear on a winch rope tends to be close to the hook end. Three metres of tubular webbing slipped over winch rope and slipped up to hook helps out with that. Also a length of tubular webbing fixed at drum end is a visual indicator that you are close to end of rope.

Synthetic ropes have many advantages and some disadvantages which have been outlined above. One disadvantage not widely know is that they are NOT very good under shock load situations. OK you should NOT shockload a winch rope but it can happen.

Vehicle being winched out decides to drive assist, gains on the winch rope, slips back down the hill and you have a shock load situation. Another situation which has occured to me is I have fixed a snatch block to an anchor vehicle so I could double line out. When driver of anchor vehicle decided he was going to snatch my vehicle out!!! Fortunately I realised his intention before any damage was done.

Steel ropes are more forgiving to shock loads but have major disadvantages.

On my 110 I have a front and rear mounted Warn 9.5XP winches.
I always tend to double line as it reduces load on winch and on winch rope. OK it halves the line speed but most time is spent setting up the recovery so extra time to winch (for me) is irrelevant. The benefit of reduced load on winch and line more then compensates for extra time taken

I carry a 30 metre extension line + snatch blocks which means I can either double line from 30 metres or do a single line pull for 60+ metres.

HTH

Regards

Brendan

Wow thanks for all the replies. So could I use the M-P Super line with the new heat protector on my cheap oh ironman winch or not?

Originally Posted by harry

some times i am amazed,
trying to recover fuel costs on a landie by making it 6 kilo's lighter, might just as well only fill the fuel tank to half - disco holds about 90ltrs, half full means a saving of around 40 kgs, but you have to stop more often, so if trying to save money, you will have to factor in the extra cost of wearing out the brake pads and rotors

Mate I was thinking out loud like around the camp fire, which is surpose to be what the general chat section is for.

By the way thanks to everyone else that tried to at least contribute to the thread without being negative or smart.